Close Combat Series :: View topic - Russia at war with Georgia

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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#21: Author: flick,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:56 am
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Is the russian more trained than the one that went into checnya? I'd imagine.

And while we're here, is their still fighting in checnya?

#22: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:35 pm
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mooxe wrote:

Can someone post a short summary of what Georgia is and why this is happening? I am assuming its another breakaway state type situation.

Difficult... here an introduction:

History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Georgia_(country)

Overall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)

ethinic composition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg

Some academic articles:

ROBERT E. HUNTER: NATO in the 21st Century: A Strategic Vision
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/98summer/hunter.htm

JOHN HILLEN and MICHAEL P. NOONAN: The Geopolitics of NATO Enlargement http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/98autumn/hillen.htm

Weitz, Richard: Managing an Unpredictable Moscow http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/99winter/weitz.htm

WALTER PARCHOMENKO : The State of Russia's Armed Forces and Military Reform http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/99winter/parchome.htm

Blank, Stephen. “The Strategic Importance of Central Asia: An American View.” Spring 2008. pp. 73-87.
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/08spring/blank.pdf

there are some articles explicitly referring to the Caucasus of course but i cant post them, though they are only accessable through university accounts

I recommend the Small Wars and insurgencies magazine:http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/titles/09592318.asp
every penny spend is invested properly

#23: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:40 pm
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flick wrote:

Is the russian more trained than the one that went into checnya? I'd imagine.

chechnya 1994-1996 was a conventional war
chechnya 1999-200? was/is a unconventional war

i'd say armies learn in both cases their respective lessons

flick wrote:

And while we're here, is their still fighting in checnya?

it is pretty quite now, but that does not mean anything.

for some live footage up to 2005 check:
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/video/

#24: Author: king_tiger_tank, Location: the Band and State of Kansas

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:19 pm
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So far the Georgians have done a pretty good job of defending their country against Russia, though most cities in South Ossetia are soldering piles.

#25: Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:20 pm
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so cool to c so many experts on Caucasus here Smile

#26: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:17 pm
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http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/10/georgia.russia/index.html
Urkaine, a former Soviet republic like Georgia, said it might prevent Russian navy ships involved in the blockade from returning to their bases in the Crimea, an spokeswoman with Urkaine's foreign ministry said.

Now Ukraine is pissing off Moscow. Good.

#27: Author: Roel,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:26 am
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Dima wrote:

so cool to c so many experts on Caucasus here Smile

we are still waiting for you to communicate the universal truth to us Laughing

and don't forget to put in a Jentz quote on the subject Wink

#28: Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:16 am
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Quote:

we are still waiting for you to communicate the universal truth to us

some ppl always seek for universal truth to be revealed to them...

Quote:

and don't forget to put in a Jentz quote on the subject

and btw if you had basic knowledge on subject u'd know Jentz didn't cover this topic Wink

#29: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:44 am
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm
Well atleast the Russians do what they do best: targeting civilians.

We have experienced it here in Finland. Who else.. well Chechnya,Afghanistan and the list goes on and on.

But hey, they have oil and gas so who wants to judge them.

#30: Author: Dfox,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:28 am
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To Tippi-Simo:

Targeting civilians is not when one bomb mistakenly hits a house near military base. This is when brave georgian army uses GRAD multiple rocket launchers against small towns and villages.

If you want to understand what is happening in fact, try to receive information not only from BBC and CNN, but from other side too.

#31: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:11 am
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Well maybe I should try russian media? They say its the most reliable source on the earth and very independent.

I used those because i thought most of you think they are reliable.

#32: Author: Dfox,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:14 pm
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These "independent" chanels ( BBC, CNN and others ) were independent many years ago. Now they represent the point of view of western ruling elite...

#33: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:24 pm
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Quote:

These "independent" chanels ( BBC, CNN and others ) were independent many years ago. Now they represent the point of view of western ruling elite...

You don`t have to tell me that. I know.

#34: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:32 pm
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Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin is criticizing the United States for airlifting Georgian troops from Iraq.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fVKS5slf10A13Dj_uIdaZ4QD92G1Q980

Brave Georgia is fighting against oppressor, no matter what the chances are.

#35: Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:33 pm
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just some reports and pics from eye-witnesses. whoever cares can easily translate from russian.
http://rupor-naroda.livejournal.com/
http://alan-tskhurbaev.livejournal.com/

some quotes (translated by me):

Quote:

11th August

In the morning the town was shelled. Now they shoot in the south of republic. The Georgians can not accept their defeat. They are not human-beeing, in one village they caught mother and daughter, cut their heads off and tortured bodies!

We will know soon what other tortures did they do in our villages

August 10th. 21.00

Rite now they are shelling us! The Georgians started to shell the town with "Grads" and mortars. We send ppl to Vladikavkaz by trucks. There is constant terrific crying and yelling of the women in my years. Recently the Georgians hit the car by mortar fire, there was a family there consisting of 4, 2 little children and parents. That's already third family annihilated for the last 2 days on my eyes.

In Tsunar village, tank drove upon mother and was smashing their bodies long after that.

August 10th , 12.08.

Tskhinval is ours.

In the morning we broke into weapons stock. Now almost everyone has weapon.

At last the Russian military arrived. Surrounded whole town. The Georgians were pushed back. Now we are taking positions all over the town.

Too many dead.

Captured georgian told that only 100 tankers survied of 500. He is tank driver-machanic. Their tank was taken by our guys, he was put on the driver's place and they went to shoot at the georgians. POW fought at all his best.

That's it.

#36: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:58 pm
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Baltic countries 1939, Poland 1939, Finland 1939, Chechnya 1994/1999, Afghanistan 1979, Georgia 2008.

Guess what country? And everytime they weren´t the agressors. Only defending themselves.

#37: Author: Polemarchos, Location: Polemarchopolis

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:05 pm
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Tipo i can sympathize with your points, but you compare david with goliath.
Reality simply does not adhere to ethical standards.

btw. If a small country commits barbarism vs. a larger one, we usually call it heroic resistance.
You see the issue is complicated and beyond WW2 logic.

#38: Author: Roel,

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:35 pm
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Just to make sure my first post wasn't accidentally deleted:

Quote:

and btw if you had basic knowledge on subject u'd know Jentz didn't cover this topic Wink

If you have trouble recognizing sarcasm, let's agree I will use the Twisted Evil

in the future as a sign there's sarcasm involved...

Now that we've cleared that out:

Dima wrote:

so cool to c so many experts on Caucasus here Smile

care to share your expert analysis with us on the current situation in the Caucasus (no sarcasm involved here Smile

)?
The eyewitness reports listed, however real/rigged they may be, are not exactly what your standards of a reliable source would be. Or can we just say it's a subjective non-expert opinion as any other?
Inform us (beware: Twisted Evil

).

Cheers,

#39: Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:16 pm
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Getting information from as many sources as possible is generally the best approach for being able to see "all sides". I think we're all in agreement on that.

From what we're getting from the Western propagandist capitalist news machine Rolling Eyes

is that Russia is continuing it's attack into Georgia, well outside the disputed area. Russia has also blockaded and bombed Georgian sea ports. It seems pretty clear now that Russia has bigger plans.

#40: Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:27 pm
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mms://live.france24.com/france24_en.wsx
Livestream (it´s in english)

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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