Players Debate - Modding Re-releases
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#81: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Dundradal,  PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:17 am
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vonB wrote (View Post):
 At the end of the day. Mod whatever you want to Mod.  It's up to you.  However, I would have thought that if you want to give the best opportunity to new people joining the Community, you would want to make Mods for the newer releases?


I agree. Even converting some of the existing CC5 mods for TLD could potentially be really interesting. I'm thinking the Battle of Berlin mod...Seelow Heights...at night...then the spotlights pop on on each side. Is that possible with the TLD engine? I know night battles are but does it allow for light sources like that? Even if it doesn't, being able fight that engagement at night would certainly be interesting.

How difficult is the conversion process from CC5 to WAR or TLD?
#82: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Stwa,  PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:17 am
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CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):
Stwa wrote (View Post):

Regarding the skill required to do a job, its hard to imagine putting 1000 hours into anything. I wasn't there, so I wont comment futher, only to say that if these hours represented work and not simply duration, some eyebrows must have been raised.


I take it you're not a career man yet.  It's not quite as simple when you can't cut and paste copyrighted pictures into the gui and gadgets.


Since you brought it up, I will expalain. I have been in software development all my adult life and various management positions along the way.

If there is one thing I have learned, you can give the same task to several people and they will deliver on wildy different time frames. Some guys want 60 days to complete a routine task, while others just want 6 days.

I hired a lawyer once who wanted 400 bucks per hour, but could complete the work without any redo's ten times faster than the 200 bucks per hour lawyers. Same way with software contractors, artists, or otherwise.

So, which category do you fall into. Like I said before, I wasn't there, so I wont comment.
#83: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:38 pm
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$3 million just to get a new computer game?
You got to be kidding me.... right?

No granted I have no idea what anyone in the game industry makes but THAT just sounds incredibly stupid to me.

So how much did it cost to make God of War 3?
Billions?
#84: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Dundradal,  PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:57 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
$3 million just to get a new computer game?
You got to be kidding me.... right?

No granted I have no idea what anyone in the game industry makes but THAT just sounds incredibly stupid to me.

So how much did it cost to make God of War 3?
Billions?


He's not kidding. $3 million may have been a lot when CC first came out in the late 1990s. (Most expensive game of that period was Wing Commander 4 in 1996 with a budget of $10 million, but soon after game budgets skyrocketed...)

Most games today cost tens of millions of dollars to produce.

God of War 3 cost $44 million dollars to produce.

Halo 3 cost $30 million

So no it's not stupid or jesting. He was dead serious.
#85: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:32 pm
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I wasn't implying he was stupid,just the amount.
What you just posted is just plain sickening
You can more than bet we will never see a new CC if money is being raised by the re-releases.
#86: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Dundradal,  PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:03 pm
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I hear you. I was just trying to be clear that games are not cheap to produce. However, that's not to say that a small group of dedicated individuals cannot produce a great game without millions of dollars. It happened all the time in the 1990s.

The re-releases would need better advertisement. Hell, I've been going to matrix games for several years and had never noticed the re-releases until a few months ago! I'm sure there is a good-sized audience out there for the games. They just need to know they exist.

I'm going to the Society of Military History conference next week and I'll ask some people there what they think about CC. Maybe I'll create a few new fans in the process...and probably come home broke. The book tables there are the devil! You just can't say no.....  Laughing

Last edited by Dundradal on Sun May 16, 2010 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
#87: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:05 pm
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How much did it cost to make Achtüng Panzer: Kharkov? how much has it make? I hear that they are a very small group of programmers and I've been reading only very positive comments about the game and expansions are already at the turn of the corner, I think in Russia it was already out together with the expansions they are just converting them to english or something.

The game is CHEAP as hell for what it delivers(Operational and tactical playability, great AI, BIG maps, company level battles, 3D fully destructible environment where damages stays on for the whole OP etc), 2 weeks ago was at 10$ on gamersgate, I couldn't buy it from there because of some error on the site and I had to get it from other place at, guess what, a staggering 17$!

