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#1: Russia at war with Georgia Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:31 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7550804.stm

WTF?
Is Georgia somekind of an ally to USA?

#2: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:06 pm
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Yes. A strong Ally.

#3: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:20 pm
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OK

#4: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:30 pm
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hmm

what bothers me is that Georgia declared a ceasefire on thurstday night at 2:00 then launched a major attack at 4:30 against Ossetia. Not only that they took the first day of the Olympics as date for attack (remember that keeping peace during the games makes you civilized) but now after the Russians forced them back, they want a ceasefire again.

As for the US:
What do you expect as NATO-hegemon to happen when you start making allies in the garden of another regional-hegemon? Just imagine Russia or China would start sending military observers to Mexico to prepare to retake Texas...(hypothetical)

As for the history books:
Ossetians, speaking a persian-rooted Slav language, are no ethic russians but russians by selfdeclaration. Georgia, as satellite of the Byzantine Empire and as independent kingdom had since the 5th century been fighting with what we now call Ossetians.

As for double standards:
Nato themselves punished serbia for the same internal operations Georgia put forwards now. In Kosovo as in Ossetia there is a 90 to 10 majority for the breakaway faction. But while in Europe the "bad Serbs" were strigmatized for trying to keep up the national integrity of Yugoslavia and the KLA was greeded as Freedom fighters, in Ossetia or Abhazia the same drive for independence is labeled sesessionist.

I hope that Nato will finally understand that pissing into another hegemons garden will provoke counter-spitting. And you know what, i bet we'd all do the same.

#5: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:37 pm
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Sometimes you post too long messages that I fall asleep.

Slavs (russians) respect nothing. The whole country is in chaos.

#6: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:45 pm
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Tippi-Simo wrote:

Sometimes you post too long messages that I fall asleep.

well, asking WTF about a war isnt that awesome either...

Tippi-Simo wrote:

Slavs (russians) respect nothing. The whole country is in chaos.

stereotype...

#7: Author: Dfox,

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:53 pm
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Polemarchos

+1

#8: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:24 pm
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Quote:

As for the US:
What do you expect as NATO-hegemon to happen when you start making allies in the garden of another regional-hegemon? Just imagine Russia or China would start sending military observers to Mexico to prepare to retake Texas...(hypothetical)

I'd support that..... or has it already happened?

#9: Author: Real.Romanians, Location: Bucharest, Romania

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:25 pm
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Quote:

Slavs (russians) respect nothing. The whole country is in chaos.

Well, as a Romanian, I have to agree with you.

#10: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:53 pm
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I agree with you Polemarchos, on most of your points.

I think the real test of aggression, on both sides, will be to see how far this goes, both in destruction and geography. I think the Georgian government and people are most afraid, not so much of loosing a slice of their county, as much as loosing all of their country. Clearly the Russian military could take all of Georgia if they so chose too. This isn't to discount the fighting spirit of the Georgian military, as it is based on pure numbers of men and material.

In today's world, most every single country has their fingers in someone else's pot. Some countries more than others, to be sure. But no one is innocent when it comes to minding their own business. Every country is guilty. But all of that really doesn't amount to a hill of beans when you neighbors and countrymen start dying.

The fact is Georgia is a major thoroughfare for oil and natural gas. Europe and America need it and support the Democratic government.

If Russia keeps the gloves on and only invades to a point, then I don't see the EU or Nato getting too involved. However, if Russia goes all the way with an invasion... well, then it could turn into something much bigger.

#11: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:28 am
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Well, I apologize! I´m not sophisticated as youre. I´m not a educated
philosopher as youre, good luck there.

Sorry, but I can´t make those pointless 10 lines answers.

First time I would like to hear your opinion, not those neutral opinions you share here.

#12: Author: Pz_Meyer,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:42 am
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Polemarchos wrote:

hmm

what bothers me is that Georgia declared a ceasefire on thurstday night at 2:00 then launched a major attack at 4:30 against Ossetia. Not only that they took the first day of the Olympics as date for attack (remember that keeping peace during the games makes you civilized) but now after the Russians forced them back, they want a ceasefire again.

As for the US:
What do you expect as NATO-hegemon to happen when you start making allies in the garden of another regional-hegemon? Just imagine Russia or China would start sending military observers to Mexico to prepare to retake Texas...(hypothetical)

As for the history books:
Ossetians, speaking a persian-rooted Slav language, are no ethic russians but russians by selfdeclaration. Georgia, as satellite of the Byzantine Empire and as independent kingdom had since the 5th century been fighting with what we now call Ossetians.

