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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#1: Harder AI? Author: carcass,

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:07 pm
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It seems that I always wax the computer in CC5. I always get battles where I have 4-10 casualties and the enemy gets 80-110. I never lose or stalemate. I used editors to mod it and make it more difficult. I've fought them undermanned and outgunned. I've fought them as the attacker, as the defender, and I've fought battles where both sides are the attackers. I added sections of infantry with 10 soldiers and I made the computer's battlegroup 5 charisma, 5 morale, 5 tactics, and I still always slaughter them. Is there anyway to make the AI more difficult without just loading them up with more firepower and tanks?

#2: Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:42 pm
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Dude, let me help you through this. It appears that you have come to a conclusion that many of us have experienced at one time or another in our CC careers. Here it is... ready?

THE AI IS WORTHLESS AND A WASTE OF TIME TO PLAY.

SOC, Der Kessel, and Karelia2 are about the only mods designed for single play and worth fighting the AI. IMHO all others should be played H2H.

Come fight a human opponent in Gamespy. There are 20 of us logged in there now. Play a human and you'll never want to play the AI again.

#3: Author: carcass,

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:10 pm
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Well that's too bad because I have a Mac and a PC. My Mac is the one with internet, and my PC is just some old PIII that I play Dos games on. I'll check out the mods, thanks.

#4: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:13 pm
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Yeah H2H is the solution.
But some of us still spend more time playing against the AI (where you can play anytime, anywhere).

For attacking AI...coding infantry as vehicles helps (although Pzjager is against this...haha). This works better for non urban battles...in urban battles with big building interiors...the 'infantry as vehicles' cannot enter buildings.

I believe PJ is working on map coding secrets to improve AI behaviour (my guess is coding the maps to help the AI pathfinding).
Map coding and some infantry coded as vehicles (to avoid the crawl to death mode) and experimentation with VL locations is the answer to AI improvement.

The tanks/vehicles will still perform poorly though.

The defending AI sucks...mostly because the AI do not setup...just deploying units at random (and usually at the same locations each battle).

#5: Author: mikwarleo,

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:40 pm
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carcass wrote:

Well that's too bad because I have a Mac and a PC. My Mac is the one with internet, and my PC is just some old PIII that I play Dos games on. I'll check out the mods, thanks.

your P3 will be more than enough for H2H cc5 -- if you can be bothered organising internet to it. H2H is 100 times better than single player...

#6: Re: Harder AI? Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:00 am
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carcass wrote:

It seems that I always wax the computer in CC5. I always get battles where I have 4-10 casualties and the enemy gets 80-110. I never lose or stalemate. I used editors to mod it and make it more difficult. I've fought them undermanned and outgunned. I've fought them as the attacker, as the defender, and I've fought battles where both sides are the attackers. I added sections of infantry with 10 soldiers and I made the computer's battlegroup 5 charisma, 5 morale, 5 tactics, and I still always slaughter them. Is there anyway to make the AI more difficult without just loading them up with more firepower and tanks?

Play SOC against the russian AI, man.

You will not get this kind of results. YOU WILL LOOOOOSE YOUR CAMPAIGN

Cheers
PJ

#7: Author: carcass,

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:52 pm
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squadleader_id wrote:

For attacking AI...coding infantry as vehicles helps

What if I set their type to "assault engineers"? What exactly are assault engineers supposed to do?

#8: Re: Harder AI? Author: carcass,

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:56 pm
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pzjager wrote:

Play SOC against the russian AI, man.

You will not get this kind of results. YOU WILL LOOOOOSE YOUR CAMPAIGN

Cheers
PJ

If only I knew how to install mods. I mean I'm not totally retarded, but I screwed something up when trying to install the videos.

#9: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:55 am
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carcass wrote:

squadleader_id wrote:

For attacking AI...coding infantry as vehicles helps

What if I set their type to "assault engineers"? What exactly are assault engineers supposed to do?

Coding them as Vehicles will make infantry move fast (run) when assaulting...the other Infantry types tend to crawl when moving (CC5 AI fault).

#10: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:38 am
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squadleader_id wrote:

carcass wrote:

squadleader_id wrote:

For attacking AI...coding infantry as vehicles helps

What if I set their type to "assault engineers"? What exactly are assault engineers supposed to do?

Coding them as Vehicles will make infantry move fast (run) when assaulting...the other Infantry types tend to crawl when moving (CC5 AI fault).

Be careful, however. You have to use this tip selectively. If you code all the infantry as vehicles:

1) The command units loose their ability to give morale to other troops
2) recon teams do not recon anymore
3) The most important: These units cannot enter into the buildings any more.....

