Close Combat Series :: View topic - Wacht Am Rhein Strategic Map Discussion

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#21: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:06 am
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What other possibilities does having 64 maps create?

I dont see much to gain from having a larger GC, aside from taking it longer to complete which may equal loner enjoyment. How many people finish a GC now with 44 maps? How long does it take someone to create and code 64 maps, vice 44?

I have always felt that this huge focus on maps has been a bit of a waste. Maps dont have to be great or in large numbers to make a mod or WaR great. Its accurate data, new units, sounds, better interface and more options.

#22: Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:40 am
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i finished the 64 map GC in 3 days...as germans, quite fun...but yes its mostly a HvAI thing, H2H it would take weeks of dedicated players,maybe months....

some of the new maps are quite a spectical,some originals reworked,some unchanged,some we have seen before in other mods,or very similar.

#23: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:36 am
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There are no maps from any mods!

#24: Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:48 am
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well maybe it used some roads,buildings that looked like one from a mod...similar to CCIIIWF to be more exact.but this was just the odd one.
like i said, or very similar. just a few ok...dont get ur knickers in a knot. not like i got anything else to do...

#25: Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:21 am
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Interesting topic

Not knowing any of the town names or any of the connections does however make this kinda mute.

My only wonder is why doesnt it like more like a Bulge?
Yes the CCIV strat map sucked but only because it didnt represent realistic in terms of mileage.

Belkgium people to name towns?

This is 2008 we dont need them,I think it's been more than well documented.

looks good... finallly someone changed that eye-cancer causing bright green of CC4 into a more acceptable darker tan green

Ahhhh what?

Dima those rivers may be frozen, shallow, roads or dried up river beds.

Ahh yea thats why the German had so much eash moving through the Ardennes in "44

To tell you the truth...why didnt they make new maps in the same style as the old ones

I can only assume they only used the original 43 maps from CCIV over and over again. Rolling Eyes

I think it would be great to see the VLs during the strategic phase also. When you click on the map icon to get a larger view it will probably only show VL ownership. Knowing what the VLs are, and thier values would assist strategic planning.

Awsome idea

What any of you have failed to discover or mod and hopefully this re-release will show is that such a battle as the Ardennes creates a truley Offensive and Defensive battle for both players.

But the strat map looks good,why it has no shoulders I have no idea,mayb it's just my inability to see it in the right direction

#26: Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:02 am
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well maybe not ALL of us have no chance,I will make my first H2H reservation for a GC NOW please!

i get play GMT+10 at 830 to 1030 pm mon to thurs,friday off, sat and sun any time necessary,mornings are good(7am to 10am).

shal we dance?

side?
time?
initiative off preffered but not essential?
shal we lock the selection of troops?

we have a while to plan, hell maybe we could get some mates in and start a clan style GC?? interested?

#27: Author: southern_land,

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:24 am
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mooxe wrote:

What other possibilities does having 64 maps create?

I dont see much to gain from having a larger GC, aside from taking it longer to complete which may equal loner enjoyment. How many people finish a GC now with 44 maps? How long does it take someone to create and code 64 maps, vice 44?

I have always felt that this huge focus on maps has been a bit of a waste. Maps dont have to be great or in large numbers to make a mod or WaR great. Its accurate data, new units, sounds, better interface and more options.

i honestly never thought I'd see anyone bitching about extra maps in WaR. Surely the whole point of having a strat map is to create the situation whereby you might be able to cut off enemy unit/s and render then out of supply... like bastonge. The extra maps 44 up to 63 surely helps that possiblity? Otherwise you're just following Haigs glorious example from WW1 and slamming heads together until one side gives up aren't you?

#28: Author: Flamethrower,

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:38 am
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er...dudes.. the 300+ mapmakerman speaks ... take a seat n pay attention

#29: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:54 am
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More of a general opinion than complaining. If it was a question of where to concentrate the biggest efforts I would place it on data, units... everything else I mentioned. Theres alot of great mods out there that have all new maps but have either bad sound, bad data or a horribly constructed strategic map that kills the mod entirely.

New maps are always great, but I have seen so many great maps that I know nothing better will come, there is no more room for improvement. The room for improvement is with everything else now.

southern_land wrote:

mooxe wrote:

#30: Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:54 am
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The increased number of maps could make mod making harder and playing campaigns/operations longer IF you insist on using them all. When creating a new mod or making a campaign/operation there is nothing that forces people to use all the maps, all the BG's or every day that the game can go.

Being able to is GREAT as it will allow for more movement and for forces to be surrounded. Keeping the number of active BG's down will prevent a WW1 solid front line from being made and keep the number of battles to complete a campaign/operation down….