Still haven't played it though because my machine can't run it at the moment lol, but whatever.
#88: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Dundradal,  PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:44 pm
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I'd love to help convert old mods to the re-releases. I like to think I can do most things (although anything involving math I try to stay away from) so I'd be willing to man-hours if I was told what to do to help those with more skills complete the task.
#89: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:21 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):
Therion, you were never this angry as a tester fro CCMT

I had less experience with other RTW games back then and I didn't know that Matrix Games is going to lie to sell it and won't fix the game for 2 years.
Not to mention that I didn't know about stuff like horrible weapons data.

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
$3 million just to get a new computer game?
You got to be kidding me.... right?

No granted I have no idea what anyone in the game industry makes but THAT just sounds incredibly stupid to me.

So how much did it cost to make God of War 3?
Billions?


He's not kidding. $3 million may have been a lot when CC first came out in the late 1990s. (Most expensive game of that period was Wing Commander 4 in 1996 with a budget of $10 million, but soon after game budgets skyrocketed...)

Most games today cost tens of millions of dollars to produce.

God of War 3 cost $44 million dollars to produce.

Halo 3 cost $30 million

So no it's not stupid or jesting. He was dead serious.

They are next-gen bullshit cinematic games, though. What we need is a game with graphics of CC, sound of CC, mechanics better than in CC and AI better than in CC.

The first two are are provided for free by modders, the latter two are often found in one-man-show games.
For example:

Sean O'Connor's Firefight has better AI and SAI than CC, for example - it even uses bounding overwatch inside of squads. It also has better mechanics in some areas.
It has more generic weapons, less graphical gadgets like weapon images and less moddability, though - still these are not things that are influenced by the game being made by a single person.

Freeware Armored Brigade has better mechanics and better visualisations - no tracers/muzzle flashes until source of fire is spotted by units, more realistic artillery/air support, heigh map, los tool, more order types than CC, etc. etc. etc.

Let's face it. The real reason why new and improved CC isn't produced aren't financial reasons, because all the objectives for new and improved CC can be fulfilled on low budget.
The real reason is that the lack of talent.
Such project can succeed at a very low budget if it would be led by a programist-designer, not by a group of modders.

Personally, I think it would be better to bug the Firefight guy about implementing more features from CC and more moddability.

Dundradal wrote (View Post):
The re-releases would need better advertisement. Hell, I've been going to matrix games for several years and had never noticed the re-releases until a few months ago! I'm sure there is a good-sized audience out there for the games. They just need to know they exist.

Just remember to tell them about the faulty AI and faulty pathfinding.
#90: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:03 am
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Dundradal,

See this thread for my notes on working to move the Meuse mod to TLD:

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=50428#50428
#91: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: CSO_Sbufkle, Location: Canada PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:20 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):
Therion wrote (View Post):

Nah. The main problem is that the Matrix decided that buying the rights to CC was a big enough cost and decided that they'll release modded games with small engine tweaks for full prices of new games.


Get your facts straight.  Matrix didn't buy the rights.  Simtek made a rights agreement with Destineer.  Simtek would work on the re-releases, but Destineer gets the largest cut of the pie from the 3, or more, hands going into the pie as the rights holder.  Simtek goes the way of the Dodo, and Strategy3Tactics evolves from the ashes in an effort to complete the Simtek contract with Destineer...all the while hoping that their piece of the pie...the smallest of all the hands in the pie...will be enough to produce a brand new game on a brand new engine once out from underneath the licensing rights.

Therion, you were never this angry as a tester fro CCMT


Linebacker is right.

In order to make new versions of CC, there was a contactual obligation to releases and while all the work would be done by Simtek/S3T they got only a fraction of money that would be raised. The other players got the big chunks.. that pie incidentally wasnt a big one for so many to share.

Also note once contractual obligation was done, there was (maybe its changed now) NO guarantee Simtek/S3T would even get to work on anything new, althought it wouldnt make sence they didnt at least have a say. They were operating (Again, maybe has changed) on the hope theyd earn the rights to develop new stuff.
#92: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: CSO_Sbufkle, Location: Canada PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:34 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):
Let's face it. The real reason why new and improved CC isn't produced aren't financial reasons, because all the objectives for new and improved CC can be fulfilled on low budget.
The real reason is that the lack of talent.
Such project can succeed at a very low budget if it would be led by a programist-designer, not by a group of modders.


Okay.. lets wait here.

