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CCMT Walk through walls elements mod by thecaptain

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#1: CCMT Walk through walls elements mod by thecaptain Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:30 am
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Move and Shoot Through Walls mod for Close Combat: Modern Tactics

http://www.closecombatonline.com/CSO/index.php?name=CmodsDownload&file=index&req=viewsdownload&sid=239&orderby=dateD

by The Captain
steve.caires [at] gmail [dot] com

Last modified June 04, 2008

Description:
This modification allows infantry to move and shoot through walls like they could in Close Combat 3. It modifies the elements.txt file from CCMT, and uses replacement values from Close Combat 3 for walls.

I have played Close Combat 3 for a few years, quite enjoying the multiplayer aspect. I boguht CCMT to have a similar experience, but updated with modern equipment. The difficulties in urban combat surprised me, because my troops could not move or shoot through walls, but were also not smart enough to reliably seek openings from which to shoot or move through. This edited file re-enables that ability. While it is clearly unrealistic behavior in a literal sense, I believe that soldiers would be able to find or make openings in urban combat. This mod gives them that ability. Enjoy!

Thanks to:
-'Senior Drill' on the Matrix forums for saying that these factors were controlled by elements.txt
-CC3 developers for commenting their elements.txt file
-Strategy 3 Tactics and Matrix Games for an awesome new version of CC!

#2: Re: CCMT Walk through walls elements mod by thecaptain Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:04 am
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schrecken wrote:

Move and Shoot Through Walls mod for Close Combat: Modern Tactics

http://www.closecombatonline.com/CSO/index.php?name=CmodsDownload&file=index&req=viewsdownload&sid=239&orderby=dateD

by The Captain
steve.caires [at] gmail [dot] com

Last modified June 04, 2008

Description:
This modification allows infantry to move and shoot through walls like they could in Close Combat 3. It modifies the elements.txt file from CCMT, and uses replacement values from Close Combat 3 for walls.

I have played Close Combat 3 for a few years, quite enjoying the multiplayer aspect. I boguht CCMT to have a similar experience, but updated with modern equipment. The difficulties in urban combat surprised me, because my troops could not move or shoot through walls, but were also not smart enough to reliably seek openings from which to shoot or move through. This edited file re-enables that ability. While it is clearly unrealistic behavior in a literal sense, I believe that soldiers would be able to find or make openings in urban combat. This mod gives them that ability. Enjoy!

Thanks to:
-'Senior Drill' on the Matrix forums for saying that these factors were controlled by elements.txt
-CC3 developers for commenting their elements.txt file
-Strategy 3 Tactics and Matrix Games for an awesome new version of CC!

Now that I have a lot of CCMT games under my belt. I can seriously say that this element mod is really not needed. I found the ORIGINAL element file to be much more fun even in the Urban areas.

#3: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:13 am
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I agree

#4: Re: CCMT Walk through walls elements mod by thecaptain Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:27 pm
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Stwa wrote:

Now that I have a lot of CCMT games under my belt. I can seriously say that this element mod is really not needed. I found the ORIGINAL element file to be much more fun even in the Urban areas.

I would find it more fun if the AI would be more intelligent. If it could do things like putting MG by the window, not by the wall where it can't do anything.

#5: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:57 pm
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Really? In the urban maps?
Soldiers that abort movement when 'slightly' shot at...soldiers that can't find their way around walls...soldiers that can't find doors and windows...and then teams that get separated because half the personel is stuck outside a house looking for a way in. Real fun! Wink

#6: Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:05 pm
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Yeah, not getting lost in a single room house would be good too Very Happy

#7: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:57 am
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Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:10 am; edited 2 times in total

#8: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:08 am
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Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total

#9: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:15 am
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Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total

#10: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:30 am
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Stwa

I like the cut of your jib.

I find troops rarely , if ever, get lost, they always find their way to their team.

I find entering a building through a door and maybe a window strangely normal.

I like improved, realistic, paths taken by infantry to move from point A to point B... maybe even running around a house rather than through it... sort of like I do when i want to go form the front to the back of my place when in a hurry.

