Realism On Ground (ROG) mod
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#1: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:14 am
    —
After playing through half of the TLD GC ... I am of the opinion that some changes would make battles more realistic and balanced.
Therefore, I'm thinking of modding some parts of TLD to accomplish this.

I'll list some of the areas that are considered for change, and possible solutions.

1) Medium Mortars play too large a roll concerning infantry movement and casualties, especially if changes to the Active Roster are allowed ... and several of these units are chosen. I also think it best to have 3 man Recon Teams.
Both of these could be changed by: replacing all medium Mortars with Recon Teams.
I think there is already Recons Teams in the Teams file ... so it may be possible to simply exchange them. Is it possible to assign the Recon Teams to the BG's using a number value instead of the Mortar number?
Availability of Recon Teams would remain the same as the replaced Med. Mortars.

2) MMG and HMG changed to 3 man Teams ... in order to get better Line of Sight for gunner.

3) 30 mins battles is too long for beach maps, and 15 mins is short for inland ones. Therefore a 20 min battle time will be set for battles.

4) Increase number of Naval barrages available ... and also try and have them available for some maps that are on the inland side (and next to) beach maps.

5) Increase number of Mortar barrages available ... compensating for the lack of Medium Mortars. There will probably be one Mortar barrage available to each side for most battles.

6) Include OnGroundFX sound mod

These changes, although not many, may be all that is needed to get more realistic and better balanced game play.
Anyone wanting to help with this mod ... please send me a PM

Thanks
David

Last edited by davidssfx on Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
#2: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:36 pm
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Yes get rid of medium mortars, I just did a quick test and cut&paste ab-81 mortars and ab-recon and switched places and it worked, tried to only change the class value but it didn't work, seems the game counts line by line or something. They have the availability of mortars though, that could be from 1 through 4 for each turn with a 2.5 average. To change availability one would have to modify the FPools.txt file for all turns and all difficulties.

Other changes could be:

-Change the description of BAR team from 'MG team' to Medium Infantry or something.
-Give molotovs to Osttruppen and other german infantry
-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.

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#3: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:12 pm
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Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.


Don't want to be a wiseacre, but the M1919A6 wasn't issued to Airborne units until after the Normandy campaign.  Embarassed

And davidssfx. Isn't this a good way to start your modding-carrier? It's easy to work with tLD if you got Excel. If I had more time on my hands I could help you, but I'm busting my balls at work right now, can hardly get enough time and brain-functions for my own little project.  Crying or Very sad
#4: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:57 pm
    —
Really? I thought they were. Well they have a lot of .30 cals as it is right now, is this historical? I mean they have this MG teams that I think were done to counter the Grenadier MG teams but I don't know if the allies had such a thing like MG squads, I decided to change the A4 with the A6 because they seem more appropriate. I know the paratroopers where not issued the BAR or it was in very little numbers and the .30 cal is too heavy and cumbersome to be used as a an assault weapon besides they have too many, but having just rifle teams on AB BG seems so boring so I guess MG teams need to stay for the sake of gameplay
#5: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:10 am
    —
@ Pzt_Kanov

The AB had tons of the M1919A4 .30cal MG, one in every 12-men squad (instead of the BAR as you mention,) two additional unallocated in every Platoon and eight in the light machine gun platoon of the battalion; -Giving a full Battalion 44 of these beasts!!

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/UnitedStates/Airborne/united_states_parachute_infantry%20battalion%201942%20to%201944.htm
 
The modified A6 version came later, in an attempt to create a true LMG, but some of the modifications weren't appreciated by the gunners:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

And a final note: The US rifle-squad (Both regular army and AB) were 12 men strong, divided into a five men 'gun-group' (MG or BAR) for fire and a seven men 'rifle-group' for movement and assault. (The 'rifle-group' could then be further split into 5+2 for a two men scout or Bazooka team...)
#6: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:28 am
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Weren't BARs dropped in cannisters on D-Day?  I read also that the PIR troops obtained/swapped BARs from GIR troops...so maybe having a limited number of AB (PIR) LMG squads with the BAR showing up on day 3-4 should be fun.
Recon teams should be available for the AB...no more using Zook teams for scouts Wink
#7: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:56 am
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squadleader_id wrote (View Post):
Weren't BARs dropped in cannisters on D-Day?  I read also that the PIR troops obtained/swapped BARs from GIR troops...so maybe having a limited number of AB (PIR) LMG squads with the BAR showing up on day 3-4 should be fun.


Hey Squadleader, haven't seen you in a while.  Smile
Don't know about cannisters, but you're right about the 'organisation' of BARs from the glider troops (82nd Airborne, of coarse.) Was searching the net about BARs in the airborne divisions a month or two ago (didn't save the bookmarks for the pages,) but it seems like they received BARs (with a system to jump safely with them as well) for the Rhine-crossing, with the exception of at least one soldier in the 82nd who cut the stock of a BAR and jumped with it during D-day.  Rolling Eyes

squadleader_id wrote (View Post):
Recon teams should be available for the AB...no more using Zook teams for scouts Wink


Nope, no more 'zooka-scouts'!! The two-men teams of the 'rifle-group' should be used in one of the following roles:

A) Scouts, two men with M1 Garand who walks, talks and most likely getting killed by the Jerrys they find. No solo-missions for the scouts, keep them close, keep them safe...
B) Bazooka team, there were a unallocated Bazooka in every Platoon, as well as one in the Company (with another three of them in the LMG Platoon as well as the Mortar Platoon of the Battalion) Giving a complete Battalion as many as 18 Zooka-teams.
C) LMG team, two unallocated M1919A4 in every Platoon.
#8: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:31 am
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Nice info Woulf, you have convinced me of changing back the A4 .30 cal for the MG teams.

I also found this site which you have probably already seen, it is about a debriefing of the 82nd in Normandy. They said that some soldiers did jump with BARs but not many of them and the Generals would have liked at least 2 per stick.

"The weapons section we had contained machine guns in the squad, we jumped with some BAR'S, but would like to replace the machine guns with BAR'S, because looking for the machine guns holds us back at first."

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus/en_page.php?page=debriefing
#9: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:54 am
    —
Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
Yes get rid of medium mortars, I just did a quick test and cut&paste ab-81 mortars and ab-recon and switched places and it worked, tried to only change the class value but it didn't work, seems the game counts line by line or something. They have the availability of mortars though, that could be from 1 through 4 for each turn with a 2.5 average. To change availability one would have to modify the FPools.txt file for all turns and all difficulties.

Other changes could be:

-Change the description of BAR team from 'MG team' to Medium Infantry or something.
-Give molotovs to Osttruppen and other german infantry
-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.


Hi Pzt_Kanov,
Thanks for checking that out, and getting the Recon Team as replacements for Med. Mortar.
And for the other info.
#10: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:57 am
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

-Change the .30 cal 1919A4 from the AB-MG team to the 1919A6. Leave the .30 cal MMG team as it is.


Don't want to be a wiseacre, but the M1919A6 wasn't issued to Airborne units until after the Normandy campaign.  Embarassed

And davidssfx. Isn't this a good way to start your modding-carrier? It's easy to work with tLD if you got Excel. If I had more time on my hands I could help you, but I'm busting my balls at work right now, can hardly get enough time and brain-functions for my own little project.  Crying or Very sad


Hi Woulf,
Thanks for the info you've posted here.
#11: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:07 am
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As for the (MG) Teams.
This class of Team is putting an unrealistic amount of MG fire power into play.
I would prefer any Team ending in (MG) to have its MG replaced with a sub machine gun ... like a Thompson or MP40.
There are many other Teams with MG42, BAR, Bren, etc.
#12: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:57 am
    —
No probs mates, always glad to help.  8)

And Pzt_Kanov, I've got that page, but haven't got around to read the debriefings. Seems to be a lot of info in them as well, thx for pointing that out.

Quote:
As for the (MG) Teams.
This class of Team is putting an unrealistic amount of MG fire power into play.
I would prefer any Team ending in (MG) to have its MG replaced with a sub machine gun ... like a Thompson or MP40.
There are many other Teams with MG42, BAR, Bren, etc.


The eternal discussion of mg's  Wink
My humble opinion is that there's a realistic amount of mg's in the game, but it's a question of taste. You should at least keep the heavy mg's, since they weren't squad level weapons but rather a support weapon. And the US Airborne had no HMG, so they should keep their M1919A4s (The M2HB were in fact an AA-MG...) And looking at the Commonwealth doctrine a 10-men squad had a Bren, either in the rifle section (7 men, with a 3 men recce group) or as an individual 3 men Bren group with a 7 men rifle section. Hence you should keep the small Bren group for realism.

