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#1: Socialized Healthcare Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:37 am
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Been following the USA's route on this.

Here in Canada its socialized. If I have a heartattack, any type of disease.. etc etc it costs me nothing. Costs nothing for my wife to have a baby in a hospital. Its great knowing that something that costs sooooo much is covered by my government. I really can't understand (aside from money reason) why anyone in states would object to some sort of government funded insurance or fully socialized system.

The protests against this system are wilder then the anti war protests we seen for Iraq. Whats the deal Americans? Why dont you want free or cheaper healthcare?

#2: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: 0202243,

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:24 am
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I also don't understand it
The reason of being against is probably money Shocked

#3: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Spinlock,

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:27 am
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On the surface, it doesn't make much sense, why would the general population actively fight against their own best interest ?

The reasons are really complicated, but most of it boils down to these facts:

Corporations have all the rights of a citizen. (first amendment ect.) That precludes ever finding a way to get corporate money out of the political process. (that would be violatiing thier right to representation )
Since money wins campaigns and real money comes from corporations. The politicians ignore their constituents and do what the fundraisers tell them to do. Otherwise the fundraisers will just back somebody else next election cycle. no big money, no congressional seat. The 2/3 of congress that are fighting against public healthcare are pretty much corporate whores.(for the healthcare/pharma industry) The money trail is not hidden in any way. The other component boils down to racists (will do anything to go against Obama) and dumb people. Most of the country wants public healthcare like canada, but they are a silent majority, its the crazies and tinfoil-hatters that are getting all the media time because its sensationalist. Because news media is also a business first. The ones with the craziest jabber are who are getting all the air time. It gives the impression that there is more opposition to healthcare reform than there really is.

#4: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:54 am
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utterly insane position the US has.

Even this site has this advert running

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#5: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:26 pm
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Just to expand a little on what Spinlock said...

There is a strong minority of extreme right wing folks who are out to stop anything Obama does at any cost, no matter the consequences (i.e. not allowing health care for the poor, uninsured, etc.). Because these people are so well funded, they are able to do these mass market campaigns to appeal to the lowest base of the Republican party (i.e. racists, uneducated, extremely religious, etc.) and work their way into the more popular media outlets (i.e. Fox News) to hit the moderate and centrist Republican groups.

The truth is the vast majority of Americans want public health care, just like we have public schools, medicare/medicaid etc. But corporations, allied with the fanatical extreme right, are trying to bend congress to its will. Why? Money and power, as usual.

#6: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Wonder9,

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:04 pm
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It's refreshing to hear opinions from outside the US about this. I'll admit my own outlook on this is cynical, but it seems that most here in America adhere to a "follow the crowd" mentality on nearly every issue rather than thinking for themselves.This is reinforced daily by the extremist pundits and corporate media outlets. Some have allowed themselves to be convinced that socialized medicine equates to socialism which might as well be communism in their eyes.

They believe they will have to wait in long lines to see a doctor or wait months for an operation. The irony is, most of them don't realize that their expensive private insurance is very likely to find a reason to deny their legitimate claim in order to conserve profits for the company. I know this after being involved in the health insurance business several years ago. The movie Sicko also provides some accurate examples of this.

I support efforts to reform healthcare in the US. I can't think of any country that has it where the citizens would willingly go back to paying for it out of their own pockets. The special interests here make this a very difficult proposition. It's ironic that the "freest" people in the world have become so dumbed down and allow themselves to be led by the nose so easily.

#7: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Panzermayer,

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:33 pm
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Where is the USA going to get the money for this? Dont you know that the USA is bankrupt? besides that the healtcare wont get any better.
The money that is now used to cover the insured citizens`s is going to be spread over the whole population including the illigal immigrants etc. and how is the same money going to give better healtcare when it covers more people?

Im not pro or con the new idea it just needs better thought and USA people need to know whats in the 1000 + pages bill and most politician`s (senate/congress) dont know shit about whats in it. I advice the USA commenters to realy investigate.
Please read this short article: http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/barry/2009/0911.html

#8: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:25 pm
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So have anything happened to you or your relatives which have a sosialized wealth care?

SHC is ineffective. Long queues and the attitude and quality of the "care" is awful.
That´s why I have also an insurance.

SHC is good for those who don´t want to make any effort in life and waiting free meal for everyday.
Maybe it´s the time that have changed my opinions about countries like mine where students and workers are the lowest filth on earth.

Carry on.