As for double standards:
Nato themselves punished serbia for the same internal operations Georgia put forwards now. In Kosovo as in Ossetia there is a 90 to 10 majority for the breakaway faction. But while in Europe the "bad Serbs" were strigmatized for trying to keep up the national integrity of Yugoslavia and the KLA was greeded as Freedom fighters, in Ossetia or Abhazia the same drive for independence is labeled sesessionist.

I hope that Nato will finally understand that pissing into another hegemons garden will provoke counter-spitting. And you know what, i bet we'd all do the same.

and you have to wonder how the US could even say anything after having had invaded Irag and Afghanistan and the possible invasion Iran. it's called hypocrosy, russia is doing what it thinks it has to do in their own best interest.

#13: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:58 am
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Tippi-Simo wrote:

Well, I apologize! I´m not sophisticated as youre. I´m not a educated
philosopher as youre, good luck there.

Sorry, but I can´t make those pointless 10 lines answers.

First time I would like to hear your opinion, not those neutral opinions you share here.

I don't think it has anything to do with being sophisticated (I'm pretty sure I've never been called that before Wink

). I'm not an expert on the region, so I can't go into the who is right and who is wrong part of it. But from my own, outsiders point of view, it seems like Russia needs to back off.

Rolling in the tanks and bombing the crap out of both military and civilian areas is nothing short of a declaration of war on an entire country. There is a portion of Vermont that wants to secede from the Union (as well as many other parts of the US I am sure), but that doesn't give Canada the right to hand out Canadian passports to the people there and declare that in 1770 Vermont was a province of French Canada anyway, and therefore have the right to back in militarily and thusly invade.

I realize this is an extreme example, and not 100% applicable to the situation in Georgia. Nonetheless, I still think Russia's move is wrong here.

Pz_Meyer wrote:

Yep, the US has certainly overstepped it's authority over the past 5 years (although I think Afghanistan was justified). However, as I stated before, just about every country in the world is eyeballs deep in another county(ies) affairs. Comparing every situation against what another country has done isn't going to solve anything. We have to take each situation on it's own merit. And in this particular situation, I feel like Russia is in the wrong.

#14: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:59 am
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Tippi-Simo wrote:

*edit: not sure this was actually directed at me now that I reread it Wink

#15: Author: rufus,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:06 am
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jaw jaw is better than war war,i think a cease fire will be decleared soon.

they both seem as bad as each other in this.georgian used the games to attack and were shocked by the russian response..ooops!but then again the russians have been spoiling for a reason to show the georgians whos the real boss in the region,not the yanks...did you you see the georgian troops being transported to the front in british land rovers.not much good against T90s...but judging by the russain army performance in checnya god knows how this will turn out...lots of civilian deaths with out doubt..

#16: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:28 am
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Can someone post a short summary of what Georgia is and why this is happening? I am assuming its another breakaway state type situation.

#17: Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:48 am
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in layman terms its like the kurds of turkey. rebels, georgia went to crush them, but there northern neighbour is russian,so they retaliated...thats my guess,correct me if im wrong. 90% of these people has russian passports, speak russian, in an autonamous state since 1992,georgie seems locked in power struggle,had to quell them.

#18: Author: karlmortar, Location: Falköping,Sweden

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:20 am
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Something in the bak of my tiny little mind tells me that this is just the begining.
Lets hope not.

#19: Author: Dfox,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:11 am
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I don't think so. The situation is exactly the same as Serbia-Kosovo. Can you find at least one distinction ? Response is no. And the result will be the same...

#20: Author: ANZAC_Tack, Location: Australia

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:43 am
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agreed karl, its gonna hot up in the next 2 weeks, then russia will withdraw slowly as our minds are taken of olympic games, hero russia for withdrawing on last day of olympics...my proficy...

#21: Author: flick,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:56 am
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Is the russian more trained than the one that went into checnya? I'd imagine.

And while we're here, is their still fighting in checnya?

#22: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:35 pm
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mooxe wrote:

Can someone post a short summary of what Georgia is and why this is happening? I am assuming its another breakaway state type situation.