If you don't want the MG-teams, why not remove them from the BG's instead of creating some type of SMG teams?

Good luck and cheers
#13: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:48 am
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
No probs mates, always glad to help.  8)

And Pzt_Kanov, I've got that page, but haven't got around to read the debriefings. Seems to be a lot of info in them as well, thx for pointing that out.

Quote:
As for the (MG) Teams.
This class of Team is putting an unrealistic amount of MG fire power into play.
I would prefer any Team ending in (MG) to have its MG replaced with a sub machine gun ... like a Thompson or MP40.
There are many other Teams with MG42, BAR, Bren, etc.


The eternal discussion of mg's  Wink
My humble opinion is that there's a realistic amount of mg's in the game, but it's a question of taste. You should at least keep the heavy mg's, since they weren't squad level weapons but rather a support weapon. And the US Airborne had no HMG, so they should keep their M1919A4s (The M2HB were in fact an AA-MG...) And looking at the Commonwealth doctrine a 10-men squad had a Bren, either in the rifle section (7 men, with a 3 men recce group) or as an individual 3 men Bren group with a 7 men rifle section. Hence you should keep the small Bren group for realism.

If you don't want the MG-teams, why not remove them from the BG's instead of creating some type of SMG teams?

Good luck and cheers


I meant just the Teams as listed in the Force Pool (in game) that have MG in brackets ... like this: Grenadiere (MG).
I think this only relates to German Teams ... since the Airborne units are listed as MG Teams.

My point was ... some of these German BG's have two MG42 Teams, and two Grenadiere (MG) Teams.
This puts four MG42's on a single CC map. Then if changes to the Active Roster are allowed .... then there will probably be two more.
Either way it's just too much fire power for the amount of soldiers available.

By editing out the MG42's from the teams ending with "(MG)" ... you will still have a unique and powerful unit left, with: two MP40's and two K98 rifles.

I can see two MG42 Teams supporting, but four or more is unrealistic ... imo. And since this mod does away with the 81mm mortar ... the Allied infantry are going to have to take out the ATG's. No more quick one or two mortar rounds finishing off an ATG.

sorry for the confusion ... I did mention a Thompson, but was just tired when writing.
The U.S. Airborne does need "MG Teams" since they have no BAR's.

Also, from what I can see in the game ... the U.S. Airborne doesn't have BAR's , which I think is OK.

Thanks for your help.
btw, if it sounds like I don't know what I'm talking about ... I don't mind being corrected.  Smile
#14: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:06 am
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davidssfx wrote (View Post):

My point was ... some of these German BG's have two MG42 Teams, and two Grenadiere (MG) Teams.
This puts four MG42's on a single CC map. Then if changes to the Active Roster are allowed .... then there will probably be two more.
Either way it's just too much fire power for the amount of soldiers available.

By editing out the MG42's from the teams ending with "(MG)" ... you will still have a unique and powerful unit left, with: two MP40's and two K98 rifles.

I can see two MG42 Teams supporting, but four or more is unrealistic ... imo. And since this mod does away with the 81mm mortar ... the Allied infantry are going to have to take out the ATG's. No more quick one or two mortar rounds finishing off an ATG.


I haven't touched CCTLD for a few months now...but those German infantry with MGs...aren't these squads assigned LMGs with limited ammo and not suitable for prolonged sustained fire like HMGs and dedicated LMG teams?
IMHO they're more suitable for assault roles...or mobile defense.

Quote:

The U.S. Airborne does need "MG Teams" since they have no BAR's.

Also, from what I can see in the game ... the U.S. Airborne doesn't have BAR's , which I think is OK.



US AB PIR BGs don't have BARs...but US AB GIR BGs do have BAR teams.

Last edited by squadleader_id on Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
#15: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:15 am
    —
My bad David  Embarassed

Thought you meant the MG teams (as in M1919A4 .30 cal MG), but I'm tired as well.

But you have to choose between realism and game-play in this case, because the high number of German MG's isn't unrealistic.  Confused  It's called 'Dual Base of fire', giving each infantry squad two machine guns (or BAR's in the US infantry squad). You can read more about it (and other aspects of small unit tactics) here:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tactics/Formations/rifle_squad.htm
 
But you don't have to follow this, everyone doesn't have to be a 'realism-freak' like me!  Wink Your idea about SMG's instead (or why not StG44, to compromise between a MG and a SMG) might just as well. The goal is a good game, isn't it?

And don't think of my posts as 'corrections', I'm just enjoying to share my lifelong interest in WW II and unit organisation with others. Since I've got Gremlins in my h2h gaming (and I can't enjoy vs. AI games any more) I might as well share the fruits of hours of research? CC gets to you, and if you can't do one thing, then you have to concentrate on another aspect of the game.  Cool
#16: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:33 pm
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quoted by squadleader_id
"I haven't touched CCTLD for a few months now...but those German infantry with MGs...aren't these squads assigned LMGs with limited ammo and not suitable for prolonged sustained fire like HMGs and dedicated LMG teams?
IMHO they're more suitable for assault roles...or mobile defense."

Thanks squadleader_id ... I didn't realize they had less ammo

quoted by squadleader_id
"US AB PIR BGs don't have BARs...but US AB GIR BGs do have BAR teams."

If that is the way TLD has it now ... then I don't think there needs to be any changes regarding BAR Teams in U.S. Airborne BG's.
Even if some 82nd units had BAR's ... it sounds like it was more unique than the norm.
#17: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:53 pm
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
My bad David  Embarassed

Thought you meant the MG teams (as in M1919A4 .30 cal MG), but I'm tired as well.

But you have to choose between realism and game-play in this case, because the high number of German MG's isn't unrealistic.  Confused  It's called 'Dual Base of fire', giving each infantry squad two machine guns (or BAR's in the US infantry squad). You can read more about it (and other aspects of small unit tactics) here:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tactics/Formations/rifle_squad.htm
 
But you don't have to follow this, everyone doesn't have to be a 'realism-freak' like me!  Wink Your idea about SMG's instead (or why not StG44, to compromise between a MG and a SMG) might just as well. The goal is a good game, isn't it?

And don't think of my posts as 'corrections', I'm just enjoying to share my lifelong interest in WW II and unit organisation with others. Since I've got Gremlins in my h2h gaming (and I can't enjoy vs. AI games any more) I might as well share the fruits of hours of research? CC gets to you, and if you can't do one thing, then you have to concentrate on another aspect of the game.  Cool


Thanks for the link Woulf ... very interesting.

Maybe the best way to proceed is to keep it simple. Get the medium mortars out, and the scouts in ... then test.

I would like to be able to use some of the tactics mentioned in that link, but with the medium mortars ... it seems there isn't any way to move without using the crawl command ... unless you are willing to take big losses.
#18: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:39 pm
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I just checked and noticed that the following teams use the leMG42 which in the game is the 'assault' version of the MG42 with the ammo drums, these are the ones that have limited ammo at 50 rounds per clip with 5 clips and assault fire (fire on the move), they are designated as personal weapons so no need to have an assistant, also means that when the guy dies, no other member of the squad gets the weapon:

-PzAufklärer(MG) - Regular and SS
-PzGrenadiere(gp)

The others that are designated with an (MG) have the regular belt fed MG42.

I don't know how I feel about this, I guess in one hand the germans have too many MG's but on the other hand they probably had that many historically and also gives them an advantage against infantry where allies have an advantage in everything else.

Another related but different issue, how would you guys feel if the BAR was designated as a personal weapon? i.e. only one man fires and controls it, no need for an assistant but when the BAR guy dies the gun is lost, until it is scavenged and then maybe.
#19: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:09 pm
    —
Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
I just checked and noticed that the following teams use the leMG42 which in the game is the 'assault' version of the MG42 with the ammo drums, these are the ones that have limited ammo at 50 rounds per clip with 5 clips and assault fire (fire on the move), they are designated as personal weapons so no need to have an assistant, also means that when the guy dies, no other member of the squad gets the weapon:

-PzAufklärer(MG) - Regular and SS
-PzGrenadiere(gp)

The others that are designated with an (MG) have the regular belt fed MG42.

I don't know how I feel about this, I guess in one hand the germans have too many MG's but on the other hand they probably had that many historically and also gives them an advantage against infantry where allies have an advantage in everything else.

