The 6 pounder.
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#1: The 6 pounder. Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:25 am
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just had a 6 pounder kill a tiger in its 2/3 shot at 200m front on, maybe it was a SP round but still i not able to penetration the 100mm/110m front armor sitting on a hedge and if it could it would be Very max of its penetration at best.

6 pounder penetration was at 500 yards 80mm my early info tells me.
6pdr Mk IV/V


sample. This was the best 6 pounder of the 7 types they made with the best ammo the british ever made for this gun in standard use APCBC 2,780fps FH 93 mm 500 yards! most did a lot less from 64mm

please clip its wings a shade

I want my my Tiger back Mark!

Tiger!

Last edited by tigercub on Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:55 am; edited 3 times in total
#2:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:37 am
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Quote:
just had a 6 pounder kill a tiger in its 2/3 shot at 200m front on, maybe it was a SP round but still i dont think it be able to penetration the 100mm/110m front armor sitting on a hedge and if it could it would be Very max

with APCR shell it could penetrate more than 140mm@500m. Fortunately for germans there r too few APCR(SP) shells available Smile.
#3:  Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:04 am
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Dima wrote:
Quote:
just had a 6 pounder kill a tiger in its 2/3 shot at 200m front on, maybe it was a SP round but still i dont think it be able to penetration the 100mm/110m front armor sitting on a hedge and if it could it would be Very max

with APCR shell it could penetrate more than 140mm@500m. Fortunately for germans there r too few APCR(SP) shells available Smile.


yes the test gun you mentioned was not used in action from what i can see about it.
#4:  Author: ronson, Location: England PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:30 am
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The early MkII versions of the 6pdr used solid (AP) shot and your figure of 80mm is probably correct.

However by 1944 the MkIV gun was being used with a variety of ammunition, among them APCR which as Dima states had a much enhanced penetration.

The most common ammunition at the time was APCBC (Armour Piercing Cap Ballistic Cap), which would penetrate 88mm at 1000yds, this being introduced in early 1943.

The APCR (Armour Piercing Composite Rigid) rounds introduced in late 1943 was very limited issue only (some sources are even doubtful it was actually issued in combat) and was replaced in June 1944 by a different type of round the APDS (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot).

The APDS and the APCBC became the standard projectiles used from that time onwards, the APDS provided greater penetration (146mm at 1000yds), however the APCBC did greater damage when it did penetrate.

One other factor which affects this is the muzzle velocity of the gun, just to show the comparison the AP shot of the MkI gun left the barrel at 2800f/s
whereas the MkIV gun using APDS achieved slightly over 4000f/s.

Hope this clarifies somewhat a complex subject Smile

Cheers
Ronson
#5:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:41 am
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Quote:
yes the test gun you mentioned was not used in action from what i can see about it.

the gun was common 6-pdr OQF 57mm Mk.IV on Mk.II carriage.
but in late spring 1944 they have started to receive APDS = Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot shell that drastically improved penetration (like 177mm@500yards).
Canadians were not supplied with APDS in June. Paras didn't have APDS either. So choose yer enemy carefully Wink.
#6:  Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:53 pm
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ronson wrote:
The early MkII versions of the 6pdr used solid (AP) shot and your figure of 80mm is probably correct.

However by 1944 the MkIV gun was being used with a variety of ammunition, among them APCR which as Dima states had a much enhanced penetration.

The most common ammunition at the time was APCBC (Armour Piercing Cap Ballistic Cap), which would penetrate 88mm at 1000yds, this being introduced in early 1943.

The APCR (Armour Piercing Composite Rigid) rounds introduced in late 1943 was very limited issue only (some sources are even doubtful it was actually issued in combat) and was replaced in June 1944 by a different type of round the APDS (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot).

The APDS and the APCBC became the standard projectiles used from that time onwards, the APDS provided greater penetration (146mm at 1000yds), however the APCBC did greater damage when it did penetrate.

One other factor which affects this is the muzzle velocity of the gun, just to show the comparison the AP shot of the MkI gun left the barrel at 2800f/s
whereas the MkIV gun using APDS achieved slightly over 4000f/s.

Hope this clarifies somewhat a complex subject Smile

Cheers
Ronson
The standard 6 pounder of june 1944 did not penetration more 70mm/90 mm tops witch is may case for a down grade of this gun.