Difficult... here an introduction:

History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Georgia_(country)

Overall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)

ethinic composition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg

Some academic articles:

ROBERT E. HUNTER: NATO in the 21st Century: A Strategic Vision
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/98summer/hunter.htm

JOHN HILLEN and MICHAEL P. NOONAN: The Geopolitics of NATO Enlargement http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/98autumn/hillen.htm

Weitz, Richard: Managing an Unpredictable Moscow http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/99winter/weitz.htm

WALTER PARCHOMENKO : The State of Russia's Armed Forces and Military Reform http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/99winter/parchome.htm

Blank, Stephen. “The Strategic Importance of Central Asia: An American View.” Spring 2008. pp. 73-87.
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/08spring/blank.pdf

there are some articles explicitly referring to the Caucasus of course but i cant post them, though they are only accessable through university accounts

I recommend the Small Wars and insurgencies magazine:http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/09592318.asp
every penny spend is invested properly

#23: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:40 pm
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flick wrote:

Is the russian more trained than the one that went into checnya? I'd imagine.

chechnya 1994-1996 was a conventional war
chechnya 1999-200? was/is a unconventional war

i'd say armies learn in both cases their respective lessons

flick wrote:

And while we're here, is their still fighting in checnya?

it is pretty quite now, but that does not mean anything.

for some live footage up to 2005 check:
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/video/

#24: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:19 pm
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So far the Georgians have done a pretty good job of defending their country against Russia, though most cities in South Ossetia are soldering piles.

#25: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:20 pm
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so cool to c so many experts on Caucasus here Smile

#26: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:17 pm
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http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html
Urkaine, a former Soviet republic like Georgia, said it might prevent Russian navy ships involved in the blockade from returning to their bases in the Crimea, an spokeswoman with Urkaine's foreign ministry said.

Now Ukraine is pissing off Moscow. Good.

#27: Author: Roel,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:26 am
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Dima wrote:

so cool to c so many experts on Caucasus here Smile

we are still waiting for you to communicate the universal truth to us Laughing

and don't forget to put in a Jentz quote on the subject Wink

#28: Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:16 am
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Quote:

we are still waiting for you to communicate the universal truth to us

some ppl always seek for universal truth to be revealed to them...

Quote:

and don't forget to put in a Jentz quote on the subject

and btw if you had basic knowledge on subject u'd know Jentz didn't cover this topic Wink

#29: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:44 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm
Well atleast the Russians do what they do best: targeting civilians.

We have experienced it here in Finland. Who else.. well Chechnya,Afghanistan and the list goes on and on.

But hey, they have oil and gas so who wants to judge them.

#30: Author: Dfox,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:28 am
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To Tippi-Simo:

Targeting civilians is not when one bomb mistakenly hits a house near military base. This is when brave georgian army uses GRAD multiple rocket launchers against small towns and villages.

If you want to understand what is happening in fact, try to receive information not only from BBC and CNN, but from other side too.

#31: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:11 am
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Well maybe I should try russian media? They say its the most reliable source on the earth and very independent.

I used those because i thought most of you think they are reliable.

#32: Author: Dfox,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:14 pm
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These "independent" chanels ( BBC, CNN and others ) were independent many years ago. Now they represent the point of view of western ruling elite...

#33: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:24 pm
—

Quote:

These "independent" chanels ( BBC, CNN and others ) were independent many years ago. Now they represent the point of view of western ruling elite...

You don`t have to tell me that. I know.

#34: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:32 pm
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Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin is criticizing the United States for airlifting Georgian troops from Iraq.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fVKS5slf10A13Dj_uIdaZ4QD92G1Q980

Brave Georgia is fighting against oppressor, no matter what the chances are.

#35: Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:33 pm
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just some reports and pics from eye-witnesses. whoever cares can easily translate from russian.
http://rupor-naroda.livejournal.com/
http://alan-tskhurbaev.livejournal.com/

some quotes (translated by me):

Quote:

11th August

In the morning the town was shelled. Now they shoot in the south of republic. The Georgians can not accept their defeat. They are not human-beeing, in one village they caught mother and daughter, cut their heads off and tortured bodies!

We will know soon what other tortures did they do in our villages

August 10th. 21.00

Rite now they are shelling us! The Georgians started to shell the town with "Grads" and mortars. We send ppl to Vladikavkaz by trucks. There is constant terrific crying and yelling of the women in my years. Recently the Georgians hit the car by mortar fire, there was a family there consisting of 4, 2 little children and parents. That's already third family annihilated for the last 2 days on my eyes.

In Tsunar village, tank drove upon mother and was smashing their bodies long after that.

