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#1: Elements question Author: Spinlock,

Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:11 pm
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when looking over the elements file, there is something that creates some confusion.
For example: The elements 'High grass' and 'Crops' have a height of 2. They also have hindrance values above 0, but the field 'Block los' is set to
false for these elements.
So am i correct in assuming that 2 soldiers laying prone in high grass at any distance would have perfect LOS on each other?
shouldn't the "block los" value be set to true for these elements?

#2: Re: Elements question Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:06 am
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Block LOS is like a wall, it is something solid. So no it should not be set to true for high grass.

You need to look at the hindrance values, as the number of each element viewed across/through is added together and when a certain number is hit LOS is blocked....

#3: Re: Elements question Author: Senior_Drill, Location: 22134

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:54 am
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Spinlock wrote (View Post):

when looking over the elements file, there is something that creates some confusion.
For example: The elements 'High grass' and 'Crops' have a height of 2. They also have hindrance values above 0, but the field 'Block los' is set to
false for these elements.
So am i correct in assuming that 2 soldiers laying prone in high grass at any distance would have perfect LOS on each other?
shouldn't the "block los" value be set to true for these elements?

To expand a bit on Tejszd's post:

There is a difference between Hinderence and Block. Hinderence has three values: Prone, Crouch and Standing. The hinderence to LOS in each catagory is a cumlative effect across multiple element tiles. Cumulative totals across element tiles totaling less than 450 reduce the LOS in each position catagory by increasing factors. Beyond a total of 450, all LOS is blocked. Also, line of fire is reduced by Hiderence. Cumulative totals greater than 350 blocks a line of fire: You might see them, but can't get a clear shot. This setting is typically applied to ground and vegatation element types.

Block means, well, it blocks. There is no LOS and no line of fire beyond that element type. This it typical of walls and fences. Notice that there is another Block LOS - Block All LOS which blocks any LOS to a unit in an adjacent element tile. The difference here would be like being behind a wood wall, but one can see through the knot holes and cracks and being behind a stone wall with no sight to the enemy.

Hinderence is the hardest concept to grasp. Height of the element type per tile plays a factor. Height is in 1/2 meter increments, so a height of 2 = 1 meter. A prone soldier gains more hinerence than a crouching soldier and a standing soldier has little to no hinerence on a level LOS for most field type elements, which are typically coded with a Height of 1 and 2. Elevation is also factored in by the game engine. On a well coded map, if your soldiers are in a ditch facing a 1 meter tall wheat field, you may see running infantry out to a couple hundred meters, but you may not see crawing infantry until they are very close.

#4: Re: Elements question Author: Spinlock,

Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:58 pm
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Thanks guys, that clears it up.

Another question. How is the soldiers height changed by its stance? (prone,low, med, high)
Does the game do a ray cast to the target? excluding elements that have a level, does a standing soldier have a
different height for LOS than a prone soldier or is accumulated hindrance the only thing used?

#5: Re: Elements question Author: Senior_Drill, Location: 22134

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:21 am
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Soldiers do have a height difference by their stance, but I don't have any idea by how much or how the game engine calculates it. I can't recall an instance where it was noticable to me for my units while attacking, but I have seen the effect while defending. I've watched as an enemy team in a wheat field become visible when they stood up to run, then disappear when they dropped back to prone.

#6: Re: Elements question Author: Dfox,

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:32 pm
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And a small question from me...

I'm using 3C Cartographer for map coding. So is it necessary to remake LOS files for the maps if I want to change any element data in Elements.adb ?

#7: Re: Elements question Author: Senior_Drill, Location: 22134

Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:03 pm
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In general, yes. It depends on what it is you are changing. If you are just replacing elements that have the same height like a Wood Fence for a Stone Fence, then the game will handle the hinderences and evaluate the LOS for adjacent units per the Elements file. In this case, generating a new LOS, which can take a few hours, would not be necessary.

If you are adding new elements or removing old ones that have significant height (more than 1/2 meter), like trees and buildings, then you do need to spend the processing time to cook a new LOS file.

