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Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote: |
PJ
I'm a big fan of both SDK as well as SOC. Excellent job. I do have one request to make that I KNOW several others share as well. I realize the principal design of these mods is for single play vs the AI. And I respect your desires as the mod maker in keeping true to that intention. BUT, there are many of us who likewise enjoy playing multiplayer head to head (h2h). Would it be possible to create a submod that would better facilitate h2h play? Something that evens out the ammo and morale or at least makes it possible for German counteroffensives? I'm not a mod maker so I have no idea how difficult it is to achieve this, but it would be greatly appreciated by many. One other observation. H2H play arguably brings a lot more visibility to a mod because the clans will use it in wars and the creation of extensive AAR's that everyone enjoys reading. Again thanks to you and any other contributors for making an excellent mod and keeping the CC interest alive. Pzt_Kevin_dtn [/b] |
pzjager wrote: |
2) You are right. I am not an H2H player, so I don't know what the H2H players are expecting. 3) I am really interested to know what you would like to improve in the H2H mods. Please be more precise: do you want both sides with up-to-ten units? Equal morale? Equal ammo? Something else? I amreally interested in that and will look carefully to your comments. The only limit here is that I will never, for instance, give full ammo to the germans by january 10th..... It would be ridiculous or just arcade. Cheers, friend PJ |
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote: | ||
I will solicit some input from Pzt and get back to you with a response. Please note that h2h play does not always engage historical ops or campaigns. We are mainly interested in creating a balanced op where opposing forces both have a shot at victory. Its difficult to do that when one side starts with an ammo and/or morale disadvantage. I'll be in touch. |
pzjager wrote: |
Hi Roel, Ok, there are two diffrent points innyour comments, so I will dissociate them for better understanding: 1) H2H Play. It seems to me, when reading your message (Kevin's one as well) that you would like to have a H2H version without historical accuracy, something like I would personaly define as ARCADE. Hence, two comments, not only for you but to the attention of all H2H players: a) We, the moders, are really wasting our time if you are just looking for mods where the two sides have exactly the same ammo, same morale etc.... One one game seems sufficient, under these conditions!! Let's say GJS for instance! What is in my mind interesting in modding is JUST to create mods where, AS HISTORICALLY, there is no real balance between the two sides, so that one of the sides has to play with an HANDICAP, which can be more or less severe (I admit that in SOC, it is very severe!). |
pzjager wrote: |
b) You say that you lost your campaign after 11 rounds.... In my opinion, a game (video, cards of any other kind) is interesting if you run the risk of loosing!! Is it really interesting playing a game when you are 100% sure that you will win??? |
pzjager wrote: |
It was JUST what was wrong with 90% of the mods until today! I remember having read 10000000000 times on CC forums complaints like: "Oh, this silly CC5 is not interesting because the AI is bad and the game is ridiculously easy". And now that you have a mod which is difficult, same players complaint "Ah, it is too difficult, I can't win"!!! What do you want exactly? |
pzjager wrote: |
2) Regarding the AI of SOC, ONCE AGAIN what you say is purely the fruit of your imagination, Roel. As you say YOURSELF, you have been searching in my files to see what could create what you feel have seen. You did not find anything just because there isn't anything! I HATE cheating mods like some I have seen on CC for years (I will not name them by charity). What you feel is a very common feeling when a player looses a game (here as well, it can be video game, cards or any other one): he says that the opponent is cheating! This is very common thing, just because it is human. Once again, you are completly false, and I will even tell you that, if you look carefully at the files, the german AT guns have a better accuracy than the russian ones, as they had historically. The only disanvantage of the germans is just that they fatigue more quickly than the russians, and herre again it is here something historical as these guys were starving to death. |
pzjager wrote: |
3) Just a comment about experience of Germans and Russians. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU when you say that the experience of the germans might be higher. HOWEVER, AND IT IS CODED IN CC, IT IS NOT MY FAULT, it is not possible to dissociate experience and morale when moding CC. If you code one unit as experienced, it will AUTOMATICALLY be set as at least good morale in the game, EVEN IF YOU CODE THIS UNIT AS 5 in experience and 0 in morale in GETeams.adb.... If you don't believe me, try it and you will see. |