August 10th , 12.08.

Tskhinval is ours.

In the morning we broke into weapons stock. Now almost everyone has weapon.

At last the Russian military arrived. Surrounded whole town. The Georgians were pushed back. Now we are taking positions all over the town.

Too many dead.

Captured georgian told that only 100 tankers survied of 500. He is tank driver-machanic. Their tank was taken by our guys, he was put on the driver's place and they went to shoot at the georgians. POW fought at all his best.

That's it.

#36: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:58 pm
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Baltic countries 1939, Poland 1939, Finland 1939, Chechnya 1994/1999, Afghanistan 1979, Georgia 2008.

Guess what country? And everytime they weren´t the agressors. Only defending themselves.

#37: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:05 pm
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Tipo i can sympathize with your points, but you compare david with goliath.
Reality simply does not adhere to ethical standards.

btw. If a small country commits barbarism vs. a larger one, we usually call it heroic resistance.
You see the issue is complicated and beyond WW2 logic.

#38: Author: Roel,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:35 pm
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Just to make sure my first post wasn't accidentally deleted:

Quote:

and btw if you had basic knowledge on subject u'd know Jentz didn't cover this topic Wink

If you have trouble recognizing sarcasm, let's agree I will use the Twisted Evil

in the future as a sign there's sarcasm involved...

Now that we've cleared that out:

Dima wrote:

so cool to c so many experts on Caucasus here Smile

care to share your expert analysis with us on the current situation in the Caucasus (no sarcasm involved here Smile

)?
The eyewitness reports listed, however real/rigged they may be, are not exactly what your standards of a reliable source would be. Or can we just say it's a subjective non-expert opinion as any other?
Inform us (beware: Twisted Evil

).

Cheers,

#39: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:16 pm
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Getting information from as many sources as possible is generally the best approach for being able to see "all sides". I think we're all in agreement on that.

From what we're getting from the Western propagandist capitalist news machine Rolling Eyes

is that Russia is continuing it's attack into Georgia, well outside the disputed area. Russia has also blockaded and bombed Georgian sea ports. It seems pretty clear now that Russia has bigger plans.

#40: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:27 pm
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mms://live.france24.com/france24_en.wsx
Livestream (it´s in english)

#41: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:45 pm
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Some pictures.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/war_in_south_ossetia.html

#42: Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:58 pm
—

Quote:

Just to make sure my first post wasn't accidentally deleted:

was it?

Quote:

If you have trouble recognizing sarcasm, let's agree I will use the in the future as a sign there's sarcasm involved...

u don't really recognise sarcasm at all?
or how do we call it...uhh...seems double standards Wink

Quote:

care to share your expert analysis with us on the current situation in the Caucasus (no sarcasm involved here )?

well, if serious:
Putin was in China when all that happened so he called Medvedev and asked:
-What are we doing there, Dima?
-Vova, we just follow the last will of a deadman.
-What will ?
-It was Solzhenitsin last will to enter Gori and remove any trace of Stalin.

#43: Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:00 pm
—

Dima wrote:

Quote:

Just to make sure my first post wasn't accidentally deleted:

was it?

Quote:

If you have trouble recognizing sarcasm, let's agree I will use the in the future as a sign there's sarcasm involved...

u don't really recognise sarcasm at all?
or how do we call it...uhh...seems double standards Wink

Quote:

care to share your expert analysis with us on the current situation in the Caucasus (no sarcasm involved here )?

A good example of the Russian sense of humour Smile

Or is it the wodka speaking? Are the Russians already toasting to their victory and reclaimed self esteem? To quote my female Russian colleague "All that Russian men are good for is war and wodka."
Anyway, this invasion shows that the Russians have a good sense for timing. It amazes me why no-one in this forum seems to have yet noticed the speed and decisiveness with which the Russians are conducting their actions: A complete mechanized brigade invaded South Ossetia within 24hours of the Georgian counter separatist offensive and a day or so later all of a sudden a sea borne invasion takes place in Abkhasia. Where did those fully equipped and prepared units come from all of a sudden? Does this type of deployment not require careful planning? All that Russia needed was an excuse to invade Georgia and with the less than impressive Georgian offensive against the separatists the perfect opportunity presented itself. This explains also why the Georgians were forced to withdraw so quickly. They were simply not prepared for dealing with a Russian opponent.
It looks like the Russians will press on to seize the moment. Surely they can not wait until the Georgian mobilisation is complete and surely they want to put the pressure on as much as possible. The least they want is force Saakashvili to resign and kill any attempts of Georgia joining Nato once and for all. Russia did not particularly appreciate the EU and Nato "anti-slav" Balkan politics. Now it is payback time...