#9: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Pzt_Mac, Location: Oregon

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:15 pm
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I find it interesting that when it comes to something like health care, people suddenly ask, "where's the money?" But when it comes to invading a country like Iraq, congress starts writing blank checks with no oversight, and we end up 9 trillion dollars in debt.

The money for health care reform comes from balancing the current budget - i.e. cutting excessive spending. If there is going to be outrage about spending money for health care, I would also like to see some outrage for the lack of funding for our public education system. Just this years local schools in my state cut the school year by several days, teachers worked a day free of charge - with no cost of living increase (for the second year in a row), and programs like art, music, some sports, and after school activities have been eliminated.

Our priorities in the U.S. have been seriously compromised over the past fifty or so years by corporate interests.

The public option, which gives affordable health care to those in need, will not be the only option. The reason the right wing pundits (like Jennifer Barry in the article link listed above) say that it will be is to scare people into thinking the whole country is going Socialist. A government run health program simply offers an alternative to the plans that are already out there, and that everyone can choose freely. No one, not the government, not anyone, will ever force you to choose one or the other - even if you loose your job, or move, or whatever other lies they try to scare you with.

The insurance companies should be the ones scared right now - they've overcharged us, cut our coverage, and denied our claims for years. Now they want to cry when our government, a government that should be protecting us against abuses, comes to aid it's citizens? Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest.

A government option for health care is just that, an option. You don't want it? Don't buy it. But don't deny someone who needs it because of right wing propaganda.

#10: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:27 pm
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Pzt_Mac wrote (View Post):

I find it interesting that when it comes to something like health care, people suddenly ask, "where's the money?" But when it comes to invading a country like Iraq, congress starts writing blank checks with no oversight, and we end up 9 trillion dollars in debt.

Exactly.

I think once Obama gets this implemented the crying will die down, then people will realize just how great it is to have this umbrella of protection over them.

I watched his speech and read some of the stats rolling in the ticker. 62% of bankruptcies in the USA are because of medical bills, wow. 45 million people went without coverage for a length of time in the year 2008.

#11: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Senior_Drill, Location: 22134

Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:19 pm
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I haven't read what the US health care bill is (is it even out of committee yet?) but have followed the agi-prop and counter agi-prop reports. For those non-US types that view the whole debate in wonderment, bear in mind that a large proportion of Americans dislike government intrusions into our lives. Words and concepts like "taxation", "regulation", "entitlement" and "mandatory" trigger fighting responses, both for and against in us. Thus the widly-eyed rants and blantent media hype.

Be assured that the vast majority of us are looking at the issues and watching our elected legislators votes. The most liberal of us that want free health care for all know that that can not happen now. Our society is just not ready for that. And even the most conservative of us recognize that something needs to be done to halt and even roll back the unreasonable spike in health care costs in the last decade. Dichotomies arise when an ardent supporter of low cost health care has his stock portfolio heavily invested in insurance or pharmaceutical stocks ... robbing Peter to pay Paul could be coming right out of your retirement fund. A complex issue, to say the least, for the US.

One of the proposals that will never see the light of law was the $3800 penalty for not having some form or health insurance. Who thought up that one, fer crying out loud? Dun low income families for not being able to afford a $250 monthly premium? Insantity! Dudes, I've been on both sides of the economic fence, with a medical condition. Doing fine with great insurance and out of work with no insurance. The concept of fining me what amounts to $316 a month for not being able to pay $200 a month while struggling to pay the rent, keep the lights on and have something to eat on the table each day is total insanity. Welfare is better than that, at least it covers all medical expenses, including prescription meds. If you and your family are just getting by, what is the insentive? I now have a good job with so-so health coverage. My condition is contained and improving with insurance covering most of it. Co-pay can be your friend or it can be your enemy. The insurance that I have now, I have paid into to the tune of over $5200 year to date. It will be pushing $7300 by years end. (Gotta do something different about Dental. One root canal and fillings for my daughter wiped out the family plan for a year's worth plus $500 out of pocket. Nothing left for the frau and me except cash on the barrel head.)

One step at a time is the way the US will resolve this. All except the small minority heavily invested in the medical stocks will be effected in the long run, but even they will have some form of subsidiezed health care. Socialized medicine in the US? Not in my lifetime, which according to actuary tables, could be between 15 to 25 more years. After that, I don't give a rat's ass.

#12: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: ronson, Location: England

Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:16 pm
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Pzt_Mac wrote (View Post):

The insurance companies should be the ones scared right now - they've overcharged us, cut our coverage, and denied our claims for years. Now they want to cry when our government, a government that should be protecting us against abuses, comes to aid it's citizens? Yeah, I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest.