Another related but different issue, how would you guys feel if the BAR was designated as a personal weapon? i.e. only one man fires and controls it, no need for an assistant but when the BAR guy dies the gun is lost, until it is scavenged and then maybe.


Thanks for checking into the leMG42
I didn't realize it can fire on the move and that no assistant is required.

I'm not sure about the BAR using the same kind of values, but I guess in kind of depends on how other LMG's are designated ... and how others feel about it.
#20: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:02 pm
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Yes, it has been this way since CC3, cc2 had the assault MG but it wasn't used until some guys at TH discovered it in the data and made the unofficial 3.X patches.

Regarding the BAR I see it like an auto-rifle not really a MG and also uses magazines instead of ammo boxes so its lighter and if you set it as personal weapon you free a guy from the squad to use his rifle, though the carrier becomes very slow unless you modify the weight of the weapon and clips. Being crewed serves the purpose of having the BAR 'bounce' to another soldier when the original gunner is killed though.
#21: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:43 pm
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Figured out the Naval support for any/all maps.

Now Naval support available for all maps.

Naval barrage will represent both Naval and heavy Artillery/Mortar support

Mortar barrage will represent Medium Mortar support ... since Medium Mortars are no longer available in BG's.

Since Naval barrages are available as soon as the battle starts ... this will represent a pre attack barrage. And most significantly, it will hinder/stop H2H players from stacking units around the sometimes very small entry/attack deployment zones. This should solve one of the most annoying aspects of the game. :)

The amount of both Naval and Mortar barrages as well as Air Strikes will be adjusted too.
#22: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:08 pm
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Awesome!
#23: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:32 am
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Quote:
Naval barrage will represent both Naval and heavy Artillery/Mortar support
Mortar barrage will represent Medium Mortar support ... since Medium Mortars are no longer available in BG's.
Since Naval barrages are available as soon as the battle starts ... this will represent a pre attack barrage. And most significantly, it will hinder/stop H2H players from stacking units around the sometimes very small entry/attack deployment zones. This should solve one of the most annoying aspects of the game. Smile

hehe, and you removed 81mm mortars as beeing too big threat for ATGs...
to mass more men and equipment than your opponent in one spot is a skill and not "annoying aspect of the game" Smile.
#24: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:58 pm
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Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Naval barrage will represent both Naval and heavy Artillery/Mortar support
Mortar barrage will represent Medium Mortar support ... since Medium Mortars are no longer available in BG's.
Since Naval barrages are available as soon as the battle starts ... this will represent a pre attack barrage. And most significantly, it will hinder/stop H2H players from stacking units around the sometimes very small entry/attack deployment zones. This should solve one of the most annoying aspects of the game. Smile

hehe, and you removed 81mm mortars as beeing too big threat for ATGs...
to mass more men and equipment than your opponent in one spot is a skill and not "annoying aspect of the game" Smile.


hahaha ... good one :)

It turns out there is a maximum amount of each type of support available for each day ... Naval, Mortar, Air.
That maximum number is 10 ... so with four turns per day, you will still have to plan where to put your support. Beach maps will require most of it ... so there isn't enough Naval support for a player to use for every battle, but since there is a possibility of a player using it on any map ... it should keep the opposing side from totally surrounding a small single deployment zone.
For example:
I may assign a Naval support for an attack at Carentan Causeway. When the battle starts, and if I see the German defender has placed all his/her units across the bridge in the first field and/or house ... then I will target this area with a Naval barrage.
I'm sure some real life battles started with an assigned heavy support barrage anyway, especially if it was an obvious ambush with a bottleneck approach.
This will allow the Allies to get across the bridge and set up defenses and get ready for their next move forward.
The German defender may gamble that the attacker won't waste a Naval support ... and still put everything forward. Or decide to layer his/her defenses back through the depth of the map ... so as to minimize losses if and when a Naval support in launched.

Players should agree though ... not to use Naval support when a German BG has only one small deployment zone.

I'm thinking these changes will promote defenders to layer their defenses more, and thus allow a better chance for the Allied side to conduct maneuvers that portray more realistic WW2 type action ... instead of just having the attacker walk into a single preset ambush, with no other options available.
Once a Naval and/or Mortar barrage is fired, there is no more heavy support ... or Medium Mortars. So if a defender has well placed and layered defenses (that are hard to spot) ... some will probably survive and will have to be knocked out by units on the ground.

Both sides will be able to move around better without Medium Mortars slowing everything down to a crawl.

It seems some battles are fought in the deployment stage with every possible angle of line of sight directed at one small corner of a large map. I hoping these changes will promote more realistic movement, tactics, and strategy.

Just theory now ... but should be ready to test soon.
#25: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:14 pm
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Pzt_Kanov joined the effort, and has done some brilliant editing ... along with excellent ideas.
He did the bulk of editing.

Here is the readme file describing the changes. Some testing will have to get done before it's released.

TLD Realism On Ground (ROG) mod ver1

-Medium Mortars removed
-5cm Mortars added to German BG's
-MMG and HMG changed to 3 and 4 man Teams
-Recon Teams added
-2 inch Mortar smoke capabilities added, and new firing sound
-M7 Spigot made into a new weapon, and new firing sound
-Schiessbecher made into a new weapon
-2 pzfaust 30 for German pzjäger teams (of all branches)
-Spatrupp: replaced MP44 with MP40
-Changed BG Team types for some BG's to have AI choose Recon Teams instead of Mortars
-Light Mortar explosion animation size increased
-.50 cal now has visible impact graphic
-Added a crew to the Füsiliere(MG) team
-Grenade explosion animation size increased
-Created separate GIR and PIR Platoon and Company HQ
-Allied Naval Support available for all maps
-All Support values changed (Naval,Mortar,Air)
-OnGroundFX sound mod included
-other corrections

Last edited by davidssfx on Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:38 am; edited 1 time in total
#26: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:16 am
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Also ...
1) 316 Pz.Kp./Panzer Lehr will replace 901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr BG ... and bring with it: three Tiger 1's and 9 StuG III's.

note: I have the Tiger's in the BG (and StuG III G's), but have to figure out some BG things, as well as make new corresponding identity graphics. And also see if there is an icon that works for the BG screen.

The addition is based on this information;
Panzer Kompanie (Fkl) 316 subordinated to the Panzer Lehr Regiment got the five first production Tiger IIs to replace its StuG IIIs in February 1944. When the allies landed in Normandy, these were in poor mechanical condition and it was decided to send them back to Germany. However, transport could not be arranged and the remained in France at Chateaudun where they were destroyed to prevent capture. The Funklenk company fought in Normandy with the Panzer Lehr Regiment, beginning with 9 StuG IIIs and 3 Tiger Is. 7 StuG IIIs were still operational in July 1944, shortly before the unit was withdrawn and handed over to the newly formed Panzer Abteilung (Fkl) 302.

2) Naval barrage will be available to German BG's on Day 8 and 9 ... although in limited quantities. This represents the Heavy support brought to Normandy by Panzer Lehr. Any (non beach) map below Bayeux (on the Strat map) will be able to call for this Heavy support.

note: the in game voice says "Naval support available", but should say Heavy support available. If anyone wants to voice act and record "Heavy Support Available" ... (for Allied and Axis) then I will replace the Naval stuff. Otherwise I will leave it as is ... with the understanding that Naval means Heavy support.
#27: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:38 am
    —
you could pinch the vox file from WaR
#28: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:43 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
you could pinch the vox file from WaR


Good idea. Thanks schrecken,
.... never played WaR, so I didn't realize it had those voice cues.
#29: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:53 am
    —
the only thing in it that will upset you is "The snow is slowing us down"

But just pinch the ones you need


I think it's #97 you are looking for

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/WaRVox.html
#30: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:12 am
    —
Looking good!  Great work, Guys!
When's the 'ETA' for the mod?  Maybe I can throw in some graphics stuffs (new expanded custom rank graphics, Roque5's weapons art, maybe a new main screen and other minor stuff).
#31: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:43 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
the only thing in it that will upset you is "The snow is slowing us down"

But just pinch the ones you need


I think it's #97 you are looking for

http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/WaR/WaRVox.html


Thanks ... that was very helpful  Smile
#32: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:02 am
    —
squadleader_id wrote (View Post):
Looking good!  Great work, Guys!
When's the 'ETA' for the mod?  Maybe I can throw in some graphics stuffs (new expanded custom rank graphics, Roque5's weapons art, maybe a new main screen and other minor stuff).