Beebs (VonB) is right about the amount of money it takes to develop games, and what people most seem to want IS A NEW CC. This means changing the core engine and needs a real programmer. The numbers Beebs gave are rgith, youd need at LEAST one programmer if not more. As co founder of Simtek, he was first hand involved with how games industry works that most of us dotn know on anyhting but say a tertiary level at best.

Modders cant make new CC engine, thats a fact. And modders in CC have IMHO made the best of the engines they have had to get the most out of the game. We cant rag on them.

The only way your idea of a Programist-designer developing a new CC engine would be if he largely did it for the love of the game not to make or even recoup the money the time needed would dictate as far as financial compensation. that means a team of guys doing it for nothing, or next to nothing.

As far as spending 1000 hours on making a mod.. no question I accept this number without question...not all mods maybe, but soem for sure. I mean many maps alone can take 25 hours if not many more.

As far as knocking game slike Halo and Gears of War, more pople play those than ever played CC at any point in time, so supply and demand dictates where the money is spend in the goal of making more. If you had a poll of CC vs Halo 3, what do you like better? CC would probably take in single diget numbers of support.. I love CC.. but you cant deny is 'market appeal' in 2010.

Matrix takes niche games, not as high profile and does what they can on a limited budget (Not a knock, just a fact) this includes buying old titles and keeping them alive in what probably is the only way they will be since a mega million producer would kind of be committing financial suicide if they spend a few million trying to make a new CC that would even pay for its own development.
#93: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:29 pm
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CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
The only way your idea of a Programist-designer developing a new CC engine would be if he largely did it for the love of the game not to make or even recoup the money the time needed would dictate as far as financial compensation. that means a team of guys doing it for nothing, or next to nothing.

Probably anyone who works on tactical wargames does it for the love of the game anyway, as it means resigning from much more lucrative jobs.
As for the financial compensation - according to his CV, the guy that made Firefight lives from making/selling games and does it for the most of his life. He did develop several other games, though and good AI seems to be one of the main features of all of them.

Since there are modders who are willing to put thousands of hours into modding, it's not an unrealistic expectation anyway - hell, there are even open source games after all. If you have tons of creative people willing to put thousands hours of their work into games, you'll surely going to see lots of new indie developers, right?
Wrong!

What went wrong is that people with passion for video games are becoming modders and are very busy modding other people's games instead of going to an university or even buying a few good books and making their own games.
Basically - learning how to mod provides much faster gratification than learning how to code and writing ones own game.

And nowadays even modders are declining a lot. For example, Airborne Assault fans are begging developers to give them editing tools for modifying ToEs and vehicles and weapons.
10 years ago modders would simply open a hex editor and would start analysing the data file themselves. Which is exactly what I have started to do.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
As far as knocking game slike Halo and Gears of War, more pople play those than ever played CC at any point in time, so supply and demand dictates where the money is spend in the goal of making more. If you had a poll of CC vs Halo 3, what do you like better? CC would probably take in single diget numbers of support.. I love CC.. but you cant deny is 'market appeal' in 2010.

Which is why these games and reality of their production are irrelevant. The truth is that new wargames are being made and they often come out in a much more finished state than any CC game, despite being sold for the same or lower price.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
Matrix takes niche games, not as high profile and does what they can on a limited budget (Not a knock, just a fact) this includes buying old titles and keeping them alive in what probably is the only way they will be since a mega million producer would kind of be committing financial suicide if they spend a few million trying to make a new CC that would even pay for its own development.

The problem with Matrix Games is that the game it sells vary in quality from genius to utter crap and often a bugged, faulty game whose major faults will never be fixed is sold for the same price and is as much hyped as a genial game.
#94: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Dundradal,  PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:15 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):

And nowadays even modders are declining a lot. For example, Airborne Assault fans are begging developers to give them editing tools for modifying ToEs and vehicles and weapons.
10 years ago modders would simply open a hex editor and would start analysing the data file themselves. Which is exactly what I have started to do.



There is a difference in the average computer user of 2000 and 2010. Today's modders are much like Therion describes, they want the tools, but not the knowledge of how to make the tools.

I worked on one of the few WC mods to come to completion. It took us 10 years (roughly 5-9 team members at any time) from start to finish to complete the project! We had no modding tools, no developer assistance, etc. However, we did have a group of individuals who worked in the game field as well as several who are programming wizards (which is what really allowed us to even go forward at all).

