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#1: firepower statistics Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:49 pm
    —
We are currently playing an H2H campaign of CC5 SDK. In order to keep track of BG strenghts and have detailed information on beginning and current forcepools, I did some data crunching on the adb files (via Access/Excel). The file we use also includes statistics on AT kill probabilities per range, facing and attacking team. The data for this is based on the armor values in the Vehicles.adb file, and on the penetration data for the various attack types (HE/AP/Heat/Smoke/Special) in the Weapons.adb file.

However, for Anti-Personnel firepower, I'm not sure which adb file and which column to use. The Weapons.adb file includes HE/AP/Heat/Smoke/Special penetration data, but is one of these also used for AP firepower? Alternatively, the Soldiers.adb file also includes weapons data, but there is no range indicated.

So, anybody knows where exactly I can find attack values for weapons vs infantry?

Any help is appreciated,
Regards,

Roel
#2: mmmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:15 am
    —
Quote:
The Weapons.adb file includes HE/AP/Heat/Smoke/Special penetration data, but is one of these also used for AP firepower? Alternatively, the Soldiers.adb file also includes weapons data, but there is no range indicated.


In the soldiers adb they have a weapon nominated.
Simply refer to the weapon number in weapons adb to find its range and probabilty to hit so on.
#3: Infantry Firepower Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:48 pm
    —
ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
The Weapons.adb file includes HE/AP/Heat/Smoke/Special penetration data, but is one of these also used for AP firepower? Alternatively, the Soldiers.adb file also includes weapons data, but there is no range indicated.


In the soldiers adb they have a weapon nominated.
Simply refer to the weapon number in weapons adb to find its range and probabilty to hit so on.


Lord4war, thanks for your reply.

However, my questions was a bit more specific: which column in the weapons.adb is used to indicate anti-infantry firepower? I thought that the AP/HE/Heat/Smoke & Special Kill Rating columns indicate the mm of steel that can be penetrated at a given range? (to be checked vs vehicle armor to obtain kill probabilities)
When looking at the data for small arms, it looks like only the AP column is used (except for grenade-type weapons with HE capability).

Can anybody confirm that the AP Kill Ratings are indeed used for both armor-piercing (AP) steel penetration (for guns) and anti-personnel (AP) firepower (for small arms)?

If this is the case, this raises another question: infantry AT-weapons only use the AP column as well, and they have AP values in the range of 10 times the values for small arms. What happens if that weapon is used against infantry? Does it fire with the same AP value as well? With that rating, it would be firing with the Deadstar at those poor guys Laughing
Or do infantry AT-weapons just not fire at infantry?

Any comments are appreciated!
Regards,

Roel
#4: mmmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:20 pm
    —
Quote:
Can anybody confirm that the AP Kill Ratings are indeed used for both armor-piercing (AP) steel penetration (for guns) and anti-personnel (AP) firepower (for small arms)?


That is indeed how it is used in most mods.

Quote:
I thought that the AP/HE/Heat/Smoke & Special Kill Rating columns indicate the mm of steel that can be penetrated at a given range? (to be checked vs vehicle armor to obtain kill probabilities)


no they dont all work like that.

Quote:
However, my questions was a bit more specific: which column in the weapons.adb is used to indicate anti-infantry firepower?


do u mean onto the team data on the screen in game?

Quote:
When looking at the data for small arms, it looks like only the AP column is used (except for grenade-type weapons with HE capability).


Well it is all modders choice,but most have flame and AT devices which use spec and heat type ammo.

Quote:
If this is the case, this raises another question: infantry AT-weapons only use the AP column as well, and they have AP values in the range of 10 times the values for small arms. What happens if that weapon is used against infantry? Does it fire with the same AP value as well? With that rating, it would be firing with the Deadstar at those poor guys Laughing


Well thats what modding will teach you.Looking forward to how u sort it out,keep us informed.
#5: Re: mmmm Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:06 am
    —
Thanks very much Lord4War, it has definitely become a bit clearer now!

ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
I thought that the AP/HE/Heat/Smoke & Special Kill Rating columns indicate the mm of steel that can be penetrated at a given range? (to be checked vs vehicle armor to obtain kill probabilities)


no they dont all work like that.