Thanks for the comment, and offer to help.
As far as an ETA ... very soon.
And for graphics ... to start with:

1) All menu graphics that identify BG "901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr" need to be changed to "316 Pz.Kp./Panzer Lehr".

2) A Battle Group screen icon needs to be made for the "Tiger I".

3) Your other ideas sound good too.
#33: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:20 pm
    —
Here is the Tiger icon done ... also have the Strat map 316 Panzer Lehr icon done.
Any ideas of the exact locations of the other ones ... like top right (Panzer Lehr) of this jpg?

ROG Tiger icon.jpg
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ROG Tiger icon.jpg
#34: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:15 am
    —
Nice work on the Tiger icon!
#35: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:01 pm
    —
Yes, it looks very nice.
#36: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:06 am
    —
Quote:
1) All menu graphics that identify BG "901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr" need to be changed to "316 Pz.Kp./Panzer Lehr".

316.PzKp(Fkl) was attached to Pz-LR.130. Why there is no PzIV on your pic? Wink.
Strange ratio of AVF, why only 2 StuGIII but all 3 TigerI made it's way to FP? Smile
#37: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:28 am
    —
the changes look good david / game rat! i look forward to trying it out! thanks for modding TLD it needed it!
MSN me and we'll play test it together!

RD Steiner
#38: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:13 am
    —
Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
1) All menu graphics that identify BG "901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr" need to be changed to "316 Pz.Kp./Panzer Lehr".

316.PzKp(Fkl) was attached to Pz-LR.130. Why there is no PzIV on your pic? Wink.
Strange ratio of AVF, why only 2 StuGIII but all 3 TigerI made it's way to FP? Smile


It seems these three Tigers of 316 did end up with Panzer Lehr ... somewhere around Caen (I think) ... but like many things that happened in Normandy, there is much mystery.
The only reference I've found mentioning associated armor was found here:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/borgward-iv-sdkfz-301.htm

Quoted from above link: The Funklenk company fought in Normandy with the Panzer Lehr Regiment, beginning with 9 StuG IIIs and 3 Tiger Is.

I inferred from the quote above that the three Tigers were deployed with or near to the 9 StuG IIIs.
Also, looking at the reference ... it seems FKL used StuG IIIs.

As for the 316 BG ... it has not yet been assembled. The screen shot was just too ask about the icon location.
316 will have all three Tigers in the Active Roster along with a SdKfz 251 and various supporting infantry. The StuG IIIs will fill in the roster if/when any Tigers are lost.
I'm guessing these three Tigers would have been deployed together, but there seems to be no record of them fighting or surviving, but it does say ... 7 StuG IIIs were still operational in July 1944,
Maybe the Tigers were knocked out up front and some of the StuG III's pulled back and survived (at least until July). Since there is no detailed history ... I'll just go with this for now.

Very interesting history ... even though it's only a small amount of information.
#39: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:14 am
    —
stiener wrote (View Post):
the changes look good david / game rat! i look forward to trying it out! thanks for modding TLD it needed it!
MSN me and we'll play test it together!

RD Steiner


Thanks ... sounds good
#40: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:45 pm
    —
Quote:
Quoted from above link: The Funklenk company fought in Normandy with the Panzer Lehr Regiment, beginning with 9 StuG IIIs and 3 Tiger Is.

Panzer Lehr Regiment = PLR.130 - tank regiment - so my question remains - where are the tanx? ;)

Quote:
I inferred from the quote above that the three Tigers were deployed with or near to the 9 StuG IIIs.
Also, looking at the reference ... it seems FKL used StuG IIIs.

initially it had 5 KT and 3 T1 and 50+ BIV.
after it appeared that all the Tigers were not combat ready - various problems with engines and suspensions - it was decided to reequip it with 10 StuGIII in May.

Quote:
As for the 316 BG ... it has not yet been assembled. The screen shot was just too ask about the icon location.

IMO it should not be 316 BG but PLD BG with 316.PzKp attached.

Quote:
I'm guessing these three Tigers would have been deployed together, but there seems to be no record of them fighting or surviving, but it does say ... 7 StuG IIIs were still operational in July 1944,

These 3 T1 indeed didn't have any combat in Normandy and were sent back to factory in Germany.
But they were counted with 316.PzKp(Fkl) by June 6th so who cares Smile.

Quote:
Maybe the Tigers were knocked out up front and some of the StuG III's pulled back and survived (at least until July). Since there is no detailed history ... I'll just go with this for now.

check above Smile.
#41: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:07 am
    —
IMHO david, as your modding it to give the germans a little teeth etc.........give that BG its 9 Stugs too....and as Dima suggests, maybe a few MK 4's as well? but at least the full 9 Stugs.

RD Steiner
#42: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:08 am
    —
Taking advice from Dima and Steiner ... BG 901Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr will be replaced by 130 Pz./Panzer Lehr.

Let's take a look at its order of battle to see what units should be included in its Force Pool.

Panzer-Lehr-Regiment 130

I. Panzer Abteilung
  4 x Kompanie (Panther)

II. Panzer Abteilung
  4 x Kompanie (Panzer IV)
  Panzer-Kompanie (Funklenk) 316 (Tiger)

I. Panzer Abteilung is actually I/Pz.Rgt. 6, and wasn't sent into Normandy action until Jone 11th ... so no Panthers from I. Panzer Abteilung will be considered.

II. Panzer Abteilung was committed to action on June 9. Therfore... Panzer IV's, Tiger I's, and StuG III's will fill BG slots of 130 Pz./Panzer Lehr.

Reference:
The II./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 902 went into action on the morning of 8 June. The following day the II./Pz.Rgt. 130, Pz.Gren.Rgt. 901, I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 902 and Pz.Jäg.-Lehr-Abt. 130 were committed. On 10 June the Panther battalion arrived and it was sent into action the following day.

Another quote from Niklas Zetterling's Normandy 1944:
Also it seems that the Panzer-Kompanie 316 (Funklenk), which was attached to the Panzer Lehr Division, had three Tiger I's when it went to Normandy.Thus it is most likely that 126 Tiger I's participated in the Normandy Campaign.

The initial Active Roster will have:
Second Platoon:
1-Befehlspanzer IV H
2-Pz IV H
1-Tiger I
1-StuG III G

First Platoon:
1-Zugtrupp
1-PzGrenadiere (MG)
1-PzGrenadiere
1-Panzerschreck
1-sMG42

Support Teams:
1-Zugtrupp
1-SdKfz 251/1
1-5cm Mortar
1-Panzer Pioniere
1-Spahtrupp-Scouts

Totals:
1-Befehlspanzer IV H
12-Pz IV H
3-Tiger I
9-StuG III G
10-SdKfz 251/1
#43: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:20 am
    —
looks good to me.......some teeth Smile
#44: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:26 am
    —
Request
Could someone please post the WaR uniticons bmp ... so I can see if it has a Panzer icon I could hack out?
#45: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:03 am
    —
Quote:
Another quote from Niklas Zetterling's Normandy 1944:
Also it seems that the Panzer-Kompanie 316 (Funklenk), which was attached to the Panzer Lehr Division, had three Tiger I's when it went to Normandy.Thus it is most likely that 126 Tiger I's participated in the Normandy Campaign
.
The time Z. was written his book he was basing on report from early June 1944 that counted 3 T1 with 316.PzKp(Fkl).
Nowadays there are new reports found that state those 3 T1 were sent back to Germany shortly after 316.PzKp(Fkl) was deployed to St.Denis .

I suggest at least 1 SdKfz 251/10 to replace at least 1 Zugtrupp as PLD PzGrenBats were highly mechanized, actually the only PzD during the war that had HT for each Trupp.

Btw, StuGIIIG was renamed to StuGIII in early 1944 Smile.
#46: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:27 am
    —
Ah, back from 'the maniac weeks' at work!  Cool

Nice work David (and Pzt_Kanov of coarse), a lot of progress since I last read this post. Looking forward to test your mod.

Cheers
#47: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:56 pm
    —
Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Another quote from Niklas Zetterling's Normandy 1944:
Also it seems that the Panzer-Kompanie 316 (Funklenk), which was attached to the Panzer Lehr Division, had three Tiger I's when it went to Normandy.Thus it is most likely that 126 Tiger I's participated in the Normandy Campaign
.
The time Z. was written his book he was basing on report from early June 1944 that counted 3 T1 with 316.PzKp(Fkl).
Nowadays there are new reports found that state those 3 T1 were sent back to Germany shortly after 316.PzKp(Fkl) was deployed to St.Denis .