pzjager wrote: |
4) Now, for the future: a) If there is a real demand for having a more balanced ammo level in the H2H version, I can do a submod with a slightly better ammo for the germans (let's say 50% instead of the current 30%). I am currently doing the GERMANVETMOD (yes, harder!) of SOC, so I could take opportunity to launch the two submods at the same time with version 1.1: - A GERVET MOD for those who are not afraid to loose - An H2H submod for those who want a more arcade play. |
pzjager wrote: |
b) Regarding increasing the "weight" of some maps (increasing number and importance of VL's on these maps) is a VERY GOOD IDEA. I will think about it. |
pzjager wrote: |
c) creating a campaign where all the russians attack from one side (the right one, by definition). You can already do it with the scenario editor.... It will just not be historical, but it seems that it is not really important for you, so... Cheers PJ |
pzjager wrote: |
2) You are right. I am not an H2H player, so I don't know what the H2H players are expecting. 3) I am really interested to know what you would like to improve in the H2H mods. Please be more precise: do you want both sides with up-to-ten units? Equal morale? Equal ammo? Something else? I amreally interested in that and will look carefully to your comments. The only limit here is that I will never, for instance, give full ammo to the germans by january 10th..... It would be ridiculous or just arcade. Cheers, friend PJ |
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote: | ||
Ok I have made some inquiries in Pzt regarding h2h play for SDK AND SOC. NOTE THAT THIS IS FOR AN H2H SUBMOD ONLY and has no impact on the core mod. But let me make a few comments first on h2h play. This is strictly my opinion but I believe it is widely shared. 1. H2H play is NOTHING like playing the AI so there really is little comparison. As such, I don't think the requirements of h2h play should be measured against how the AI plays. 2. H2H play looks for the ability for either side to win. No one wants to fight a battle or custom op knowing that they will lose. SOC and SDK, both of which are AWESOME mods, it is assumed that the Germans will lose because of ammo and morale settings. That being the case, it is terribly difficult if not impossible to make a custom op with sufficient balance to allow for a possible German victory. And, due to the German Ammo/Morale, there is considerable limitations on the design of custom ops. You can really only design for a German defense. 3. If people are interested in playing the historical GC's or Ops with historical settings, then they can use the standard mod and don't need an h2h submod. Custom Scenario's are rarely if ever based on historical models but are designed for balance and intense fighting between opposing human opponents. That being said, following are the Pzt responses. 1. Ammo, Ammo, Ammo for the German side. As it stands right now, if the Germans wish to make any type of assault, they have to wait until half way through a battle before even attempting an assault or counterassault because they run into the problem of running out of Ammo. With this being the case it is difficult to create custom ops with a German offensive. 2. Morale - this might be a more serious issue in SOC than in SDK. It seems that units are more prone to surrender and fatigue. This is a considerable handicap for the German side. 3. Rocket Launchers - it was commented that rocket launchers play TOO significant of a role in the game play. It was suggested that maybe they should only be available on a recruit setting. -*- Kevin's opinion on the Rocket Launchers - If necessary we can always design an op with rules banning the use of such Rocket Launchers if we feel it necessary for the balance of an h2h op. So in summary, Ammo is the critical component and we request that it be set to full. Morale is a secondary item of consideration. The rocket launchers can be worked with from a rules standpoint. We don't think anything else needs to be adjusted. The maps are great, the unit counts and composition are just fine and workable, and the hit/kill ratios seem to be good (*edit - see question below). So taking all the above into consideration, let me reemphasize again that h2h play looks for balance. I realize the Ammo request runs contrary to historical design but we really need the balance to have the flexibility in design and to give the Germans a shot at assaulting and winning. This is only a request for the h2h submod and should have no impact on the core mod. I've told you on many an occassion that both SOC and SDK are fantastic mods and I really appreciate all the time and talent that went into their creation. I do hope you take our h2h requests into consideration. *Edit - question on SDK - it seems that the Germans are not as effective in SDK as they are in SOC. Is there a reason for this? Did you update or improve something for the Germans in SOC that you have not gone back to address in SDK yet? |
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