#44: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:13 pm
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for all who really want to understand theoretically what is going on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian_dialogue

read it replace "Athens" with Russia, "Melos" with Georgia and "Sparta" with USA.

some things never change.

Last edited by Polemarchos on Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

#45: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:31 pm
—

Pete wrote:

"All that Russian men are good for is war and wodka."

stereotype again... i.e. ask her how Tesla or Kolmogorov fits into her thesis

Pete wrote:

Anyway, this invasion shows that the Russians have a good sense for timing.
It amazes me why no-one in this forum seems to have yet noticed the speed and decisiveness with which the Russians are conducting their actions: A complete mechanized brigade invaded South Ossetia within 24hours of the Georgian counter separatist offensive and a day or so later all of a sudden a sea borne invasion takes place in Abkhasia. Where did those fully equipped and prepared units come from all of a sudden? Does this type of deployment not require careful planning?

I guess we wonder too but only to a certain respect...
Western European doctrine about strategic explicitness does not fit reality of the rest of the world. The lack of explicitness represents an inherent feature of strategic thought. Guessing right or wrong about an enemies values or capabilities has extreme effects on conflict outcome. The same lack of explicitness can be found in the insecurity of guessing right about an adversary’s perception of his own values and objectives in war. Same applies for readiness. For instance, Portugal does not need to have troops ready at the border to Spain. In contrast, Syrian troops are ready anytime.
Thus, there is no need to wonder about the preparedness of troops, especially if you consider (1) the closeness of Chechnya and Dagestan were COIN operations were counducted in the last decade, (2) the tension built up since March 2008, (3) the geostrategic importance of the southern flank for Russia and for the non-existent restraint to conduct strategic bombardment against soft targets to enforce coersion. (Here we must acknowledge that even so-called "surgical warfare" equates to barbarism since it aims to crush the will of an opponent and not his physical capacity to stage resistance)

#46: Author: Roel,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:06 pm
—

Quote:

-It was Solzhenitsin last will to enter Gori and remove any trace of Stalin.

I bet the Russians could sell this to George W : just freeing the world once and for all of another dictator. Although, being in Bejing right now, somebody will need to clarify that Solzhenitsin is not the chicken Szechuan he ordered Smile

#47: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:59 am
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Tippi-Simo wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm
Well atleast the Russians do what they do best: targeting civilians.

We have experienced it here in Finland. Who else.. well Chechnya,Afghanistan and the list goes on and on.

But hey, they have oil and gas so who wants to judge them.

also the one thing the U.S. has done since the end of the cold war.

#48: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:04 am
—

Pete wrote:

A good example of the Russian sense of humour Smile

after 2003 nothing surprises me about how prepared a large, developed country can go and beat the shit out of a country half their size, then make a piss-poor excuse of why they attacked.

#49: Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:29 am
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I don't want to change the worls I just want some statistics on what destoyed what how and when... and what piece of equipment wasn't effective against what other piece.

Any data anyone?

#50: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:13 am
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Ok, DM have just told on a meeting with Russ Defence Minister that mission is accomplished, agressor was punished, RA ceases fire. ALtho in case of military provokations, enemy will be annihilated.

#51: Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:25 am
—
Reading the news makes me wonder why waging war in civilian areas (including putting military units into them) and attacking/using civilian infrastructure for military purposes isn't a war crime.

#52: Author: ZAPPI4, Location: Belgium Liege

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:14 pm
—
For sure, both side think they are right and opponent is the Evil, isnt it?
The most difficult way is:
? Knowing to be the stronger and fighting.
? Knowing to be the stronger and refuse to fight.

Russia must be not happy to "invade" a country around 0.5% of Russia.
Something maybe hidden in this "War"
Is any War declaration by Russia or Georgia?
Osethie is a Georgia area or Russia Area?
Guys we are in the 21Th Century, and the "world" still in own War.
I hope than a day, we will found a way to closed a conflict without army and weapon.

#53: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:26 pm
—

Quote:

The most difficult way is:
? Knowing to be the stronger and refuse to fight.

yeah that's why when Russia secured the Russian citizens and PK it has stopped the fiting. Btw in some areas the georgians were smart enuf to drop their weapon, surrender and allow Russian PK to patrol areas again.