What others ways are there to use the Kill Ratings and Armor data?
For our H2H campaigns, we use an Excel sheet with vehicle kill probabilities measured as Kill Rating vs Armor values. (I've included it as an attachment; this one is for SDK v1.2 H2H). From experience, I know that the results correspond closely to the color of the target circle you see during the game.
I'm curious to know however how, once a hit is scored, CC5 determines the amount of damage done. But I would think that, apart from Kill Ratings and Armor values, there are no other major factors to be taken into account (besides maybe vehicle integrity and crew protection values).

ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
[
Quote:
However, my questions was a bit more specific: which column in the weapons.adb is used to indicate anti-infantry firepower?


do u mean onto the team data on the screen in game?


Yes. But I would also like to know how CC5 determines what happens when a hit is achieved, in others words how are kill results calculated?
My guess is that it is a comparison between AP Kill Ratings and Soldier Armor, with Terrain protection values also playing a part. Any ideas on that?

ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
When looking at the data for small arms, it looks like only the AP column is used (except for grenade-type weapons with HE capability).


Well it is all modders choice,but most have flame and AT devices which use spec and heat type ammo.


That seems to be the most logical solution to me.


ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
If this is the case, this raises another question: infantry AT-weapons only use the AP column as well, and they have AP values in the range of 10 times the values for small arms. What happens if that weapon is used against infantry? Does it fire with the same AP value as well? With that rating, it would be firing with the Deadstar at those poor guys Laughing


Well thats what modding will teach you.Looking forward to how u sort it out,keep us informed.


Smile My modding ambitions are pretty modest. Although I am playing with the idea of working on a Wacht am Rhein mod (I was not too enthousiastic about Nomada's CCVAO). Map making is not my thing, but a new strategic map (covering more of the Ardennes area) and accurate OOBs should be within my capabilities...We'll see Laughing
The purpose of my question was more to satisfy the hunger for information when playing an H2H campaign. Knowing the attack value of your units is pretty important and comparing game data with your 'gut feeling' sometimes leads to surprises.
In our current campaign, we also keep track of all BG strengths in order to make an informed decision on where to use your BGs. This works well and actually doesn't require too much time.
During our next campaign, we will use current BG strenghts to determine the number of teams participating in the battle. IMO, one of the disadvantages of CC5 is that tactical battles rarely reflect numerical advantage (15 teams regardless of BG strength). This puts a premium on attrition tactics during a campaign and disencourages the use of concentration & shock. Reflecting numerical odds during a tactical battle IMO would force a major change in tactics for both attacker and defender...

Cheers,

Roel

CC5 SDK Vehicle Kill Probabilities.rar
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#6:  Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:21 pm
    —
And an additional question:

If the Weapons.adb file is used for anti-infantry firepower, what is the purpose of the Crewed Weapon, Primary Weapon, etc columns in the Soldier.adb file?

Cheers,

Roel
#7:  Author: KGPeiper, Location: Poland PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:43 pm
    —
Roel wrote:
And an additional question:

If the Weapons.adb file is used for anti-infantry firepower, what is the purpose of the Crewed Weapon, Primary Weapon, etc columns in the Soldier.adb file?

Cheers,

Roel


those columns are showing which weapon are crewed, primary etc. for particulary soldier, aren't they? F.e. - Bazooka operator is caring a Bazooka(as crewed weapon), M1a1 Carbine (as primary weapon) and one granade...
#8: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:02 am
    —
Quote:
For our H2H campaigns, we use an Excel sheet with vehicle kill probabilities measured as Kill Rating vs Armor values. From experience, I know that the results correspond closely to the color of the target circle you see during the game.
I'm curious to know however how, once a hit is scored, CC5 determines the amount of damage done. But I would think that, apart from Kill Ratings and Armor values, there are no other major factors to be taken into account (besides maybe vehicle integrity and crew protection values).