Couldn't agree with you more, here in Britain the Insurance companies took over part of the provision of pensions back in the 'Golden era' of Thatchers eighties and a mighty fine mess they have made of it, their greed for excessive profits lead to several going bust....who was the loser then?....to give you a clue you won't find the streets of London covered with destitute insurance company execs, but there's a hell of a lot of people now wondering how they are going to manage in their senior years.

As to the question of cost, maybe like the British govt. did in 1945 when Atlee set up the welfare state, some things like overseas expansion, be it military or corporate will have to be shelved.......sure it was great to have an empire that covered 1/3 rd of the worlds land mass, but it wasn't much consolation to the children born and raised in poverty, denied proper health care that lived (if they survived long enough) in some of that empires greatest cities.
Thankfully those days are now past and we in this country now have one of the best health care systems going, anyone can visit a doctors with a complaint and within a few weeks be referred to one of the top London hospitals and seen by a senior consultant. All this is paid for by a small stoppage from your income which goes direct to Govt. (the people who we elect) not to some 3rd party.

Yes you will get people who abuse the system, but that happens in all systems, as we have recently seen in the international banking world recently, and in reality it amounts to very little of the total budget in any case.

The United States lead the world when it came into being back in the 18th century, with its regard to the rights of man, so maybe its time again to pose the question......'Does the state exist for the benefit of its citizens or do the citizens exist for the benefit of the state'
Only the American people as a whole can supply their own answer to that.

Cheers
Ronson

#13: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Ryz, Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:36 am
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Good to hear opinions of those living with government run healthcare.

Every truth is first ridiculed, violently opposed, and then excepted as self evident.

#14: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:59 am
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That's a ridiculous statement!

#15: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:43 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Pzt_Mac wrote (View Post):

Its an old post, just now saw it and could not resist.

1. In the USA 95% of a persons lifetime medical costs, occur (on average) in the last 90 days of life. This was certainly the case with my mother and my father.

2. People mainly go bankrupt because they insist on dying in a hospital or hospice. And once you are admitted the hospital will insure that the costs overrun the limitations of your coverage.

3. Socialized health care is good for the meek, the stupid, and the impoverished, or other people, that somehow could not figure out how to provide "the umbrella of protection" for themselves.

4. Its been estimated that as much as 87% percent of health care costs are unnecessary in the fist place. Depends on the source, and I have seen varying estimates. People have and continue to seek treatment for hangnails, as an example. Or they run their babies to the the emergency room when their fever rises above 102 degrees. Or they go to the doctor when they have a viral flu.

5. My next door neighbor is a practicing MD, and he gets rich "treating" sick kids that will recover in the next fews days, even if they were not treated at all. Its the 21st century, people are weak minded.

#16: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:57 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

3. Socialized health care is good for the meek, the stupid, and the impoverished, or other people, that somehow could not figure out how to provide "the umbrella of protection" for themselves.

By that theory... if you recieve anything from your government you are meek, impovrished and stupid.

Whos defending your right to freedom? Can't do it yourself? Cant afford your own army? I guess you are too stupid to figure out how to make enough money for that.

Are your children getting educated up to high school? I guess the government is paying for those schools because you are too stupid to teach your own kids.

Who's highways are you driving on? Certainly not the ones you built.

#17: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Ryz, Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:13 pm
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Thank you for making my statement look good

schrecken wrote (View Post):

That's a ridiculous statement!

#18: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:32 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Stwa wrote (View Post):

3. Socialized health care is good for the meek, the stupid, and the impoverished, or other people, that somehow could not figure out how to provide "the umbrella of protection" for themselves.

Now, mooxe, you're a Canadien, so I wouldn't expect you to know too much about freedom, education, or roads, as it is in the USA.

But lets start with freedom. In a socialized world, you can expect the following:

1. The government will pay for your birth and your death.

2. The government will pay for your secondary education and subsidize most higher education, like college, etc.

3. The government will subsidize and/or insure your mortgage payments. They will also make your payements for you, if you cannot.

4. The government will pay your medical bills when you get sick.

5. The government will provide your job, and give you money when you are unemployed. They will pay for your job training too.

6. The government will tell you what drugs you should take, and what food you should eat.

7. The government will help you find a spouse or significant other.

OK, that should do it. There is really not much left after this, eh? So, basically , your freedom and your right to self detemination, has be forfeited to the government, which in the case of the USA, is your next door neighbors.