Tiger!
#7:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:27 pm
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Quote:
The standard 6 pounder of june 1944 did not penetration more 70mm/90 mm tops witch is may case for a down grade of this gun.

as i've written already, standard 6-pdr was Mk.IV on Mk.II carriage, 57mm L/50.
By June 1944 there were 2 basis AP ammunition types: APC Shot Mk.VIIIT and APCBC Shot Mk.XT/XVT.
According to "6pdr Handbook":
APC could penetrate at 500yards 78mm@30deg vs MQA and 93mm@30deg vs FHA
APCBC could pen. at 500yards 86mm@30deg vs MQA and 97mm@30deg vs FHA.
(take in mind that most of german AVF had frontal FHA).

APDS IBT was put in production in February 1944 and issued to units in late spring 1944.
According to "6pdr Handbook":
APDS could penetrate at 500yards 138mm@30def vs MQA.

So as u can c 6pdr was able to penetrate most of german tanx with regular ammunition and could KO hvy tanx with special ammunition and bit of luck Smile.
#8: best gun. Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:51 pm
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the 57mm/6lb is without my favourite allied gun in WWII in close combat.

in CCIII RR i took out tiger 1 with little luck, even tiger II with a lot of luck, and the odd ferdinand if he turned a shade. panthers where common to take out(again luck,but better then anything apart WELL trained 85mm AA or 100mmATG.

CCV its still an awsome weapon, gjs it gets spotted a little to fast for my liking, and is easily knocked out. But get a nice surprise shot off, and its usually a good day.

i just wish the T34/57 was more widely issued, but it suffred poor barrell wear.
also if the english used the cromwell with 6lb as anti tank, not infantry support, i think allies would of benefited much better then the'dodgy' poorly manufactutred captured german 7.5cm projectiles used in british 75mm guns immediatly after invasion.(read some 1/3rd of rounds failed) likewise canadian artillery rounds due to soft earth leanding(designed to explode on solid ground,not french bog).

4000f/s is quite astonishing! stupid M3 75mm, why did they bother....

dont change this awsome gun, germans just need to use some poor infantry to find them, and morter then to pieces, then send in ur tiger while hes occupied!
#9:  Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:57 pm
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Dima wrote:
Quote:
The standard 6 pounder of june 1944 did not penetration more 70mm/90 mm tops witch is may case for a down grade of this gun.

as i've written already, standard 6-pdr was Mk.IV on Mk.II carriage, 57mm L/50.
By June 1944 there were 2 basis AP ammunition types: APC Shot Mk.VIIIT and APCBC Shot Mk.XT/XVT.
According to "6pdr Handbook":
APC could penetrate at 500yards 78mm@30deg vs MQA and 93mm@30deg vs FHA
APCBC could pen. at 500yards 86mm@30deg vs MQA and 97mm@30deg vs FHA.
(take in mind that most of german AVF had frontal FHA).

APDS IBT was put in production in February 1944 and issued to units in late spring 1944.
According to "6pdr Handbook":
APDS could penetrate at 500yards 138mm@30def vs MQA.

So as u can c 6pdr was able to penetrate most of german tanx with regular ammunition and could KO hvy tanx with special ammunition and bit of luck Smile.
he did not need any luck just aim and boom! over rated!!
#10:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:29 pm
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Quote:
he did not need any luck just aim and boom! over rated!!

ye brits were faxors, developed shell that could KO Tiger Wink unfair bastids Very Happy
#11:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:34 pm
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Ahh btw, on this pic u can c the most left Tiger, it sustained 3-4 side hits shot ftom 6-pdr. Got immob, 1 crewmember KIA.
#12:  Author: mooxe,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:49 pm
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There is a randomness in CC that will allow anything to happen. No matter how weak you make a 6pdr, and how strong you make the armour on any tank, there is always a chance it will destroy it. This is how the game is built.
#13:  Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:50 pm
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Quote:
There is a randomness in CC that will allow anything to happen. No matter how weak you make a 6pdr, and how strong you make the armour on any tank, there is always a chance it will destroy it.

like in reality Wink.
#14: weak points Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:09 pm
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Dima wrote:
Ahh btw, on this pic u can c the most left Tiger, it sustained 3-4 side hits shot ftom 6-pdr. Got immob, 1 crewmember KIA.
thats a good thing because of vision ports are much weaker than the armor.
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