Quote:

Russia must be not happy to "invade" a country around 0.5% of Russia.

Russia didn't invade anything.

Quote:

Something maybe hidden in this "War"

maybe that?

Quote:

Is any War declaration by Russia or Georgia?

no.

Quote:

Osethie is a Georgia area or Russia Area?

i will try to be short:
it was under administrative command of GSSR since 1920s.
Georgia cancelled ligitimity of the Soviet Union constitution and laws in 1991 and declared independence according to the Act of Independence of 1918. Neither Ossetia nor Abkhazia belonged to Georgia that time.
SO voted to be independend in 1991.
Georgia attacked SO in 1992. That was ethnical war and alot of cas (more than 2000 for both sides). With help of the Russian Army the war was stopped in 1992.
Since that time joined PK forces (Russian, Georgian and Ossetian) were there. Both nations started to forget their pain and were cooperation with each other pretty ok.
SOssetians didn't get the Georgian Passports as they chose to receive the Russian Passports (as they were citizens of USSR they could receive it for easily).
That's it.

#54: Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:14 pm
—

Dima wrote:

Quote:

Something maybe hidden in this "War"

maybe that?

Great. Another war.

So, what are you suggesting? That Russia tries to show it's strength or that USA is using Georgia as a distraction?

#55: Author: ZAPPI4, Location: Belgium Liege

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:20 pm
—
if i dont miss something ...

Russia Helping SO against invader Georgia (and his possible "hidden allies").
After the end of the "War", after weeks, month or so, SO may be "annexed" by Russia?
Or After the end ... , SO may be helped by Russia to stay "independant"?
U right i made mistake ...Russia didnt invade Georgia.
They just dropped bomb and using gun to firing Georgian position in Georgian ground.
And as it seems they helped SO , it's natural.

Between, did Staline was born somewhere in actual Georgia?

#56: Author: ZAPPI4, Location: Belgium Liege

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:28 pm
—
USA Distraction?

How can you be discret when u began a WAR, u win the war and keep control of the country
when the war is ended since many years?

I doubt than USA wanted any distraction there. If they want something that's more
something like to be close to the heart of their "cold war" friend.
But well; Cold war is end since many years, isnt it?

#57: Author: rouge5,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:30 pm
—
I don't believe the Cold War ever ended.

#58: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:49 pm
—
This doesn't have anything to do with the US, at least not in the way that has been mentioned (i.e. Iran). Russia thinks Georgia belongs to them, Georgia doesn't think they do. Russia wanted a reason to invade, and apparently they got enough of one to do so.

Georgia has major oil and natural gas pipelines running through their country, and they are a Democratically elected government. This adds up to Western support for Georgia. This has also angered Russia.

[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

Just because the PM says so - doesn't make it true. Journalist in the area were still covering bombings and fighting between the forces far outside of the "disputed" zone after Russia said they had stopped.

Also, asking a country to lay down all of their arms is one hell of a request Razz

I don't care who you are or how bad your getting your ass kicked. I don't know any country who would do that at this point.

I don't think the West will come to Georgia's aid right now, not unless they want a World War. The other Balkan states however... they might just be the key to all of this is they can unite. Otherwise, why would Russia just stop with Georgia? They have laid claim to all of the former satellite countries, so what's to stop them?

#59: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:57 pm
—

Pzt_Mac wrote:

The other Balkan states however... they might just be the key to all of this is they can unite. Otherwise, why would Russia just stop with Georgia? They have laid claim to all of the former satellite countries, so what's to stop them?

balkans? you mean caucasus

No way. Russia has defense alliance with Armenia and Iran. Turkey is Nato member and has defense alliance with Azerbaijan. Russia stopped, that is just some nailling for Georgia to know who dicatates the upcoming treaty.

#60: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:59 pm
—
Pole, u didn't understand, Mac messed Balkans and Caucauses - same for him, far away and inhabited with aborigens Smile

#61: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:04 pm
—
Mac, try to get at least some basic knowledge on the subject or at least ask... your reply is just LOL.

#62: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:38 pm
—
What part is "LOL"?

The fact that you think Russia stopped their attack, which they didn't?

Or that Gerogia will need Allies if they hope to fend off Russia?

Or that Russia has gone beyond the South Ossetia region?

My apologies for getting Balkans and Caucauses confused. I was really just trying to say Ukraine, Poland, etc. anyway.