In time, your neighbors, will become disenchanted with you, and they might, for instance, decide WHEN you should die. The might pay for it, but you never know for sure, do ya Question

So, you see, you don't really need an ARMY.

Regarding education, the government is just telling you they are educating your children. Most post graduation tests prove otherwise.

Regarding roads, most of the ones I drive on everyday, were built and payed for by private land developers, without any government assistance. The interstate highway system being a noticable exception, is in total disrepair.

#19: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:55 pm
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I really can't understand what you are trying to say. I can tell that you have gone off the deep end of exaggeration.

#20: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:34 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Regarding education, the government is just telling you they are educating your children. Most post graduation tests prove otherwise.

You can't educate someone more than he is interested in getting educated. If kids want to get educated for 2s and 3s, it's abvious that they won't get 5s and 6s on graduation tests.

#21: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:40 pm
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Not hardly, here are some others

8. The government will decide how many children you can have, and the size and number of pets you can keep.

9. The government will implant electroinic devices into your body, so they can keep you under 24x7 surveilance.

A. The government will censor information you receive.

Now obviously, this list could go on and on, but each of these items are occuring, in some country, somewhere, on the planet, right now Exclamation

The trick, or the fun, is to identify, which country is doing what. After all, it's just a beeg UMBRELLA OF PROTECTION, right Question

Regards,

Stwa

#22: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:55 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):

Stwa wrote (View Post):

Regarding education, the government is just telling you they are educating your children. Most post graduation tests prove otherwise.

You can't educate someone more than he is interested in getting educated. If kids want to get educated for 2s and 3s, it's abvious that they won't get 5s and 6s on graduation tests.

Truth, be told, I believe what you mention, is the number one problem facing the education system today, at least in the USA.

The problem, is assesing fault, for this anomolie. Is it the children, the parents, the government, or ...

Why is this not really happening, in Belgium, for instance, or a couple of other dozen countries you can mention.

#23: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:12 am
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It's the ideology that everyone needs to have an university-level education or they are subhuman whose hard work is worthless or something like that.
If employers want parents/the state to provide for their full time workers just because they don't have higher education, then a lot of kids who should have just learned some simple trade and start to work for money and started to live on their own end up in high school to which they don't have predispositions.

Then there's the whole ideology that all kids should end up on universities, despite that technical schools and vocational schools that can provide a semi-decently paid trade exist.

Also, learning/teaching methods are horribly outdated in comparison to advancements in entertainment, advertisement, etc. which makes school a lot less interesting and makes stuff more difficult to learn than it should be.
Hell, they can't even make good textbooks. Compare an average textbook with a rulebook for a roleplaying game or a wargame. Horribly outdated and unattractive. Not to mention, that I haven't seen a single textbook in my life that could serve as a sole source of knowledge for exams for its subject.

How the hell are people supposed to learn for exams if they don't even have the necessary knowledge in the fucking textbook for that subject?
What the fuck are texbooks for?

To make things more fucked, up, one can get ill for a month and then discover that there's no way of obtaining notes from other students. Then what? All the knowledge necessary should be in a textbook and the textbooks should be as clear and easy to learn from as notes from lessons.

#24: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:20 am
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Also, it's kinda retarded that most of bad teachers can dictate notes that are much higher quality than textbooks chapters about the same subjects.

#25: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:43 am
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Taking in account that I've read tens of textbooks and none of them could provide me with the knowledge that a students notebook could, I can't help but to suspect that it's some kind of a conspiracy to prevent teachers from becoming outdated. After all, who needs a teacher when one can learn everything from a textbook?

Also, it's quite possible that a good textbook would be 3-6 times thinner than existing ones which would limit the incomes of their writers...

#26: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:57 am
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I like your last point, because I recently read where some of the universities were moving more an more to mathmateics labratories.

Instead of the students attending lecture, taking notes, and then doing homework.

They are a attending a lab, where a tertiary teacher (student or otherwise) helps them with the problems.

This way, the university can shed some of its math department.

#27: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:32 am
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You guys are just too serious in this forum. Wink

Come on, play the game with Stwa. Idea

Perhaps we shouldn't talk politics or anything that begins with the word socialized Question

If the country game is too hard, lets play the state game. Ok, I'll put in a few, and you guy name that state (or district).