The non see through wall aren't without their problems eg knocking out a spy hole etc, but I find it more realistic than earlier versions of CC.

Funny how some C5 maps have no doors or windows... I had to code plenty in in some of the converted maps.

#11: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:33 am
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Well...I suppose if you like to play without any time limits set...you can tolerate the 10-15 minutes troops need figuring out how to enter a house and setup their equipment Wink

Seriously...this is the 10+ year old CC engine with some minor tweaks we're talking about. Without major overhaul of the codes...CC soldiers are just gonna struggle with solid walls.
Realistic...sure...but fun...different strokes for different folks Smile

As for the "Girlie Soldiers(TM)" AI...sure this is more realistic...but for gameplay sakes...it's a pain to have to keep clicking and re-issuing orders when your troops go to ground.
Maybe if the code is re-written so that when the girls abort movement...you can then give them new movement orders that don't get cancelled out again every few seconds when they get shot at or see enemy girls. The new movement orders/waypoints should stay in place...the girls won't immediately move...they should cower and try to find cover before moving...or maybe just freeze in terror...but players should not have to keep clicking to get them to move...that's just bad game design (and it eventually wears down your mouse buttons Very Happy

).

The CC engine has its limitations and abstractions. If you really must have solid walls...then why do you still put up with the abstractions of CC building levels and how soldiers automatically occupy upper floors through see through stairs? Wink

#12: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:57 am
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Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total

#13: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:13 am
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Stwa wrote:

squadleader_id wrote:

Seriously...this is the 10+ year old CC engine with some minor tweaks we're talking about. Without major overhaul of the codes...CC soldiers are just gonna struggle with solid walls.

I am NOT seeing soldiers "struggle" will solid walls in my game. Be sure any custom map is using elements supported by CCMT.

Most little CC soldiers are confused when they suddenly find that walls are now solid entities Wink

Try the urban maps with lots of buildings close together Wink

Quote:

squadleader_id wrote:

but players should not have to keep clicking to get them to move...that's just bad game design (and it eventually wears down your mouse buttons Very Happy

NO ITS NOT. Be sure you give good waypoints to your movement order, so that troops won't come under immediate fire when they start moving. BTW, my mouse buttons are fine.

Try retreating out of harms way...say to the back of a house while under fire...see how many clicks it takes to move the girls Wink

Quote:

squadleader_id wrote:

then why do you still put up with the abstractions of CC building levels and how soldiers automatically occupy upper floors through see through stairs? Wink

No Problem with that here. Are you having a beeg problem with that too. Maybe you should try some other games. Idea

No probs here...no probs with non solid walls here either Wink

And I am already busy with other games...they're called CC3, CC4, CC5 and sometimes also CoI and CCWAR (=girlie soldiers galore...but walls are thankfully not solid Wink

#14: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:25 am
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BTW...a bit more about units aborting movement when slightly under fire or seeing enemy girls.
Don't you find it a bit annoying that vehicles quickly stop moving when fired at...and loose their designated complex waypoints?
If the developers wanted the game to implement this 'more realistic behaviour'...then at least make changes in the AI so vehicles automatically reverse to find cover instead of stopping and presenting a solitary target to enemy AT girl teams Smile

At least the girlie soldiers try to crawl into cover after aborting movement orders...

#15: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:27 am
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in regards to the solid walls
i have been playing this style for a few years now and cannot and will not go back to the shoot thru run thru walls style.
use heavy weapons to knock em down (provided walls have good coding)
even tnt that can be used against terrain(walls).
with game u r mentioning did map coders bother to code windows in correctly?
quite sensible to have a wider doorway coded in as well on ground floors
i dont code doors on 2 story or higher buildings it gives too good a los into the building.
just use 2nd floor windows and code them slower to cross this can replicate having to use imaginary stairwell or ropes to get in
also stops u rushing a large team in and overwhelming defence with unrealistic attack,with narrow windows the troops have to get in 1 or 2 at a time.
its murder if a 2man team defending building with smg is just sitting there waiting for you
u need to use a ground and pound type offense then rush in when there shellshocked.
same with assaulting out of a 2 story building the team cannot rush out quickly.
i usually blow one half of building out to get in
then when i want to keep assaulting run out of rear of building (the way i came in) run around building and into next,as team will stay together more easily as well as have cover of 2 story building and they can rush next building as a complete squad,provided u have made a good entrance into next building with ur tanks or even a bazooka can achieve this aim for u.
when coded correctly u knock the 2nd floor walls,windows down u will get better los to more members of the enemy team.