I suggest at least 1 SdKfz 251/10 to replace at least 1 Zugtrupp as PLD PzGrenBats were highly mechanized, actually the only PzD during the war that had HT for each Trupp.

Btw, StuGIIIG was renamed to StuGIII in early 1944 Smile.


Hi Dima,
Do you have any reference to these new reports regarding the Tiger I's not participating in Normandy. I thought you just mixed up the fate of the Tiger II's which were supposed to get shipped back to Germany, but transport was busy ... and therefore the Tiger II's were destroyed at Chateaudun.

Thanks for the other suggestions.
#48: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:42 pm
    —
Quote:
Do you have any reference to these new reports regarding the Tiger I's not participating in Normandy

in 2003 (3 years after the book was released) Z. posted information (don't remember now what forum it was) that according to the new document found, on April 26, 1944 Tank School Bergen asked PLD to return 3 T1 it took there and chassis numbers were indicated. In May they received StuGIII as replacement. In July 1st report no T1 was with PLD, no T1 losses for June either Smile.
All 5 KT remained at St.Denis till August and were destroyed there.
#49: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:02 pm
    —
links to some info below

Last edited by davidssfx on Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
#50: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:05 pm
    —
Quote:
I'll keep them in game until these new reports can be verified.

yes, as I told before, they were counted with PLD in June report, so who cares Wink.
#51: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:32 pm
    —
i say keep them in the game too. there in GJS mod as well. it adds a little spice to the game. after all its a mod......... Very Happy
#52: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:44 am
    —
This just came in from another forum:

According to Funklenkpanzer by Marcus Laugitz (ISBN 0-921991-58-4) and taken from a request from Pz Lehr:

"..Since the delivery of operational Tiger II's is unlikely at present, the division has - as a temporary measure - assigned 9 assault guns to the remote-control company from the 3./Pz.Jag.-Lehr-Abt 130 to supplement it's 3 Tiger I's. Company is therefore deemed conditionally operational.

Request your approval.
Panzer-Lehr-Division Operations
No. 1436/44 geheim, 19 May 1944 "

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428360
#53: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:29 am
    —
Looks like this has been debated before ... as Dima suggested. I'll post this next link and leave it at that.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7345
#54: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:52 am
    —
its your mod......and u have our support i think...put the tigers in...the Stugs and the Mk4's........ Very Happy
#55: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:17 am
    —
stiener wrote (View Post):
its your mod......and u have our support i think...put the tigers in...the Stugs and the Mk4's........ Very Happy

yes, they are all included.
... thanks for sending me that bmp Smile
#56: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:45 pm
    —
active roster for 130

still need to adjust scout, mortar, schreck teams in other German BG's

Pz.130-Lehr Active Roster.JPG
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Pz.130-Lehr Active Roster.JPG
#57: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:01 am
    —
looks like a BG i want to fight with!
#58: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:38 am
    —
David,

there were no 5cm mortars in PLD.
Maybe it's good idea to add some Pumas? Wink
#59: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:00 pm
    —
Dima wrote (View Post):
David,

there were no 5cm mortars in PLD.
Maybe it's good idea to add some Pumas? Wink


ya ... the 5cm is a tough one to figure out for this mod. I realize they were being phased out and replaced by the 8cm, but since this mod is removing all 8cm mortars ... a compromise somewhere had to be made - historical vs. game play.

All medium/heavy mortars are now simulated by off map mortar barrages ... which is fine, but that leaves some German BG's without any light mortar fire and smoke. I've figured it best to just have low quantity 5cm mortar in all BG's to compensate for this. Probably not historical, but might be the best solution for the purpose of this mod.

I've seen 5cm mortars listed for some German units in Normandy, but since it is a small weapon ... it may not have been listed consistently throughout different record keeping. As you say though, there probably wasn't any in Lehr.

I'll put a couple of Puma's in though.

Thanks for your comments
#60: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:09 am
    —
Quote:
I've seen 5cm mortars listed for some German units in Normandy, but since it is a small weapon ... it may not have been listed consistently throughout different record keeping. As you say though, there probably wasn't any in Lehr.

5cm were listed with Type 1941 IDs only.
PzDs didn't have 5cm from 1941 Smile.
#61: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:19 am
    —
Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
I've seen 5cm mortars listed for some German units in Normandy, but since it is a small weapon ... it may not have been listed consistently throughout different record keeping. As you say though, there probably wasn't any in Lehr.

5cm were listed with Type 1941 IDs only.
PzDs didn't have 5cm from 1941 Smile.


Hi Dima,
So which Divisions in Normandy may have had 5cm mortars ... and which didn't.

I will remove 5cm from any BG's that fit in the didn't category. Those BG's will have to use smoke other than from mortars. I prefer historical anyway ... just need some help figuring out who had 'em.

Thanks
#62: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:00 am
    —
Hi David.

Talked to Dima about this some weeks ago, he said "709 and 716 had them for sure as they were Type 1941 Bodestandig (static) divisions".

Cheers  Smile
#63: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:21 pm
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Hi David.

Talked to Dima about this some weeks ago, he said "709 and 716 had them for sure as they were Type 1941 Bodestandig (static) divisions".

Cheers  Smile


Thanks
#64: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:30 pm
    —
Took my 15 minutes Smile.
#65: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:35 am
    —
Renamed the mod:
TLD Ground Tactics

Here is the latest readme file ... just have a few small things to check over with Pzt_Kanov, and then should be good to go.


TLD Ground Tactics (GT) mod ver1

-Medium Mortars removed
-5cm Mortar added to German BG's (limited quantities)
-MMG and HMG changed to 3 and 4 man Teams
-Recon Teams added. Most BG's have one in Active Roster
-Naval support changed to Heavy support. Voice cues don't say "Naval". Note: text info "in game" still shows "Naval"
-Allied Heavy Support available for all maps
-German Heavy Support available for (non beach) maps below Bayeux (on the Strategic map) ... in limited quantities on June 8,9. This represents Heavy support brought to Normandy  
-Support quantity values changed (Naval,Mortar,Air)
-BG 901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr replaced with 130 Pz./Panzer Lehr
-Tiger I added to 130 Pz./ Panzer Lehr
-130 Pz./Panzer Lehr arrives on June 9
-902/Panzer Lehr arrives on June 8
-2 inch Mortar smoke capabilities added, and new firing sound
-M7 Spigot made into a new weapon, and new firing sound
-Schiessbecher made into a new weapon
-2 pzfaust 30 for German pzjäger teams (of all branches)
-Spatrupp: replaced MP44 with MP40
-Light Mortar explosion animation size increased
-.50 cal now has visible impact graphic
-Added a crew to the Füsiliere(MG) team
-Grenade explosion animation size increased
-Created separate GIR and PIR Platoon and Company HQ
-Added another MG42 to FJ (MG) Team
-Minor adjustments to some Allied Airborne BG's
-Reduced number of Panzerschrecks in some BG's
-Some Allied BG's arriving on June 7,8 will have three tanks instead of two in Active Roster
-One less ATG for some German BG's
-DD's replace 57mm ATG in Active Roster for 16/1 and 26/1
-OnGroundFX sound mod included

Important notes about other settings:

-Battle Groups have been set to: not return after being disbanded, due to a TLD "no cohesion" bug when disbanded BG's
return, and also because the retreat option has a bug also. It may be best to uncheck "when force morale gets too low" ... in the Command screen options
-German Heavy support has been enabled only in the Grand Campaign (The Longest Day). If wanted in other battles, operations,Campaigns ... you will have to enable it in the scenario editor for each specific one.
#66: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:07 am
    —
looks good,,,,,except i dont agree with reducing the number of shrecks. the problem with TLD is the fact that its only 4 days long and the germans are hopelessly out numbered and OUT GUNNED. the germans dont have enough A/T guns and tanks to begin with and now they have there shreaks reduced too..........i dont think this is condusive to making the game better.
my 2 cents

RD Steiner
#67: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Dima,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:42 am
    —
Btw, PLD was the only unit during the war that really had 1 RPzB per each PzGren Trupp Smile.
#68: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:41 am
    —
I hadn't reduced the Panzerschrecks by much ... but following the above comments, I've put their quantities back to the original game amounts.
For most static BG's, there is only one in the Active Roster though.
#69: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:28 am
    —
The list looks great! Nice work!

davidssfx wrote (View Post):

-Naval support changed to Heavy support. Voice cues don't say "Naval". Note: text info "in game" still shows "Naval"


You can edit that text in CCResourceDLL.dll.
Use a nifty free program called ResHacker to edit the file.
#70: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:49 pm
    —
squadleader_id wrote (View Post):
The list looks great! Nice work!

davidssfx wrote (View Post):

-Naval support changed to Heavy support. Voice cues don't say "Naval". Note: text info "in game" still shows "Naval"


You can edit that text in CCResourceDLL.dll.
Use a nifty free program called ResHacker to edit the file.


hahaha ... funny you mention that. Pzt_Kanov responded to my question about the the "Naval" text editing ... last night while chatting.
Soon as I heard it involved hex editing ... I said, I'd just leave it as is.
... maybe I should at least give it a try.