Well elements play a massive effect,but have been dumbed down in the stock version,and most mods.But still affect outcomes.
#9: Re: mmm Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:45 am
    —
ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
For our H2H campaigns, we use an Excel sheet with vehicle kill probabilities measured as Kill Rating vs Armor values. From experience, I know that the results correspond closely to the color of the target circle you see during the game.
I'm curious to know however how, once a hit is scored, CC5 determines the amount of damage done. But I would think that, apart from Kill Ratings and Armor values, there are no other major factors to be taken into account (besides maybe vehicle integrity and crew protection values).


Well elements play a massive effect,but have been dumbed down in the stock version,and most mods.But still affect outcomes.


I suppose you mean that Elements influence the 'to hit' process. I'm not sure however if and how they influence the 'to kill' process. Once a hit is achieved, terrain shouldn't matter any longer.
#10: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:09 am
    —
Quote:
I suppose you mean that Elements influence the 'to hit' process. I'm not sure however if and how they influence the 'to kill' process. Once a hit is achieved, terrain shouldn't matter any longer.


suppose nothing Roel.
its the fastest way to learn.
and when coded correctly terrain always matters.
just like in real life.
#11: Re: mmm Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:46 am
    —
ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
I suppose you mean that Elements influence the 'to hit' process. I'm not sure however if and how they influence the 'to kill' process. Once a hit is achieved, terrain shouldn't matter any longer.


suppose nothing Roel.
its the fastest way to learn.
and when coded correctly terrain always matters.
just like in real life.


Yes, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Laughing

Sounds very misterious... but the young Padwan would very much like to know this:

* are the processes of 'hitting' and 'determining damage' separated?
* what is known about the to hit/to kill algorithms used by the game?
* in which way terrain matters to both processes?

Any modder's thought is greatly appreciated!

Roel
#12:  Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:49 am
    —
KGPeiper wrote:
Roel wrote:
And an additional question:

If the Weapons.adb file is used for anti-infantry firepower, what is the purpose of the Crewed Weapon, Primary Weapon, etc columns in the Soldier.adb file?

Cheers,

Roel


those columns are showing which weapon are crewed, primary etc. for particulary soldier, aren't they? F.e. - Bazooka operator is caring a Bazooka(as crewed weapon), M1a1 Carbine (as primary weapon) and one granade...


You're right. I forgot that the info is available in the CC5 data workbook.

Thanks for the info & regards,

Roel
#13: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:04 am
    —
Quote:
Yes, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Laughing

Sounds very misterious... but the young Padwan would very much like to know this:

* are the processes of 'hitting' and 'determining damage' separated?
* what is known about the to hit/to kill algorithms used by the game?
* in which way terrain matters to both processes?


only processes u need worry bout now
is about becoming a fully fledged Jedi
then i shall reveal all to you my son! Razz
#14: Re: mmm Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:21 pm
    —
ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
Yes, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Laughing

Sounds very misterious... but the young Padwan would very much like to know this:

* are the processes of 'hitting' and 'determining damage' separated?
* what is known about the to hit/to kill algorithms used by the game?
* in which way terrain matters to both processes?


only processes u need worry bout now
is about becoming a fully fledged Jedi
then i shall reveal all to you my son! Razz


But Master, I am ready! The Force is strong in me, and the Alliance needs all the help it can get! Knowing how to hit and kill and AT-AT with my Snowspeeder benefits to us all!
So teach me, I prey teach me or we'll all become Banta fodder Laughing

By the way, I had forgotten about http://users.stargate.net/~mcconmy/probability.htm. Very detailed info, the only problem is that I don't know if everything is correct or that some parts are still speculative... do you?

Cheers,

Roel
#15: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:25 pm
    —
Quote:
By the way, I had forgotten about http://users.stargate.net/~mcconmy/probability.htm. Very detailed info, the only problem is that I don't know if everything is correct or that some parts are still speculative... do you?


why dont u just post it on this website if it benefits us all?
i would browse over it.
#16: Re: mmm Author: Roel,  PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:30 pm
    —
ANZAC_Lord4war wrote:
Quote:
By the way, I had forgotten about http://users.stargate.net/~mcconmy/probability.htm. Very detailed info, the only problem is that I don't know if everything is correct or that some parts are still speculative... do you?


why dont u just post it on this website if it benefits us all?
i would browse over it.


I'm not sure what you mean???
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