#16: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:39 am
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Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:12 am; edited 2 times in total

#17: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:40 am
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Hi, ANZAC_Lord4war!
Good to hear from you again...I though you were MIA!

I must admit I haven't tried your D-Day Utah Sector mod with solid walls coding...so I'm as much of a rookie at this as my beloved tiny CC soldiers at finding doors and windows Smile

But my experience with CCMT solid walls left me with a sour after taste Wink

#18: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:51 am
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Stwa wrote:

All we have done with all this posting is establish the fact that YOU DONT LIKE solid walls.

How did you figure that out? Wink

And I think we can also establish the fact that you're one of the 3 people that love CCMT to death? Wink

Quote:

But troops are NOT CONFUSED or LOST, NOT STUGGLING, THEY DONT take fifteen minutes in and out of structures, and TANK movment is fine. The game is basically for COIN missions, so use tanks accordingly.

Try the Gazwah (spl?) map...
And it's cool that you don't find tank movement to be a problem...maybe I'm just to lazy to keep trying to reset waypoints for these tanks with lady drivers.

Quote:

Besides, as I mentioned in another thread, I have coded AI tanks to mortar halftracks, because I can.

So that makes them hang around in the back so that our tanks can move about without too many aborts because they never run into enemy tanks? Smile

#19: mmm Author: ANZAC_Lord4war, Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:51 am
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CCMT would not be suiting to hiding in a building with the weapons they have nowadays.
they would just destroy the building from some distance if a single gunshot came out of it.
P.S To find terrain details hoover mouse over wall of house,u need to know before attacking as u wouldnt run thru a known minefield.
When coding done properly u can physically see the wall has been knocked down.
Dont fret not playing my old mod,i havent played this one lol.
Just enjoy the ones u like.

#20: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:01 am
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Idea

Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total

#21: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:08 am
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Stwa wrote:

From my perpesctive, all we a FIQURED out, is that you are a fucking troll. Go back to your cave. I know thats where your bong is stashed. Just in case Phelps comes over.

I wish I could...but I'm a CC troll...and now I can't fuckin go back to my cave 'cause they coded my cave walls solid! Now I can't find the damned cave door and find my bong! Very Happy

#22: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:14 am
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squadleader_id wrote:

Stwa wrote:

From my perpesctive, all we a FIQURED out, is that you are a fucking troll. Go back to your cave. I know thats where your bong is stashed. Just in case Phelps comes over.

I wish I could...but I'm a CC troll...and now I can't fuckin go back to my cave 'cause they coded my cave walls solid! Now I can't find the damned cave door and find my bong! Very Happy

Well, I hope that means your leaving anyway. Thanks for all your BS perspectives. If you don't like the game, better to say so at the top of the thread. So we can just ignore you instead.

#23: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:28 am
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Actually...IIRC people here at CCS had 'fun chats' about CCMT a few months ago...you can look up those threads if you want Smile

Sorry to waste your time with my perspectives of the version of CC you love Very Happy

#24: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:09 pm
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squadleader_id wrote:

Actually...IIRC people here at CCS had 'fun chats' about CCMT a few months ago...you can look up those threads if you want Smile

Sorry to waste your time with my perspectives of the version of CC you love Very Happy

I just don't like trolls. And you are clearly a troll. And yes, you are wasting my time. And if you are not having fun here, perhaps you can try some of the other forums. Don't let the door bang you on the a**.

For the most part, I am the only one who even posts in here. So you wanted to start something up, and you did.

For every issue you raise, there is a proper tactical response in CCMT. One thing that doesn't seem to work well, is the SOP's from other CC games and I like that.