1. The government will put you in jail if you spank your children in a grocery store.

2. The government will try to impeach you if you have sex in the oval office.

3. The government will auction the personal belongings of cannibals to raise money in leiu of donations or taxes.

Feel free to add some of your own. It's endless, trust me.

#28: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: ClicheGuevara,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:24 am
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Ok, i'll play along and feed the troll

Looks like someone can't tell socialism apart from totalitarianism, not really a good start.

Quote:

1. The government will pay for your birth and your death.

2. The government will pay for your secondary education and subsidize most higher education, like college, etc.

3. The government will subsidize and/or insure your mortgage payments. They will also make your payements for you, if you cannot.

4. The government will pay your medical bills when you get sick.

5. The government will provide your job, and give you money when you are unemployed. They will pay for your job training too.

6. The government will tell you what drugs you should take, and what food you should eat.

7. The government will help you find a spouse or significant other.

As far as I see it 1 is a pretty wierd complaint, since as far as i'm aware there is no "birth tax" and what are you supposed to do if someone dies penniless and alone? Leave them to rot where they fall?

2 makes perfect sense, a well educated society is a productive society. With regards to higher education, if it wasn't for govornment subsidies on tuition fees there's no way i'd be able to afford a university education. Even with them the £18,000 plus student loan repayments aren't easy to handle.

I'm no expert on insurance and mortgages so i'm leaving number 3 alone for now.

4 Is brilliant. You can't possibly appreciate the joy of free healthcare. I live in Britian and it's easily the best thing about living here.

As for 5, that'd be public sector employment, which even in a non socialist system would be police, firefighters, soldiers, civil servants and all sorts of other types that keep things running smoothly. If you think that's bad then well... I'm worried. As for unemployment benefit, it's a pretty useful way to stop the unemployed turning to crime to make ends meet or starving to death. Some people abuse it but many don't.

As for 6, I don't see much of a problem with a govornment telling you what drugs to take and food to eat. When it gets to forcing you that's another issue, but that's what a totalitarian govornment would do, and if the man is forcing pills down my throat i'd have bigger concerns than how closely their policies follow and particualr interpertation of Marxism.

7 is utter rubbish. But it is nice to see the old 1920's scare of socialists wanting to nationalize women coming back to the fore. Not heard that for a while!

Stwa wrote (View Post):

Not hardly, here are some others

The trick, or the fun, is to identify, which country is doing what. After all, it's just a beeg UMBRELLA OF PROTECTION, right Question

Regards,

Stwa

Ok, 8 might have been adopted by the Maoists to control population growth, but that doesn't make it a socialist value. Pure fantasy and paranoia.

Electronic implants!? Do you honestly believe this stuff? Although govornment survaliance is nothing new, the bush administration loved it and they weren't exatly socialist.. And as for censorship, most of the media and information we recieve is skewed and often self censored.

I just hope this is all mired in sarcasm and i've got the wrong end of the stick.

#29: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:52 am
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Hey, thanks for playing the game Exclamation

But we are all friends here, so go easy on the troll comments, K Idea

You did manage to answer some of the country stuff, so I will put those up. But I am not going to answer everything, until some other people have had a chance to guess. I will answer #1, since it is pretty difficult and its really 2 Countries instead of 1.

Also some of these there are more than one answer, but I will put the first correct answer in.

1. The government will pay for your birth and your death. Answer = Taiwan / USA (Oregon)

Taiwan Population Births
Oregon Pays for Death

8. The government will decide how many children you can have, and the size and number of pets you can keep. Answer = China (too easy)

China - One Child Policy

... and I think you answered this one along the way, so I am gonna give you credit for it.

4. The government will pay your medical bills when you get sick. Answer = Great Britain

Britain - Health Care System

#30: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:05 am
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If I was living in the states I would never ever put my kids into public schools.
Most of the states white kids (and asians) are minorities in public schools. They are attacked everyday.

Private schools are landing here too. First elementary school was opened here couple of moths ago.
At the moment 10% of students (elementary school + junior high school) are immigrants in Helsinki.
In some schools even 30%.

We have also these UNESCO funded schools. 2 of my friends mothers are teaching negroes. They say that negro kids don´t learn multiplication table even when they are 14 years old Shocked

So they can have those tables in tents.

One month ago, one of those UNESCO schools were seeking new principal.
Guess how many applied?

Yes, one person.

