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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#1: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:55 am
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So, I finally managed to play CCMT multiplayer (it turned out that for some weird reason I can't connect on a patched version) and I have mixed feeling about it.
While living players are a bit more intelligent than the AI, the atmosphere of the game (one of the things that I value greatly in CC series) suffers greatly.
While in single-player CC the atmosphere is like this, in multi-player it's more like this.

Seriously, there's something wrong when playing a game about war has similar emotional impact as watching a sugar-coated animu XD .
So, the opponent isn't retarded anymore but the whole computer games as art thing goes out of the window.
Hmm...

#2: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:29 am
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Therion wrote (View Post):

So, the opponent isn't retarded anymore but the whole computer games as art thing goes out of the window.

Maybe its due to play to much AI, and after the H2H reality check you might be in grate need of this.

Welcome to CC-H2H Therion, there’s no return now.

#3: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:22 am
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Therion wrote (View Post):

So, the opponent isn't retarded anymore but the whole computer games as art thing goes out of the window.

Maybe its due to play to much AI, and after the H2H reality check you might be in grate need of this.

Like in getting beaten up badly XD ? Not really Razz

. I'm winning most of time and one time I actually got defeated was when the opponent started spamming with a Wh40k AGL (we were playing without my CCMT:Revisited mod XD ).

It's more that it more like a friendly e-sport than like a war. I could as well paint all vehicles pink XD .

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Welcome to CC-H2H Therion, there’s no return now.

Thanks for the welcome Very Happy

. I still play my other mod against the AI, though.

#4: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:23 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):

It's more that it more like a friendly e-sport than like a war. I could as well paint all vehicles pink XD .

Haha, "friendly - painted pink", uhh-brr sounds more like you had some horrible experiance like this, , instead try something like this.

CC-H2H, theres nothing like it... Very Happy

Maybe you and me ought play some REAL (read CC5) CC-games,

#5: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:52 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):

So, I finally managed to play CCMT multiplayer (it turned out that for some weird reason I can't connect on a patched version) and I have mixed feeling about it.
While living players are a bit more intelligent than the AI, the atmosphere of the game (one of the things that I value greatly in CC series) suffers greatly.
While in single-player CC the atmosphere is like this, in multi-player it's more like this.

Seriously, there's something wrong when playing a game about war has similar emotional impact as watching a sugar-coated animu XD .
So, the opponent isn't retarded anymore but the whole computer games as art thing goes out of the window.
Hmm...

Single battles are much different than playing Grand Campaigns to. Losing your own men sometimes has far reaching consequences for your campaign, you certainly do a lot more to protect them when you need them day after day. Losing a single panzershrek can affect your game many turns down the road. Its kind of the same effect vs the AI, but H2H your teams get hunted, support teams that die are victories and losses your opponent values.

CCMT also gives you the 5x5 ability. Can be confusing at times since all your forces are the same colour and look identical... That was also a totally different feeling. As soon as CCM came out six of us had a game together soon after.

I can't see the Youtube video from work.. what is it?

#6: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:49 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Haha, "friendly - painted pink", uhh-brr sounds more like you had some horrible experiance like this, , instead try something like this.

It doesn't matter how difficult is the opponent or what are the consequences of losing teams, it's still an e-sport, not a war drama. The main difference is that multi-player is about having fun together.

So, tanks can be still painted pink and guns can still shoot pink paintballs or laser tags regardless of "diffculty level".

mooxe wrote (View Post):

I can't see the Youtube video from work.. what is it?

A scene from Black Hawk Dawn.

#7: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:57 pm
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Quote:

It doesn't matter how difficult is the opponent or what are the consequences of losing teams, it's still an e-sport, not a war drama. The main difference is that multi-player is about having fun together.
So, tanks can be still painted pink and guns can still shoot pink paintballs or laser tags regardless of "diffculty level".

than CC is just not for you - nobody is perfect Smile

#8: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:54 pm
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CC is what you want it to be Therion.

If u feel the CC H2H battle is about having “fun together”, that ofcose don’t go that well with seeing the human opponent as the enemy, to whom you shall deliver pain and death.

But, ok I see what ye mean, but some play H2H just becose its more challangeing.

#9: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: JaguarWolf,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:26 pm
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Basically, he cant handle playing CC the way it is meant to be played. He's scared and so he's running back to play with little boys and the AI. Pathetic.

#10: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:58 pm
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I am not too sure what you mean. Its less satisfying killing a real opponent? Its more realistic to play AI?

"So, tanks can be still painted pink and guns can still shoot pink paintballs or laser tags regardless of "diffculty level"."

But every game is like that.