BTW,

When your troops are pinned, try covert move (even in buildings), it works for me most of the time. If not, then all you can do is set em to ambush.

#25: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:20 pm
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Why so serious? Take it easy...it's only a game...even if the walls are coded as solid like the real thing Wink

Okay...I'm gonna troll the CCWAR forum now...something's brewing really good over there Very Happy

#26: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:23 pm
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squadleader_id wrote:

Why so serious? Take it easy...it's only a game...even if the walls are coded as solid like the real thing Wink

Okay...I'm gonna troll the CCWAR forum now...something's brewing really good over there Very Happy

Promise?

#27: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:15 pm
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Stwa wrote:

And finally, for some people, being able to shoot and walk through walls is absurd as well as NOT BEING FUN.

I'd agree if it was fixed in another way than just making the walls impassible/nonshootable through.
It's a big change and such change needs to be implemented with more engine changes.

First thing - now, I can't just tell my Abrams to fire at the building. I have to fire through a window.
So, the engine would have to be able if the weapon is capable of penetrating/damaging the building and allow to attempt to fire through walls (either counting that projectiles will go through walls or hit them and damage/demolish them.

Second thing - I have tried simply destroing walls with heavy guns, but either I wasn't able to aim at the wall because of the first thing or the projectile hit the wall, left some debris but it doesn't count as a hole in a wall and can't be passed/shoot through.

Third thing - if buildings and their are becoming so important there should be more effect of fire on them than just creating a small pile of debris.

Stwa wrote:

I have never seen that at all. Moving back and forth from one end to the other before exiting, doesn't mean they are lost.

So, when you want to go through a one room house with opened doors and opened windows you're moving back and forth from one end to the other before exiting?
How it doesn't mean that they are lost?

squadleader_id wrote:

As for the "Girlie Soldiers(TM)" AI...sure this is more realistic...but for gameplay sakes...it's a pain to have to keep clicking and re-issuing orders when your troops go to ground.

So, if you think that it's more realistic, why are you calling it "Girlie Soldiers"? AFAIK most of RL soldiers are men.

#28: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:28 pm
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Therion wrote:

Stwa wrote:

And finally, for some people, being able to shoot and walk through walls is absurd as well as NOT BEING FUN.

Stwa wrote:

I have never seen that at all. Moving back and forth from one end to the other before exiting, doesn't mean they are lost.

So, when you want to go through a one room house with opened doors and opened windows you're moving back and forth from one end to the other before exiting?
How it doesn't mean that they are lost?

squadleader_id wrote:

As for the "Girlie Soldiers(TM)" AI...sure this is more realistic...but for gameplay sakes...it's a pain to have to keep clicking and re-issuing orders when your troops go to ground.

So, if you think that it's more realistic, why are you calling it "Girlie Soldiers"? AFAIK most of RL soldiers are men.

OK, I took out an Abrahms Cmd tank and shot a few round at a wall of a 1 story building. It created the brick rubble as expected. I ckecked the elevation of the rubble by using the right mouse button as ANZAC_Lord4war explained to us. Sure enough it said "brick rubble 0m elevation", which I take to mean you can shoot through it and walk through it? right? To be sure I moused over undamaged wall. It said "brick wall 6m elevation".

Then then tank could shoot over the rubble into the building. See screenshots. And troops could easily move into the building. Very realistic.

Generally, I think, when the troops move back and forth across a room, they are waiting for the door to clear (because a teammate is blocking the exit).
Or maybe they are just looking out all the windows to be sure things are really clear.

And, I cant remember for sure, but didn't the first version of CC4 try this solid wall thing too. It would be easy enough to check. It was changed back in the 4.01 update?

Edit: Added tank test screenshot.

#29: Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:37 pm
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Therion wrote:

squadleader_id wrote:

As for the "Girlie Soldiers(TM)" AI...sure this is more realistic...but for gameplay sakes...it's a pain to have to keep clicking and re-issuing orders when your troops go to ground.

So, if you think that it's more realistic, why are you calling it "Girlie Soldiers"? AFAIK most of RL soldiers are men.