Thanks for the heads up.
#71: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:15 pm
    —
It worked ... great program.  Smile
Now says "Heavy support available"

Thanks again squadleader_id
#72: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:06 pm
    —
Just tried a single battle for some testing ... and found a good match up (without making any changes to the Active Roster).

130/Panzer Lehr against the Brit 185/3.
The 185/3 has three Fireflies ... any of which can punch a hole in the front of a Tiger I in one shot from close range. Makes for an interesting battle.
#73: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:18 pm
    —
Opinions please:
I want to lock the BG's, so players have to play with what is given them ... since a lot of effort was made to make formations as historically correct as possible. I think there is a lot more value in gameplay if players have to work with what they have, instead of stacking their BG's with unrealistic numbers of certain units.
That is one of the main reasons for doing this mod, was to try and better simulate combat tactics.
But I guess the BG's could be left unlocked and let the players decide if they want to allow changes or not.

So ... should BG's be:
A) Locked
B) Unlocked?
#74: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:27 pm
    —
well its your mod............most players if there smart will use a mix with only a few tanks any ways.........unless your DD  Embarassed
sometimes tho if the push is on you need 6 or 7 tanks........
i have mixed feelings.......i could play either way i guess.......but as i said its your mod and what do you want to try and acomplish  Wink
#75: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:32 pm
    —
I would go for unlocked, but that's because I really hates locked BG's!! (Couldn't stand CC4 because of this, never finished a campaign or even an operation...)

As a 'field-commander' I prefer to choose the best units for the battle at hand. Avoiding unrealistic BG's is as much a matter of tactics and personal honour, a realistic force is a mix of units from the 'Task Force' (BG) you command fitted for the task at hand.

But no matter what choice you make I'm looking forward for this mod.

Cheers
#76: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:13 pm
    —
Thanks for the input ... I'll leave them unlocked and let players decide what they prefer beyond that.
#77: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:18 pm
    —
Thanks Pzt_Kanov for your time, effort, and editing skills ... much appreciated!

... and thanks to contributors of technical help, historical information, and comments.

David
#78: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:23 pm
    —
This mod is done ...
It was decided to have a least one 5cm Mortar for every German BG. Even if not historically correct, it was the only way to have Mortar smoke available ... since the 8cm was removed. BG's are unlocked, so if you want historical accuracy ... don't use 5cm for those specific BG's.

Here is the final list of changes:

TLD Ground Tactics (GT) mod ver1

Compatible with: TLD version 5.50.07 (Released: 4 NOV 2009)

-Medium Mortars removed
-5cm Mortar added to German BG's (limited quantities)
-MMG and HMG changed to 3 and 4 man Teams
-Recon Teams added. Most BG's have one in Active Roster
-Naval support changed to Heavy support. Voice cues don't say "Naval"
-Allied Heavy Support available for all maps
-German Heavy Support available for (non beach) maps below Bayeux (on the Strategic map) ... in limited quantities (June 8,9). This represents Heavy support brought to Normandy  
-Support quantity values changed (Naval,Mortar,Air)
-BG 901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr replaced with 130 Pz./Panzer Lehr
-Tiger I added to 130 Pz./ Panzer Lehr
-130 Pz./Panzer Lehr arrives on June 9
-902/Panzer Lehr arrives on June 8
-2 inch Mortar smoke capabilities added, and new firing sound
-M7 Spigot made into a new weapon, and new firing sound
-Schiessbecher made into a new weapon
-2 pzfaust 30 for German pzjäger teams (of all branches)
-Spatrupp: replaced MP44 with MP40
-Light Mortar explosion animation size increased
-.50 cal now has visible impact graphic
-Added a crew to the Füsiliere(MG) team
-Grenade explosion animation size increased
-Created separate GIR and PIR Platoon and Company HQ
-Added another MG42 to FJ (MG) Team
-Minor adjustments to some Allied Airborne BG's
-Reduced number of Panzerschrecks in Active Roster of some BG's
-Some Allied BG's arriving on June 7,8 will have three tanks instead of two in Active Roster
-One less ATG for some German BG's
-DD's replace 57mm ATG in Active Roster for 16/1 and 26/1
-Molotov added to Ost
-Other minor corrections/adjustments
-OnGroundFX sound mod included

Important notes about other settings:

-Battle Groups have been set to: not return after being disbanded, due to a TLD "no cohesion" bug when disbanded BG's return, and also because the retreat option has a bug also. It may be best to uncheck "when force morale gets too low" ... in the Command screen options
-German Heavy support has been enabled only in the Grand Campaign (The Longest Day).If wanted in other battles, operations,Campaigns ... you will have to enable it in the scenario editor for each specific one.
#79: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:40 pm
    —
Nice work! btw just saw the intro screen, looks very cool.
#80: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: golani_2,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:01 pm
    —
Sounds awesome, but where is the download link? Very Happy
#81: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:41 pm
    —
golani_2 wrote (View Post):
Sounds awesome, but where is the download link? Very Happy


Hi,
I've submitted it to mooxe for review.
Therefore, it may be available in the Close Combat Series download section ... some time in the future.

Thanks
#82: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:33 pm
    —
Decided to hold off with the upload for a bit, in order to do some "Elements" editing.

as part of the list of changes:

-Small Hedgerow, changed to: block Line of Sight
-Large Hedgerow, changed to: similar to Bocage ... vehicles can't pass through

As in Normandy ... each field surrounded by hedgerows was a separate battlefield.

The above changes will reflect more realistic terrain conditions, as follows:
1) No Line of Sight through any Hedgerow, Hedge, or Bocage ... unless unit is directly beside
2) Vehicles can not pass through Large Hedgerows ... similar to Normandy
3) Tanks can only get very limited Line of Sight through Large Hedgerows ... similar to a small gap in real life
4) ATG's can deploy against Large Hedgerows, but with narrow and limited firing lanes ... similar to a small gap in real life
#83: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:06 am
    —
a/t guns should be able to deploy IN hedgerows with regular LOS. as was the german practice in normandy.
#84: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:46 am
    —
stiener wrote (View Post):
a/t guns should be able to deploy IN hedgerows with regular LOS. as was the german practice in normandy.


Most of the Hedges seen in TLD are coded Small Hedgerow and Large Hedgerow ... with a smaller portion being Bocage.
To best represent Normandy in the early stages ... tanks could not go through most hedgerows. Later they found ways for tanks to push through with welded attachments or with explosives.
I think most German ATG's were positioned in tree lines and small hedges, or corners of hedgerows. But am not sure how they would deploy in the types of hedgerows that were the main design of the landscape.

See link below ... part way down:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1343370/posts
#85: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:51 am
    —
David

Just make sure you avoid tank traps.. where a tank deploys surrounded by impassablke terrain and so is trapped in there for the duration of the battle.

A better solutrion, though laborious, would be to recode parts of the Large Hedgerow as Bocage.
#86: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:27 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
David

Just make sure you avoid tank traps.. where a tank deploys surrounded by impassablke terrain and so is trapped in there for the duration of the battle.

A better solutrion, though laborious, would be to recode parts of the Large Hedgerow as Bocage.


Good point ... thanks.
I'm not willing to recode everything so ... I'll change the Large Hedgerow back to its original coding, but keep the Small Hedgerow with Line of Sight blocked.
Then, at least, there won't be any long distance firing through hedgerows.
#87: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:29 am
    —
david
i dont disagree for the most part, but the difference is the germans had time to dig into the hedge rows and dig in the a/t guns. they had time. [ of course not in all cases did they have time ] it was a prepared defense. they dug in tanks also into the hedge rows in prepared defences and fall back positions.
this was the problem the allies faced......each hedge row was a fortress for the germans because they were already dug in.
there are numerous references in books to these prepared hedgerow defences.
Smile
the germans were masters of camoflage as well............
#88: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:54 am
    —
stiener wrote (View Post):
david
i dont disagree for the most part, but the difference is the germans had time to dig into the hedge rows and dig in the a/t guns. they had time. [ of course not in all cases did they have time ] it was a prepared defense. they dug in tanks also into the hedge rows in prepared defences and fall back positions.
this was the problem the allies faced......each hedge row was a fortress for the germans because they were already dug in.
there are numerous references in books to these prepared hedgerow defences.
Smile
the germans were masters of camoflage as well............