Anyways, the more I read into it seems you are reviewing Close Combat and hoping for an experience CC can't offer. CC is a top down RTS with a 100% junk AI with 2D graphics and its more fun H2H. Whats the deal?

#11: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: RD_DeathDealer, Location: Bavaria, Germany

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:35 pm
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Therion,

I'll be blunt, hopefully to no offense. As long as I have played CC, the AI has suffered. The computer does not plan, react or think ahead AT ALL. The AI does not vary in tactics (aggressive, defensive, hit and move, feinting,etc.). The end result is that once a gamer reaches a certain level of proficiency, the AI can be beat every time. Not so with human opponents.

I argue that in order to have the BEST gaming experience in CC, one must break away from the comfort zone of playing against the AI and accept some REAL challenges against human opponents of varying experience levels and gameplay styles. In my opinion, this is where one finds true competition and realism with the game.

#12: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:30 am
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Once again Therion provides spot on insight into the CC gaming experience. In the 90's I likened SVGA Air Warrior to the greatest sporting event for adults. The 100 player arena at GENIE was incredible. But is was mainly about competition and fun. And IT WAS fun.

CC H2H is in ways similar. For me, its not as fun as SVGA Air Warrior, but it is fun, and a lot depends on the opponent, becuase unlike SVGA Air Warrior, there are not 50 opponents circling overhead with their Spitfires.

Making the sides even, and just playing competively, over and over again can become boring. In SVGA Air Warrior sometimes you would log in, and the oposing country might have 2 times as many players as your country, making things a little more difficult for that day.

I have played my share of H2H games, and I have logged as much time with the AI as anyone. There is a place for both. But I must say, its really not that hard to set the AI up where it beats YOU EVERY TIME. You just have to give it more stuff. Thats all.

#13: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:43 pm
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JaguarWolf wrote (View Post):

Basically, he cant handle playing CC the way it is meant to be played. He's scared and so he's running back to play with little boys and the AI. Pathetic.

mooxe wrote (View Post):

I am not too sure what you mean. Its less satisfying killing a real opponent? Its more realistic to play AI?

"So, tanks can be still painted pink and guns can still shoot pink paintballs or laser tags regardless of "diffculty level"."

But every game is like that.

Anyways, the more I read into it seems you are reviewing Close Combat and hoping for an experience CC can't offer. CC is a top down RTS with a 100% junk AI with 2D graphics and its more fun H2H. Whats the deal?

Well, to me, it's a question of decorum.

When I experienced CC for the first time (it was CC3 demo. I think I was 15 then), it was so brutal and intense that it was scary. It was like watching a good war movie.
It loses this atmosphere when playing multi-player.

To illustrate the inherent problem of multiplayer gaming:

So, in single player it's one of the darkest and most violent games that I have ever played - I would place it in top 3 - and I have played a lot of such games - Manhunt, Legacy of Kain, Soldier of Fortune, Postal, Syndicate Wars, etc.
Frankly, I have abandoned most of my campaigns in CC4-5 because I was tired with the senseless bloodshed.
On the other hand multiplayer is cheerful as fuck.

Which leads to what I'd like to talk about - war-games as an e-sport and war-games as an art-form. Fun or a convincing depiction of warfare?
I think that despite higher capabilities of human players, the latter is almost impossible to attain in competitive multi-player. I have yet to play a game that wouldn't be a fun e-sport in multi-player.
Which is why I think that serious war-games need a strong single player mode with a good AI and well designed missions.

Returning to the question of decorum - I mentioned pink tanks - if multi-player gaming is fun, why paint the game like it was a serious business?
Why not a light hearted over the top violence (Mortal Kombat3, Fallout, GTA, Soldat, Metal Slug), or a simulator of non-lethal training/combat sport?

I think that decorum is important in computer games - fun should be fun and serious business should be serious business.
Some time ago Atomic was trying to make "Six Days of Fallujah" and the game took a lot of flak because some people think that war-games are only fun, which I was reminded about when I played CCMT in multi-player.

#14: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:09 pm
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Close Combat is serious fun.

Being serious is what propogates the fun.

#15: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: southern_land,

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:52 am
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depends who your opponent is. I've had some great games, others have put me right off H2H

#16: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: RD_DeathDealer, Location: Bavaria, Germany

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:49 am
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I still don't understand the difference in "atmosphere" that you are trying to express here.

#17: Re: CC vs the AI and Multiplayer Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:04 am
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The tensest and most stressfull games of CC I have experienced have been H2H. I've gone to bed and not been able to get to sleep replaying the battles over and over in my head(this time winning).

I still play 80+% of my games v the AI... good reliable sparring partner.

;)

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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