Last edited by Tejszd on Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total

#31: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:02 am
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Don't get me wrong though. The more maps the better. If one of the other elements lags behind then it detracts from the entire game. Data, sounds, strategic map, units are probably the hardest things to make right in this game, for that reason more focus should be brought onto them.

#32: Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:11 am
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The more maps the better, you can always make a custom OP with less maps. Even doing a mod you dont need to replace every map, you can make 4 new ones with a custom OP for them.

There is enough map making talent around to get that job done, the harder part is the data, especially for CC4.

This game is 2 games in 1, with the first half German offensive and the second half American with some British. Getting the balance right for the forcepools is the key.

Never mind if this tank has 4 crew instead of 5 or if this weapon had 20 or 22 bullets - who cares? Get the data that affects the game right - it's a game not a re-enactment.

**EDIT - Back to topic, I like the map, I like the dead ends in the roads - it gives you somewhere to hide. A unit on this map will need to be flanked to be attacked, or else bypassed and surrounded.

#33: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:57 am
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double post.

Last edited by schrecken on Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total

#34: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:58 am
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The improvement is number of maps on the strategic level... 43 ==>> 64 , no mod has ever offered this, that means improved strat level play... it doesn't matter what they look like, though they are superb.

#35: Author: CSO_Talorgan,

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:05 pm
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mooxe wrote:

What other possibilities does having 64 maps create?

Well here's a couple of ideas for starters:

#36: Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:46 pm
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no...NO..no hexes here! NOOOOO

#37: Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 pm
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mooxe wrote:

I have always felt that this huge focus on maps has been a bit of a waste. Maps dont have to be great or in large numbers to make a mod or WaR great. Its accurate data, new units, sounds, better interface and more options.

I disagree with you there Mooxe. If there is a mod that has crappy looking maps, I don't even want to bother playing it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that the data is important, but the look of the units and maps is equally important in my book.

#38: Author: Flamethrower,

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:57 pm
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Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:

mooxe wrote:

and if the maps ARE great AND in large numbers and the game IS more moddable than ever before? think y'all will like it?
except for the GREAT THERION and poltroon_michael of course

#39: Author: Roel,

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:36 pm
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pvt_Grunt wrote:

The more maps the better, you can always make a custom OP with less maps. Even doing a mod you dont need to replace every map, you can make 4 new ones with a custom OP for them.

There is enough map making talent around to get that job done, the harder part is the data, especially for CC4.

I just checked out the maps; I already count 28 brand new ones, for a total new surface of 8752 megatiles², or on average about 18x17 tiles per map. And if you ask me: they look absolutely great! So in that department, not much additional work to be done...

pvt_Grunt wrote:

This game is 2 games in 1, with the first half German offensive and the second half American with some British. Getting the balance right for the forcepools is the key.

Absolutely. For the forcepool data, there is a very detailed Access-database available covering the Ardennes Offensive that can answer almost any question on equipment, personnel strenght, reinforcement dates, everything you want...

The CC forcepool system doesn't allow for much flexibility (one forcepool for the whole campaign, one Allied reinforcement), but sensibly modding your forcepools per date and using the reinforcement button goes a long way in simulating the arrival of new units to replace worn-out BGs.

pvt_Grunt wrote:

Never mind if this tank has 4 crew instead of 5 or if this weapon had 20 or 22 bullets - who cares? Get the data that affects the game right - it's a game not a re-enactment.

Very true. There should be a minimum of historical resemblance (a King Tiger with 1 crew would be silly Smile

, but I wouldn't throw the game away either if that MP40 has 30 round-clips instead of 32. There should be no compromising for the forcepool data however. If you like the strategic dimension of CC, historical and well-scaled forcepools are essential IMO.

pvt_Grunt wrote:

**EDIT - Back to topic, I like the map, I like the dead ends in the roads - it gives you somewhere to hide. A unit on this map will need to be flanked to be attacked, or else bypassed and surrounded.

From a modding perspective, I'm starting to get a little bit worried though.
AFAIK, Stratedit is the only tool that can manipulate the stratmap. The number of map locations and arrows is fixed to respectively 44 and 84 IIRC.
So, as long as the tool is not updated to cope with 64 maps and with who knows how much connections you can now use, I see no possibility to change the stratmap. I don't know if CplFilth is still around to update his tool or if somebody else is up to that task. If not, well... we might have an issue here Sad

Cheers,

Roel

#40: Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:45 pm
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The map on the bottom with one connectionis probably Patton comming to relieve Bastogne.

Am I the only one who feels the strat map looks more like "Battle of the Sack"
rather than "Battle of the Bulge"?

Graphically speaking it is the best snow strat map I have ever seen.
I just question the outline.
Can anyone provide the starting points and reinforcement locations?

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