#31: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Blackstump, Location: Hunter Valley Australia

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:27 am
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Tippi you need to get a grip son, some of them "negro" kids could out math you and me! Some of them are even world leaders in their science. some of them are even world leaders! Im sorry to here that your moms friends feel that way. Maybe thats an enditement on their ability to teach or on their inability to to teach sombody whos different to them ? Either way those negro kids and all the "other" kids still need a good teacher so we dont end up with more racists in our world.

#32: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:36 am
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Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

If I was living in the states I would never ever put my kids into public schools.
Most of the states white kids (and asians) are minorities in public schools. They are attacked everyday.

Man, that's seriously fuck up. Anyway, here I would never put my kids (If I would have any) into a private school. Private schools here are for kids who didn't have a chance to get into a public school and are usually full of troublemakers.

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

Private schools are landing here too. First elementary school was opened here couple of moths ago.
At the moment 10% of students (elementary school + junior high school) are immigrants in Helsinki.
In some schools even 30%.

God, all that nation-mixing stuff is disgusting. Reading about it makes me feel sick.

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

We have also these UNESCO funded schools. 2 of my friends mothers are teaching negroes. They say that negro kids don´t learn multiplication table even when they are 14 years old Shocked

So they can have those tables in tents.

One month ago, one of those UNESCO schools were seeking new principal.
Guess how many applied?

Yes, one person.

Crazy stuff. So, Finland is importing uneducated savages? What's the point of doing it? What does the Finnish nation gain from it?

#33: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:04 am
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Blackstump wrote (View Post):

Tippi you need to get a grip son, some of them "negro" kids could out math you and me! Some of them are even world leaders in their science. some of them are even world leaders!

You're talking about Barrack Obama? He's not black. His mother was white. I don't get how anyone could consider him a representative of people of African descent when his black father disappeared from his life when he was 2.

Anyway, racism is a phenomena typical for multi-national mongrel states. I mean, people living in neighbourhoods based on race, choosing their friends basing on race? Building whole cultures around their race? How idiotic it is?

Blackstump wrote (View Post):

Maybe thats an enditement on their ability to teach or on their inability to to teach sombody whos different to them ? Either way those negro kids and all the "other" kids still need a good teacher so we dont end up with more racists in our world.

It's quite possible. From what I've read about the science of learning, our learning systems are horribly outdated and made to cater to only one specific learning style which isn't even a majority.

Anyway. My main problem is:
What the fuck are people from African countries that apparently have completely different school systems doing in Finland?

#34: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: vonB,

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:09 pm
—
Impressed with Drill's comments. As a liberal leftie socialist type myself, I do not expect much sensible debate with Americans on the whole, but it is a mistake to generalise. Once you get past the hype, media, and vested interests, I have found that Americans seem to be in favour in principle of having decent health care for all.

There is no 'free' healthcare anywhere on the planet. Someone pays for it. I pay for it out of taxation, and have no objection to that, even if it helps towards paying for someone else's treatment. The flip side of that, is that someone else is also paying for my treatment. The sum of that is that everyone is paying for everyone's treatment.

Bear in mind that the only way you are going to get universal services is through taxation. If you leave it to individuals, they will only pay for what they want, and by extension, the devil take the hindmost. The current (or soon to be previous) situation in the USA regarding healthcare seems to be a good example of that, unless we are to believe that everyone is able to get decent healthcare?

As to the argument that there isn't enough money for healthcare? Baloney. As already pointed out, trillions have been spent on Iraq and continue to be spent on Afghanistan, so don't insult me with that argument.

There seems to be this misguided attitude that what is good for me is good for all. If paying no tax is good for me, then it must be good for everyone. It is a specious argument. I have no problem understanding why people do not want to pay tax. It leaves you with more money. It's just human nature, but I do not think you need to have more than minimal intelligence to work out the consequences of nobody paying tax. The issue is about what you want and how much you are prepared to pay to get it. The 'social' issues arise when it comes to dealing with your attitude to how your money is spent on other people. Americans seem to resent this more than most. That is certainly the impression I get.

On the other hand, 'free' healthcare for me is good for all. 'Free' Schools for me is good for all, so it is not the principle that is broken, but as with just about anything, it is more about how it is applied.

To some degree, I see the Americans now being faced with the challange or consequence of their own ideologies. The enterprise culture does not provide social equanimity, and that is now coming home to roost. This must confuse and alarm those dedicated to the cause. Now it is down to the balance of care, that is how much do you care (about the circumstances of your fellow citizens)? People are starting to realise that business is not about social welfare, but making money for the owners and shareholders. The question is what (if anything) is anyone going to do about it?