#63: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:48 pm
—

Quote:

What part is "LOL"?

this one f.e.:
Russia thinks Georgia belongs to them, Georgia doesn't think they do
where did u get that from?

weall of it actually Wink

Quote:

The fact that you think Russia stopped their attack, which they didn't?

Russia didn't stop whose attack?

Quote:

Or that Gerogia will need Allies if they hope to fend off Russia?

Georgia won;t need Allies if it doesn't want to attack again Wink

.
Did anyone treat Georgia with war?

Quote:

Or that Russia has gone beyond the South Ossetia region?

Where and when?

Quote:

My apologies for getting Balkans and Caucauses confused. I was really just trying to say Ukraine, Poland, etc. anyway.

lol these countries r not in Balkans or Caucasus either Very Happy

#64: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:00 pm
—

Dima wrote:

Georgia won;t need Allies if it doesn't want to attack again Wink

.
Did anyone treat Georgia with war?

I think I've got to the crux of your argument: So you believe that Russia simply reacted to a Georgian attack, even though it happened inside Georgian territory, and that Georgia is getting what it deserves. Russia isn't "invading", it's liberating?

I guess we've just chosen different sides is all.

#65: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:08 pm
—

Quote:

So you believe that Russia simply reacted to a Georgian attack, even though it happened inside Georgian territory,

have u tried to read my reply to Zappi on status of SO?

Quote:

and that Georgia is getting what it deserves

Saak. did get what he deserved and probably will get even more.
The Georgian ppl are just victims of the guys they voted for, like the germans who voted for Hitler.

Quote:

Russia isn't "invading", it's liberating?

lol, why do u think there were JPK forces since 1992, russian language and citizenship?
and why do u think refugees went to evil Russia and not to brite and sunny democratic Georgia?

Quote:

I guess we've just chosen different sides is all.

defenetly.
don't take it too close tho Wink

#66: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:44 pm
—
[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

have u tried to read my reply to Zappi on status of SO?

Quote:

Saak. did get what he deserved and probably will get even more.
The Georgian ppl are just victims of the guys they voted for, like the germans who voted for Hitler.

So the Georgian government are Nazis?

Quote:

lol, why do u think there were JPK forces since 1992, russian language and citizenship?
and why do u think refugees went to evil Russia and not to brite and sunny democratic Georgia?

lol, I don't know. Why didn't all of Georgia choose brite and sunny Russia instead of evil democratic Georgia?

Quote:

defenetly.
don't take it too close tho Wink

Likewise.

#67: Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:57 pm
—

Quote:

do it. may help u to understand some things.

Quote:

So the Georgian government are Nazis?

it was u who told that Wink

.
me only told that ppl choose their fate on their own.

Quote:

lol, I don't know.

think about it Wink

Quote:

Why didn't all of Georgia choose brite and sunny Russia instead of evil democratic Georgia?

well u would be v surprise if u check how many georgians live and work in Russia and send their money home, as there is vertially no work for them in Georgia - unelss they want to be in military or police...

anyway u should open a map and check where is SO. and find some history book and check why ossetians and georgians don't like each other for such long time, and WHO since XIX century was between them helping to avoid ethnical wars.

#68: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:32 pm
—
Putin should enjoy his life before hangman´s noose.

People in Moscow salute their leader Putin:

"We Russians Are Part of the White Race

In Russia, Neo-Nazis are supported by the government and have thousands, if not the majority of russian supporters. Race and bias crimes are quite common in russia and are on the increase."

#69: Author: Kitkat,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:39 pm
—
Russian forces crossed the border into Georgia yesterday. Don't forget also that the Russians had been provoking for quite a while now by shooting down unmanned aircraft and violating Georgian airspace as a "warning".
The Russian military production and arming have never been greater, not even during the cold war.
Does this give you a notch?

#70: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:41 pm
—

Quote:

violating Georgian airspace as a "warning"

Well they violate our airspace almost 10 times in a year. And never apologize. Thats the kind of people Georgians are dealing with.

#71: Author: flick,

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:57 pm
—

Tippi-Simo wrote:

Putin should enjoy his life before hangman´s noose.

People in Moscow salute their leader Putin:

Oh the irony..didn't they listen to their Grandparents?