Once again, making the game more difficult needs to work on the map files.

PJ

#11: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:12 am
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pzjager wrote:

Be careful, however. You have to use this tip selectively. If you code all the infantry as vehicles:

1) The command units loose their ability to give morale to other troops

Yup...most of the TT_VetBoB inspired Vetmods are coded this way.
We need to find a way to solve this...maybe coding them as Command HalfTrack?

Quote:

2) recon teams do not recon anymore

True, but recon units in CC5 do not function properly.
AFAIK recon units are supposed to scout ahead to find the enemy, when scouts find enemy units...they're supposed to engage/skirmish the enemy and wait for the rest of the Platoon/Company. In CC5, recon units tend to just scout ahead and attack/assault enemy units like kamikaze squads.

Quote:

3) The most important: These units cannot enter into the buildings any more.....

VL placement/relocation to the outside/edge of buildings and making most bulidings have huge gaping holes in the wall might be the solution.

Quote:

Once again, making the game more difficult needs to work on the map files.

PJ

Yes...please continue your research into this, PJ!

#12: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:41 am
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squadleader_id wrote:

pzjager wrote:

Be careful, however. You have to use this tip selectively. If you code all the infantry as vehicles:

1) The command units loose their ability to give morale to other troops

Yup...most of the TT_VetBoB inspired Vetmods are coded this way.
We need to find a way to solve this...maybe coding them as Command HalfTrack?

Quote:

2) recon teams do not recon anymore

Quote:

3) The most important: These units cannot enter into the buildings any more.....

VL placement/relocation to the outside/edge of buildings and making most bulidings have huge gaping holes in the wall might be the solution.

Quote:

Once again, making the game more difficult needs to work on the map files.

PJ

Yes...please continue your research into this, PJ!

Hi SL,

Regarding the recon teams, I agree with you that don't function at 100%, they are useful because they have the ability to see the enemy better than any other unit. Then, if you well do your .los file, with the proper configuration, they are more important than you feel.

Regarding the buildings, I am sorry but having only one side able to enter the buildings is a nonsense... Placing the VL outside the buildings will not fix this issue.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that you forget something very important: CC5 has been made with the same AI than CC4! in CC5, the AI should be offensive but, for that reason, he is DEFENSIVE! That's why the AI of CC5 is poor.
That's also why the TT's tips are OK for a CC4 game like BoB, but are not as good in a CC5 mod ( In addition, the buildings in CC4 are very small, so there isn't a real issue if the AI soldiers cannot enter the buildings; in big buildings like the one in SDK or SOC....).

As a matter of summary, I can only tell you that I stay on my positions: use the TT's tips selectively, and don't generalise them to all your units. I would not like that you kill your upcoming BoS...

And never forget what I tell you again: .los and .btd's have to be very carefully made.

Cheers
PJ

#13: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:28 pm
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Playing the offensive side while letting the AI defend is certainly a more optimal setting...eventhough the AI do not set up his units...his defensive capabilities isn't great...but will give the average players enough challenge.
The thing is, people will sometime want to play the defenders in CC5...and TT_VetbBoB style of vehicle coded infantry works well for non urban maps.
The VetMod for the vanilla CC5 works well since Normandy is mostly villages.

Mixing vehicle coded infantry with normal coded infantry doesn't work too well...the 'infantry' will go inside buildings and get themselves killed while the 'vehicles' are stuck to hanging around outside while their comrades are getting massacred Smile

We're just experimenting with VetMod settings for BoS45...the problem is none of the mod team members are dedicated map makers...so we don't have the luxury of tweaking the map coding extensively like what you did with SDK and SOC. Thanks for input, PJ!

#14: Author: John3,

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:39 pm
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I'm just curious if anybody knows what the 6th line down on the Map.txt file is? I'm assuming it's
0 for german offensive
1 for allied offensive and
2 for meeting engagement.

I know that the 5th line down is for weather,
1 is light mud
2 is deep mud
3 is light snow and
4 is deep snow

Does coding the elements differently in the elements.txt file help with A.I. aggressiveness? For example, would making the light snowy field element similar to tall grass help?

#15: Author: flick,

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:29 pm
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Did close combat modern tactics have improved AI?

#16: Author: pzjager, Location: Paris

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:14 pm
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flick wrote:

Did close combat modern tactics have improved AI?

AFAIK, CCMT is only for H2H, so AI is not important

PJ

#17: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:00 pm
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Although CCMT includes the 5 v 5 multiplayer option you can play vs the AI.

The AI has been tweaked/improved over earlier versions of CC.

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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