Our Mrs Thatcher illustrated one of the lies, when she stated that enabling the wealthy to get wealthier would lead to social benefits becasue the extra wealth would 'trickle down' to everyone. What a joke! They did what human nature drove them to do, and keep all the extra wealth for themselves. The other lie is that becasue 'I' can do it, then everyone can do it. Opportunity does not guarantee equanimity either. The millionaire who started in penury claims that because he can do it, so can anyone. It's bullshit. So why isn't everyone who tries to become a millionaire a millionaire? The reasons are pretty obvious, but it merely demonstrates the lie.

For decades, the American psyche has been brainwashed and hoodwinked by people who are the very antithesis of socialism, in it's widest and least political sense, achieving extremes in such phrases as "Reds under the bed". It has developed into a paranoia. Americans seem to be the most paranoid people around, and paranoia prevents objective, logical thinking. This was illustrated by a street interview I saw when an American woman jumped up and down screaming (literally) that she refuses to accept an approach to healthcare such as the NHS because it was 'Communist'. Talk about ignorance! Breathtaking. Yet these are the kinds of attitudes that drive many Americans it seems to me.

I accept that I am not an American, and that I probably do not understand in every particular. Mea culpa. However, you can argue and rationalise yourselves into a hole if you are determined and ignorant enough. Sometimes, a simple perspective can illustrate simple truths. The devil is then in the detail. If a Nation is unable to provide decent healthcare for all it's citizens, then what does that say about the Nation? Any Nation, not just the USA. Argue and rationalise all you like. The truth is still there. Face it, or avoid it. Thankfully, America has a President who is prepared to face it. Once decent healthcare for all has been established for a while, I would not be surprised for the attitude to change to one of "how the heel did we never do this before", and any suggestion of retruning to the previous situation met with "over my dead body".

Progress, of sorts...

#35: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:28 am
—

Therion wrote (View Post):

Anyway. My main problem is:
What the fuck are people from African countries that apparently have completely different school systems doing in Finland?

Using our welfare system. They are bums.

Yesterday I met my friend and her mother. She said that everyday white women teachers are called: white whore, whore, filthy whore etc.. The list goes on and on. It is disgusting.
And one problem is that the Finnish teachers are briefed to teach as slow as the most retarded kid learns. And every time it is the negro kid.
According to IQ and the Wealth of Nations- book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) average African IQ is 70 (In Finland people with lower than 70 IQ are considered retarded).

P.S. Stumpy: What did you meant by putting the word Negro as "Negro" ?
In USA black people can use one of the three options on census: African-American, Black, or Negro.
Word Negro iz no racis youknowimsaying?

#36: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:55 pm
—

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

Therion wrote (View Post):

Anyway. My main problem is:
What the fuck are people from African countries that apparently have completely different school systems doing in Finland?

Using our welfare system. They are bums.

I meant how did they get there? Why were they allowed to get there?

Here, the main way to be allowed to stay here is to marry a local. It makes staying there easier than in western European countries, but it filters out some undesirables (people with IQ of 70, for example) and prevents creation of second-generation immigrants.

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

Yesterday I met my friend and her mother. She said that everyday white women teachers are called: white whore, whore, filthy whore etc.. The list goes on and on. It is disgusting.

What is this I don’t even

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

And one problem is that the Finnish teachers are briefed to teach as slow as the most retarded kid learns. And every time it is the negro kid.
According to IQ and the Wealth of Nations- book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations) average African IQ is 70 (In Finland people with lower than 70 IQ are considered retarded).

Yeah. One thing that some people can't get is that there are better and worse countries. If someone comes from a retarded country with extreme violence and corruption and a degenerate culture, it's hard to expect him to be a valuable addition to society. Which is why people from some countries shouldn't be let in.

#37: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:04 pm
—
They flew here and accidentally lost their passports when they arrived here and claimed that they are refugees.
So we have to pay them everything. It is the white man´s burden, you see.

#38: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:23 pm
—
Why aren't there laws that prevent such exploits?

#39: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:03 pm
—

Therion wrote (View Post):

Why aren't there laws that prevent such exploits?

You should ask that from EU.

Perhaps Finland have exploited so many African and Arabic countries that now is our time to pay back?

#40: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:55 pm
—
So, EU dictates the immigrant policy of its members O_o ?

#41: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:43 pm
—

Therion wrote (View Post):

So, EU dictates the immigrant policy of its members O_o ?

Yes if you are coming as a "refugee".
Of course that does not apply for whites, for example: white farmers from RSA which are going trough genocide there.