Yes, I think you are right
#89: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:55 am
    —
Here is an interim DL link:

http://uploading.com/files/ea9e95b8/TLD_GroundTactics_v1.0_installer.zip/
#90: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Red, Location: Dans un monde merdique PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:03 pm
    —
Hi

Great job, but the DL link don't work
#91: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:43 pm
    —
Attached is a zipped single battle ...
130/Lehr counter attacks the Brit 185/3 at Bretteville.
The German side has Heavy support accompanying.
The Allies have Air support and both have a Mortar barrage.

Unzip the file and put it in:
C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat The Longest Day\Games\Battles
... then access it through the "User Scenarios" tab.

130-Lehr vs 185-3.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  130-Lehr vs 185-3.zip
 Filesize:  314 Bytes
 Downloaded:  330 Time(s)
#92: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:15 pm
    —
Is thiss for youur mod or the Stock game david?
#93: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:36 pm
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
Is thiss for youur mod or the Stock game david?


Hi,
Mod needss to be instaalled first

Last edited by davidssfx on Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total
#94: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:09 am
    —
hey david..........is there a link to your new mod? i couldnt find it in the TLD DL section?
#95: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: wurger,  PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:12 am
    —
davidssfx wrote (View Post):
Here is an interim DL link:

http://uploading.com/files/ea9e95b8/TLD_GroundTactics_v1.0_installer.zip/  


he posted it up alrdy, i m playing it now.
#96: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:03 am
    —
David

the path to the save game is probably wrong then....



It should be something like (will DL and install now to check)

C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat The Longest Day\ROGM\Games\Battles
#97: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:04 am
    —
Link supplied doesn't work for me...
#98: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
David

the path to the save game is probably wrong then....



It should be something like (will DL and install now to check)

C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat The Longest Day\ROGM\Games\Battles


Hi schrecken,
I pulled down the link after thinking about why you asked if the battle was for stock or mod.

Everything worked fine, but as you were probably thinking ... the battle should be in the GroundTactics mod folder.

I took a look at it tonight ... and it seems I removed the Games folder from the mod install program while moving in new files and clearing out old ones.
It is fixed now in ver1.1 ... now that the Games folder has been put back in.

Thanks for noticing this error I made.

For anyone who downloaded and installed ver1.0 ... please remove it and get ver1.1 (sorry for the inconvenience).

Here is the new ver1.1 link:

http://uploading.com/files/m7451542/CCTLDModGroundTacticsv1.1.zip/
#99: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: wurger,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:07 am
    —
do i just delete the ver1 ground tactics folder to uninstall?
#100: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:32 pm
    —
wurger wrote (View Post):
do i just delete the ver1 ground tactics folder to uninstall?


Hi,
To uninstall version 1.0 ... follow the below instructions:

-Start
-Settings
-Control Panel
-Add or Remove Programs
-CC TLD Ground Tactics
-Remove
-Yes

Thanks
David
#101: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
    —
Also, I put the previously mentioned single battle in with the Games folder ... and is available via the User Scenario tab in ver1.1

130/Lehr counter attacks the Brit 185/3 at Bretteville.
The German side has Heavy support accompanying.
The Allies have Air support and both have a Mortar barrage
#102: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:33 pm
    —
@ mooxe
Hi,
I submitted ver1.1 last night with the readme text in the description dialog box. When/if possible ... could you please add this mod to your TLD DL section with this text instead of the readme text? Thanks  Smile

Ground Tactics mod ver1.1
The Ground Tactics mod for TLD is an attempt to better simulate military tactics used by ground forces in Normandy.
The removal of Medium Mortars enables more infantry movement, and better scouting abilities are present with the addition of Recon Teams. Also, MG Teams seem to function more effectively with reduced Team sizes.
Heavy Support has been enabled in varying degrees for each side … all maps Allies, some maps Germans.
BG 901 Pz.Gr./Panzer Lehr has been replaced with 130 Pz./Panzer Lehr, and includes the addition of Tiger I's.
An extensive sound mod is also included, along with many other changes and adjustments to various aspects of the game. Please refer to the readme file (viewable after installation) for a complete list and additional notes.
#103: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:51 am
    —
Nice work...installed the mod and tried a couple of quick battles vs AI.
The data changes seem to make the AI more aggressive (maybe by lowering weapon ranges?)...awesome!
#104: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:44 am
    —
squadleader_id wrote (View Post):
Nice work...installed the mod and tried a couple of quick battles vs AI.
The data changes seem to make the AI more aggressive (maybe by lowering weapon ranges?)...awesome!


Thanks for the comment.
Also, I don't think any work was done regarding weapon ranges (unless Pzt_Kanov did).
Maybe the AI seems more aggressive because they are no longer being suppressed by continuous Medium Mortar fire?
#105: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:59 am
    —
just played the 130 lehr battle against the AI........the AI and the Fire Fly's kicked my butt!!!!!!!!
a FF at very long range with its butt turned to me nailed my tiger in 4 shots in a duel..... i hit the FF in the rear at least 4 times and no damage!!!!!!! my MK 4's faired no better against the FF and some shermans........hope this isnt shades of things to come!? the german heavy arty was nice tho....... Very Happy
#106: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:21 am
    —
stiener wrote (View Post):
just played the 130 lehr battle against the AI........the AI and the Fire Fly's kicked my butt!!!!!!!!
a FF at very long range with its butt turned to me nailed my tiger in 4 shots in a duel..... i hit the FF in the rear at least 4 times and no damage!!!!!!! my MK 4's faired no better against the FF and some shermans........hope this isnt shades of things to come!? the german heavy arty was nice tho....... Very Happy


hahaha ... you may have to bring more fire upon a single target for better success.
I think the Fire Fly did well against most German armor. I will admit the FF's in TLD can take a shot or two from a Tiger, which I'm not sure is accurate ... but then again, CC adds a roll of the dice to the calculation too, so there are chances for inaccurate firing. I noticed some shots exploding beside the tanks on occasion. Maybe the AI cheats a little too ... who knows.
It does make for an interesting battle though ... from either side.
There weren't any changes to armor data for this mod ... so it's based on TLD's data.
Also, the AI picks three FF's for this BG.
#107: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:47 am
    —
from wikipedia

Despite this, the Fireflies increased firepower was much valued by British and Commonwealth tankers, and during many engagements, the Firefly proved its worth, knocking out the feared Tigers and Panthers at long range, as well as less formidable tanks like the Mark IVs and StuGs.

One example of this increased firepower was displayed by Lt. G.K Henry's Firefly during the defense of Norrey-en-Bessin on 9 June against an attack by the 3rd Company of the 12th SS Panzer Regiment of the 12th SS Panzer Division. Determined to capture the town in preparation for a larger offensive to drive the British and Canadians back into the sea, Kurt Meyer ordered an attack by 12 Panthers of the 3rd Company and infantry to attack Norrey-en-Bessin and drive the Canadians out of the town. The attack got underway at 1300 hours with the Panthers racing to the town at full speed only to stop to fire their guns, quickly outrunning their infantry support which was forced to ground by allied artillery fire. Within 1,000 m (1,100 yd) of the town, 9 Shermans of the 1st Hussars opened fire into the advancing Panthers flanks. Lt. Henry's gunner, Trooper A. Chapman, waited until the Panthers "lined up like ducks in a row" and quickly knocked out five German Panthers with just 6 rounds. The attack was repulsed with the loss of 7 of the 12 attacking Panthers, the majority credited to Lt. Henry's single Firefly.[7].