A note about coding and recoding maps: Whether you use 3C or 5CC, you need to ensure that you are using the proper Elements file for the version of game your mod is for, and that you have all the tree graphics WITH APPROPRIATE SHADOWS for that version. Both come with stock trees and a small selection of tree shadows. If you are using additional trees in the Terrain file, you should make sure that these are in the editors and have additional shadows in the support files. Nothing looks silllier on a map than having leaf tree shadows for pine trees or pine tree shadows for palm trees.

#8: Re: Elements question Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:29 am
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Senior_Drill wrote (View Post):

... In this case, generating a new LOS, which can take a few hours, would not be necessary.

Are you still using an ancient machine, Drill? Wink

Generating new LOS using 5CC on modern PCs should only take a few minutes.

#9: Re: Elements question Author: Senior_Drill, Location: 22134

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:22 am
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Four years old might be considered ancient, I'll admit. However, I am a card carrying member in good standing of a Luddite cult. I prefer to use 3C.

#10: Re: Elements question Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:55 pm
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squadleader_id wrote (View Post):

Senior_Drill wrote (View Post):

... In this case, generating a new LOS, which can take a few hours, would not be necessary.

Are you still using an ancient machine, Drill? Wink

Generating new LOS using 5CC on modern PCs should only take a few minutes.

Damn, I need squad's machine. I've got a dual core running at 2.6 with 3gb pc6400 ddr2 and it still takes almost an hour for a large CC5 map (3600 x 3600) to generate LOS in 5CC...that's if my screensaver doesn't come on and I don't bump the mouse causing it to lock up.

#11: Re: Elements question Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:35 pm
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Three LOS calcs on various machines around the house

LOS on a celeron 1.7

LOS on a celeron 2.6

LOS on a P4 2.8

These were on the same map.

unfortunately 3C won't calc LOS on maps using expanded elements files, 5CC does the job superbly though.

#12: Re: Elements question Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:03 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):

Strange...
I'm not running a super machine...it's a 3 year old AMD Athlon64 X2 4000+, 2,5GB DDR2 PC5300. Generating LOS for large CC5/TLD map like Isigny (3600x2640) takes around 3-4 mins.
What version 5CC are you using, Linebacker? I'm using Mafi's 5CC v1.14 (W2K-Vista).
Looks like Schreck's machines are also struggling...are those with 3C?

#13: Re: Elements question Author: Dfox,

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:09 pm
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I don't want to add new or delete old elements, but to change the hindrance or height for....mmm... High Grass. Looks like that after this change I have to make new LOS file for all maps with High Grass. Am I right ? Rolling Eyes

#14: Re: Elements question Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:02 pm
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squadleader_id wrote (View Post):

Our machine specs are nearly identical...I'm on Athlon 64X2 4400, 3GB DDR2 PC6400. Guess the difference is that I am about 5 builds of 5CC behind...I'll make sure and grab the newest one.

#15: Re: Elements question Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:07 pm
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Quote:

Looks like Schreck's machines are also struggling...are those with 3C?

yep 3C on my older machines.

I haven't made a LOS using my newer dual core machines......... yet.

#16: Re: Elements question Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:16 pm
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Even using my Celeron M Laptop (1GB RAM), with an older build of 5CC, it takes only about 4-5 minutes to generate LOS on small maps.
And that's using the 'conventional' emulating method...generating LOS using the faster "elevation and mega tiles" options takes only a few secs.
I'm running WinXp SP3...not Vista Wink

#17: Re: Elements question Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:42 pm
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just checked pegasus bridge map from tLD

Using 5CC it took 42 seconds to create LOS file on 2.8ghz P4

I think it's safe to say 5CC generates a LOS file much quicker than 3C (remember 3C is not capable of generating LOS files for the modern releases)

#18: Re: Elements question Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:15 am
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So why is Linebacker's PC is struggling with 5CC LOS creation...older build of 5CC or maybe running on Vista?
Have you installed the Microsoft dual-core patch for AMD procs on your machine, Linebacker?

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