Sorry...I'm not back...just peeking in Wink

Do I really have to explain the "Girlie Soldiers(TM)" again? Just do a forum search for answers Smile

BTW, although some people might argue GS(TM) AI is more realistic and actually an improvement for CC (certainly not from a gameplay perspective)...I prefer the Squadleader/ASL (the classic wargame) based/inspired psyche modeling: soldiers/teams only going to ground/aborting orders when under certain extreme circumstances (ie: leader KIA, pinned by enemy fire, taking excessive losses etc)...not everytime they're shot at or when they see enemy activity.
Therion, still not clear about the "girls" reference Wink

#30: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:46 pm
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Stwa wrote:

I have tested it again. It's impossible to target walls - when I try to target walls, I get "no line of fire". The only way to fire at "walls" is to fire at windows, which is pointless.

#31: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:54 pm
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Therion wrote:

Stwa wrote:

I have tested it again. It's impossible to target walls - when I try to target walls, I get "no line of fire". The only way to fire at "walls" is to fire at windows, which is pointless.

No, me and my kid have been sitting here testing all morning. And its just persnickity. But it is possible. We even re-installed the game to make sure we had the original elements file. Worst case, you can start at the edge of a door or window and widen it as you go along, but we found that is not always necessary. Maybe you have found some buildings that can't, but we have found plenty of them that can.

#32: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:52 pm
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We switched to a new map. Here are some more screenies. Sometimes you just need the right angle.

#33: Blowing Holes Through Walls For Dummies. Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:23 pm
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Try firing at the ground to breech the wall seems to work as well. Fire a few shots at the ground and eventually wood debris will form. Then aim the next few shots at the wall itself.

#34: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:42 pm
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Forked tongue? What? Dude, I'm not going to talk to you until you'll learn better manners.

#35: Blowing Holes Through Walls for Dummies Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:43 pm
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Sometimes it does depend on the structure. This CC3 style structure gets its wall blown out and then Yahooooo!

#36: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:56 pm
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Therion wrote:

Forked tongue? What? Dude, I'm not going to talk to you until you'll learn better manners.

I dont blame ya. I'm sure you have lost interest in the topic.

#37: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:09 pm
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Ok, here's my test. Of course no one should believe it because it's obvious that it's fabricated:

Last edited by Therion on Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

UO0328.jpg

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01. The wall blocks line of sight.

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UO0332.jpg

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02. 15 120mm heat rounds later. The wall is still there.

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UO0333.jpg

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03. Infantry inspects a miraculous wall.

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#38: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:18 pm
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Fuck, wrong image. Why can't I edit or delete my posts?

Anyway:

UO0356.jpg

Description:

Oh, I see, I needed to get a right angle (to aim through the window).

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UO0355.jpg

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04. Another wall, still standing among the rubble.

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UO0329.jpg

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01. A wall.

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#39: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:18 pm
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I believe your test. Really what I think is going on, is, I can target wall areas that are adjacent to doors and windows, probably because the coded element overlaps to the wall area.

But once I have breeched the wall I can generally keep going down the wall blowing it all out along the way.

At any rate, its too difficult to set up and perform, as it takes too much time to acquire a good shot. Even though it is possible. The ground firing test also "worked" but you had to shoot many times to breech the wall and then its still not clear to me if troops are running over the brick wall debris or simply through a window or door element that once was there.

Also, we did find structures where we could not get any shot on the wall. And my guess is those did not have windows and doors on that part of the wall.

Regards,

Stwa

#40: Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:27 pm
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I have still problems with areas adjacent to doors and windows - that's how I got debris in the test. So far, I've seen one (in 10 or more that I've shot at before) building where a fragment of wall really disappeared, so it's possible that it's some kind of map-coding problem.

#41: Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:03 pm
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Yup,

And I did take this screenshot because I keep thinking the game at least replaces the wall element with brick debris. I superimposed the undamaged structure over the damaged one so I could be sure.

So maybe it does happen some of the time. But its still too hard to accomplish. So its hard to call it a credible "feature" if it is one at all.

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Modern Tactics

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