Another similar example occurred on 14 June, during Operation Perch, Sgt. Harris of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards, along with three standard Shermans, set up defensive positions along with the infantry after successfully driving out the Germans in the village of Lingèvres, near Tilly-sur-Seulles. Looking through his binoculars, Sgt. Harris spotted two Panthers advancing from the east. He opened fire at a range of 800 metres (870 yd), knocking out the lead Panther with his first shot, and the second Panther with his second. Relocating to a new position on the other side of the town, he spotted another three Panthers approaching from the west. From his well-concealed flanking position, he and his gunner Trooper Mackillop eliminated all three with just three rounds. Harris and his gunner had knocked out five Panthers with as many rounds, once again demonstrating the potency of the Firefly, especially when firing from a defensive position on advancing enemy tanks.[3]
A Dutch Firefly

In perhaps its most famous action, a group of seven Tiger tanks from the 3rd Company and HQ Company, Schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 101 supported by several Panzer IV tanks and Stug IV assault guns were ambushed by Fireflies from A Squadron, 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, 33rd Armoured Brigade, A Squadron, the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment, 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade and B Squadron, The 144th Regiment Royal Armoured Corps, 33rd Armoured Brigade.[8][1][9][2][3]

Tanks of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry and elements of the 51st (Highland) Division reached the French village of Saint-Aignan-de-Cramesnil on the morning of 8 August 1944 during Operation Totalize.[10][11][12] While B Squadron stayed around the village, A and C Squadrons moved further south into a wood called Delle de la Roque.[13] C Squadron positioned themselves on the east side of the woods and the understrength A Squadron in the southern portion with No. 3 Troop on the western edge of the wood.[10][11][13] From this position, they overlooked a large open section of ground and were able to watch as German tanks advanced up Route nationale 158 from the town of Cintheaux. Under strict orders from the troop commander, they held their fire until the German tanks were well within range. Ekins, the gunner of Sergeant Gordon's Sherman Firefly (called Velikye Luki - A Squadrons tanks were named after towns in the Soviet Union) had yet to fire his gun in action.[13] With the Tiger tanks in range, the order was given to fire, what followed was an almost twelve minute battle that saw Ekins destroying all three Tigers that No. 3 Troop could see (there were actually 7 Tiger tanks in the area heading north along with some other tanks and self propelled guns).[10][11] A short time later, the main German counterattack was made in the direction of C Squadron. A Squadron (less Sgt Gordon who had been wounded and had already bailed out of the Firefly) moved over to support them and in the resulting combat, Ekins destroyed a Panzer IV before his tank was hit and the crew were forced to bail out.[13] One of the Tigers Ekins is credited with knocking out was that of Michael Wittmann, though there is still some controversy over whether Ekins really killed Wittman as Fireflies of the Sherbrooke Fuisilier Regiment were also firing at the Tigers from a closer range of 150 m (160 yd).
#108: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: stiener, Location: Gibsons B.C. canada PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:22 am
    —
YA.....ive read those accounts before. im not disputing the fact the FF and 17pdr were a deadly weapon. the 17PDR was.
if the 17 pdr could get the drop on the tigers and panthers it could win the duel. the problem is that a FF is still a sherman. very under armoured. 1 hit from an 88 or a 75 mm from a MK 4 or a panther and there toast. GJS reflects the allied and german armour and gun penetrations very well....in TLD...im not so sure. a sherman or FF should not live from a hit from an 88 or 75mm from any range. especially in the rear end.
so far my tank vs tank play testing in TLD shows that the allied shermans are favored in the tank duels. im guessing that the penetrations values are wrong? theres definatly something wierd up tho.

the account of wittmans tiger being destroyed from a BR FF has now been proven wrong. wittmans tiger was knocked out by a canadian sherman from the sherbrooke fusilers not a FF. and at fairly close range [ 143 m ] from a shot to the left side rear engine compartment. from the west end of that battle field. it has been proven that the sherbrooke fusilers were not in the area that reports thought they were in and were in a position that they could bring fire on wittman from the flank at close range.

RD Steiner
#109: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: wurger,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:50 pm
    —
yeah, from my exp in the mod, the 88mm isn't effective against the FF at all...
#110: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:22 pm
    —
I agree with you guys, an 88 should take out a Sherman/FF first shot ... no more than two.

Changing armor values is above my pay scale, so will have to leave it as is ... unless it's possible to import data from GJS.
A simple fix would be to just decrease Sherman/FF protection ... but finding the area of data that is associated with this problem would be best (armor, gun penetrations, chance of hit, etc).

Thanks for the feedback
#111: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:20 pm
    —
This mod focus was on the infantry team composition and other small changes and corrections, weapons values and armor were not altered even though I agree they are a bit off. I had a chance to look at WaR data and for example, rifles there have half the penetration values than on TLD. I have not compared cannons and armor yet.

Maybe after a patch that corrects some serious bugs in the game there would be an update to the mod, I am already working on weapon values and have corrected only the small arms for now, lowered their kill rating and their range also made the snipers deadlier like on GJS and hid their muzzle flash. also added squadleader_id's PG uniform conversion from GJS that is already included with the official patch but that the game doesn't use for some reason, new voices for SS pzcrews and PG foot soldiers too taking advantage of the fact that they are using another nation slot, made the soldiers heavier, but not by much so they tire faster and move a bit slower.

But tweaking the heavy weapons and armor would take a considerable amount of time, I'm in no way an expert on that regard though I have a great source that papa_whisky posted on the modding forum here Weapons Performance table WW 2. Anyways taking the mod that far away will take a lot of effort and time.
#112: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:39 am
    —
Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):


Maybe after a patch that corrects some serious bugs in the game there would be an update to the mod, I am already working on weapon values and have corrected only the small arms for now, lowered their kill rating and their range also made the snipers deadlier like on GJS and hid their muzzle flash.


Ahh...I thought this was already implemented when you posted about them...my mistake.

Quote:

...also added squadleader_id's PG uniform conversion from GJS that is already included with the official patch but that the game doesn't use for some reason, new voices for SS pzcrews and PG foot soldiers too taking advantage of the fact that they are using another nation slot, made the soldiers heavier, but not by much so they tire faster and move a bit slower.


Glad that you found those unused uniforms values. Smile
One more thing...I've noticed a very minor error...you've forgotten to include the GSUNIT gadget for the Tiger.

Pls check your PM, davidssfx & Pzt_Kanov...

One more thing...I've noticed a very minor error...you've forgotten to include the GSUNIT gadget for the Tiger.
#113: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:54 am
    —
One more thing...I've noticed a very minor error...you've forgotten to include the GSUNIT gadget for the Tiger.

Thanks ... I thought I'd got them all.
#114: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:51 am
    —
The Tiger was not used in TLD thus there could be issues with its data.

But after taking a quick look at the data the Tiger shouldn't usually have a problem taking out a Sherman/Firefly unless it is using HE shells.
#115: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:00 am
    —
Tejszd wrote (View Post):
The Tiger was not used in TLD thus there could be issues with its data.

But after taking a quick look at the data the Tiger shouldn't usually have a problem taking out a Sherman/Firefly unless it is using HE shells.


Hi Tejszd,
Thanks for posting your findings.
#116: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:51 pm
    —
I'll update with a new version (soon) due to a missed icon ... and a couple of other things.
That should be it till after the next Matrix patch ... or when ever (which ever comes first, lol).
Also, a new main screen ...
#117: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:38 pm
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Ground Tactics ver1.2

http://uploading.com/files/6919344c/CCTLDModGroundTacticsv1.2.zip/
#118: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:48 pm
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Great main screen! I like it very much. Also, why is the dl not available here? no word from mooxe?
#119: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:54 pm
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And regarding FF's and Sherman against German Tiger and Pz IV ... after more testing it seems you can knock out a Sherman with a single Tiger round.
TLD data may be OK after all. I think some of the advantage for FF/Sherman is not the data, but how the AI deploys them. Either from bdhind a hedge or hull down, etc. If you walk into their preferred deployment ... then it will take more shots to take 'em out. But if you drawn them out to neutral type settings ... things seem to even out.
Just a thought anyway.
Some roll of the dice CC calculations end up making things seem inaccurate at times ... but for the most part, I think it's OK.
#120: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:00 pm
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Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
Great main screen! I like it very much. Also, why is the dl not available here? no word from mooxe?


I'm not sure where mooxe is ... haven't seen him around here lately. Maybe he's busy.
Just as well the GT mod didn't get put in the DL section right away anyway ... since I've made mistakes that needed to be corrected.Hopefully it's OK now.

I submitted 1.2 to mooxe ...
I hope all is well with him
#121: Re: Realism On Ground (ROG) mod Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:16 am
    —
Pzt_Kanov spotted an error I made in the Stratmap text file ... corrected now.

New version is 1.3

http://uploading.com/files/6fb84881/CCTLDModGroundTacticsv1.3.zip/
Close Combat Series -> Close Combat The Longest Day


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