#42: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:45 pm
—
Crazy stuff. It would be interesting to draw a comic book about it. Something like the anti-communist Is This Tomorrow from the 50s.

#43: Re: Socialized Healthcare Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:31 am
—

vonB wrote (View Post):

Impressed with Drill's comments. As a liberal leftie socialist type myself, I do not expect much sensible debate with Americans on the whole, but it is a mistake to generalise. Once you get past the hype, media, and vested interests, I have found that Americans seem to be in favour in principle of having decent health care for all.

There is no 'free' healthcare anywhere on the planet. Someone pays for it. I pay for it out of taxation, and have no objection to that, even if it helps towards paying for someone else's treatment. The flip side of that, is that someone else is also paying for my treatment. The sum of that is that everyone is paying for everyone's treatment.

Bear in mind that the only way you are going to get universal services is through taxation. If you leave it to individuals, they will only pay for what they want, and by extension, the devil take the hindmost. The current (or soon to be previous) situation in the USA regarding healthcare seems to be a good example of that, unless we are to believe that everyone is able to get decent healthcare?

As to the argument that there isn't enough money for healthcare? Baloney. As already pointed out, trillions have been spent on Iraq and continue to be spent on Afghanistan, so don't insult me with that argument.

There seems to be this misguided attitude that what is good for me is good for all. If paying no tax is good for me, then it must be good for everyone. It is a specious argument. I have no problem understanding why people do not want to pay tax. It leaves you with more money. It's just human nature, but I do not think you need to have more than minimal intelligence to work out the consequences of nobody paying tax. The issue is about what you want and how much you are prepared to pay to get it. The 'social' issues arise when it comes to dealing with your attitude to how your money is spent on other people. Americans seem to resent this more than most. That is certainly the impression I get.

On the other hand, 'free' healthcare for me is good for all. 'Free' Schools for me is good for all, so it is not the principle that is broken, but as with just about anything, it is more about how it is applied.

To some degree, I see the Americans now being faced with the challange or consequence of their own ideologies. The enterprise culture does not provide social equanimity, and that is now coming home to roost. This must confuse and alarm those dedicated to the cause. Now it is down to the balance of care, that is how much do you care (about the circumstances of your fellow citizens)? People are starting to realise that business is not about social welfare, but making money for the owners and shareholders. The question is what (if anything) is anyone going to do about it?

Our Mrs Thatcher illustrated one of the lies, when she stated that enabling the wealthy to get wealthier would lead to social benefits becasue the extra wealth would 'trickle down' to everyone. What a joke! They did what human nature drove them to do, and keep all the extra wealth for themselves. The other lie is that becasue 'I' can do it, then everyone can do it. Opportunity does not guarantee equanimity either. The millionaire who started in penury claims that because he can do it, so can anyone. It's bullshit. So why isn't everyone who tries to become a millionaire a millionaire? The reasons are pretty obvious, but it merely demonstrates the lie.

For decades, the American psyche has been brainwashed and hoodwinked by people who are the very antithesis of socialism, in it's widest and least political sense, achieving extremes in such phrases as "Reds under the bed". It has developed into a paranoia. Americans seem to be the most paranoid people around, and paranoia prevents objective, logical thinking. This was illustrated by a street interview I saw when an American woman jumped up and down screaming (literally) that she refuses to accept an approach to healthcare such as the NHS because it was 'Communist'. Talk about ignorance! Breathtaking. Yet these are the kinds of attitudes that drive many Americans it seems to me.

I accept that I am not an American, and that I probably do not understand in every particular. Mea culpa. However, you can argue and rationalise yourselves into a hole if you are determined and ignorant enough. Sometimes, a simple perspective can illustrate simple truths. The devil is then in the detail. If a Nation is unable to provide decent healthcare for all it's citizens, then what does that say about the Nation? Any Nation, not just the USA. Argue and rationalise all you like. The truth is still there. Face it, or avoid it. Thankfully, America has a President who is prepared to face it. Once decent healthcare for all has been established for a while, I would not be surprised for the attitude to change to one of "how the heel did we never do this before", and any suggestion of retruning to the previous situation met with "over my dead body".

Progress, of sorts...

You must have missed the 20th century. Exclamation

It's not about socialism, or capitalism, or who has money, or who does not have money.

It's about eliminating the useless. A theme that will grow louder and louder over time. Idea

Remember, Soylent Green is people Exclamation

Oregon Pays for Death

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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