#72: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:45 pm
—

Tippi-Simo wrote:

Quote:

violating Georgian airspace as a "warning"

Well they violate our airspace almost 10 times in a year. And never apologize. Thats the kind of people Georgians are dealing with.

well that is not more than simple sabre-ratling. Greece and Turkey do that like 100 times a year since 1974. It has become a game of deterrence. If it would qualify as an act of war beyond the legal texts (where it does qualify as such), we'd had wars every day somewhere on the planet.

#73: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:06 am
—
[quote="Dima"]

Quote:

do it. may help u to understand some things.

lol, no thanks. I understand it just fine.

Quote:

it was u who told that Wink

.
me only told that ppl choose their fate on their own.

Huh? You said "The Georgian ppl are just victims of the guys they voted for, like the germans who voted for Hitler. "

Quote:

think about it Wink

I did, and gave the same response as you. Re read the post and you'll understand.

Quote:

There are also many Georgians living and working in Europe and elsewhere as well. Georgia is a poor country, it doesn't surprise me that that they live in countries with better economies to make money.

Quote:

anyway u should open a map and check where is SO. and find some history book and check why ossetians and georgians don't like each other for such long time, and WHO since XIX century was between them helping to avoid ethnical wars.

I know exactly where it is, and have read a lot of history on the area. Maybe you should do the same. We can start in the 4th century, but starting in 1921 would be most appropriate I think Wink

#74: Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:44 am
—

Quote:

lol, no thanks. I understand it just fine.

so did u understand that SO has never belonged to Georgia but was under administrative command?
did u understand that ossetians r not georgians - they r of different ethnos and don't want to be part of Gerogia?
did u understand that the Georgians don't fite for their ppl but for the territoy they were give under administrative command by Soviet Union goverment - they fite for the Soviet heritage?
seems u didn't.

so what did u understand? Wink

Quote:

Huh? You said "The Georgian ppl are just victims of the guys they voted for, like the germans who voted for Hitler. "

Huh? Am I wrong?
where did i mention nazi? it was u who did. Wink

Quote:

I did, and gave the same response as you. Re read the post and you'll understand.

i've already understand that you don't know and really r not interested in what is going on in SO. That's why u prefer to substitute research and knowledge with propaganda stamps and own speculations. Smile

Quote:

so tell me, plz, why so poor country has ~USD1bil for less than 40K army? Anyone treated it with war? Why didn't it invest this money in their economics instead?

Quote:

I know exactly where it is, and have read a lot of history on the area. Maybe you should do the same. We can start in the 4th century, but starting in 1921 would be most appropriate I think

and why not start in 1859?

#75: Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:42 am
—
Mac,
i think that can be interesting for u.

and some pics

#76: Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:26 am
—
According to the Ministry of Defence Russian PK Battalion lost:
74 KIA.
171 WIA.
19 MIA.

#77: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:52 am
—

flick wrote:

Tippi-Simo wrote:

Putin should enjoy his life before hangman´s noose.

People in Moscow salute their leader Putin:

Oh the irony..didn't they listen to their Grandparents?

nope they didn't, and it might be a problem in the future, knowing communists and nazis.

#78: Author: Therion,

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:44 pm
—
Suddenly it turned out that there will be a missile shield in Eastern Europe.

It makes me wonder. Was it the real reason why Georgia attacked South Osetia?

#79: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:59 pm
—
More photos
http://lsd-25.ru/2008/08/14/voyna-v-yuzhnoy-osetii-89-fotografiy-arkadiya-babchenko/
Viewers discretion is adviced

#80: Author: Therion,

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:53 pm
—
Those dead tanks with reactive look like some kind of reptiles.

#81: Author: mooxe,

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:07 pm
—
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/journalists.shot/index.html

Journalists take fire.

#82: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:58 am
—
same day. Russian and British journalists got ambushed same place, managed to escape too.
http://pics.livejournal.com/sirjones/pic/0016q4h7/

#83: Author: Nuuye, Location: Paris, city of rats!

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:07 pm
—
Men,

CCS is losing the war when making politics.

CCS admins should terminate this. CSO died for that.

Nuuye

#84: Author: Ryz, Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:15 am
—

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

Baltic countries 1939, Poland 1939, Finland 1939, Chechnya 1994/1999, Afghanistan 1979, Georgia 2008.

Guess what country? And everytime they weren´t the agressors. Only defending themselves.

You left a few out. Poland 1919, Germany 1941. And you may want to get some dates and facts straight on the ones you've mentioned.

#85: Re: Russia at war with Georgia Author: tedy28,

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:59 pm
—
write what it did wrong Polish in 1919????

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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