In the past, when programming skills were needed...people learned to program....today it's not the case.
#95: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: CSO_Sbufkle, Location: Canada PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:20 pm
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First of all.. importqant to say you have some very valid points...

Therion wrote (View Post):

Probably anyone who works on tactical wargames does it for the love of the game anyway, as it means resigning from much more lucrative jobs.
As for the financial compensation - according to his CV, the guy that made Firefight lives from making/selling games and does it for the most of his life. He did develop several other games, though and good AI seems to be one of the main features of all of them.

Since there are modders who are willing to put thousands of hours into modding, it's not an unrealistic expectation anyway - hell, there are even open source games after all. If you have tons of creative people willing to put thousands hours of their work into games, you'll surely going to see lots of new indie developers, right?
Wrong!

What went wrong is that people with passion for video games are becoming modders and are very busy modding other people's games instead of going to an university or even buying a few good books and making their own games.
Basically - learning how to mod provides much faster gratification than learning how to code and writing ones own game.


I remember when Sulla asked me to add soem textures ect and fart around with Firefight.... was an interesting little game.. but kinda Mickey Mouse. If the guy isw trying to make a lviing out of it.. thats fine, but its kind of like the starving artist.. they create soemthign they love, and odnt care if they sleep under a bridge. (Which is tough if you mod games and have t0o drag your pc from bridge to bridge.

As far as modding, and I am only speakign for myself.. I mod things becuase I like the state of a game and want to enhance it. Also if were talking technical aspects, if I am modding I add teams, sounds and grapics, thats dynamically different than crunching codes. I enjoy tweaking paramaters in games, I dotn enjoy spending hours and hours setting those parameters.

Think of why so many mods died over the years, people liked doing data, didnt like doing maps (mostly the time to learn to do them)

Another analogy, the guy whos designed the engine for a Jaguar, likely didnt design the interior decor... yet you need both.

I cant stress as well if you do spend 1000 hours making a new engine, youd either be rich or more likely a fool to release it for free instead of cashing in. You cant feed your kids on accolades in a forum becuase you gave a game engine away!


Therion wrote (View Post):
Which is why these games and reality of their production are irrelevant. The truth is that new wargames are being made and they often come out in a much more finished state than any CC game, despite being sold for the same or lower price.


You are pretty well bang on. The reality is  CC is, as much as I love it.. or loved it.. an old game. Designed when gaming was far different due to limitations on computers/technology. Yes it could be improved upon... but supply/demand. People still play turn based war table top games, but the demand isnt near what it used to be. (Off the top of my head)

Therion wrote (View Post):
The problem with Matrix Games is that the game it sells vary in quality from genius to utter crap and often a bugged, faulty game whose major faults will never be fixed is sold for the same price and is as much hyped as a genial game.


Matrix again I said fills what I think is a niche corner of gamign market. Like many companies thier overall quality varies game to game.. one will be no matter what, 'the worst' they offer.. thats just a fact. the fact is they are not a monitary giant, and do serve thisi niche market. And for what its worth, if you enjoy any of the rereleases, then thank them for helping back that. If you dont like them, dont be angry at Matrix, they made a business decision on these rerleases. They havent killed any new versions of CC from ever coming out, yet I dont know or think they have the ability to back such if they the green light to do so.

I have brought it up before, but it never did get answered, if we knew how many copies of each rerlelease sold, then youd probably understand why a new version isnt out there or being thrown around as a hot item. Hype it veyr improtant part of gamign industry.
#96: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: CSO_Sbufkle, Location: Canada PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:23 pm
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Dundradal wrote (View Post):
Therion wrote (View Post):

And nowadays even modders are declining a lot. For example, Airborne Assault fans are begging developers to give them editing tools for modifying ToEs and vehicles and weapons.
10 years ago modders would simply open a hex editor and would start analysing the data file themselves. Which is exactly what I have started to do.



There is a difference in the average computer user of 2000 and 2010. Today's modders are much like Therion describes, they want the tools, but not the knowledge of how to make the tools.

I worked on one of the few WC mods to come to completion. It took us 10 years (roughly 5-9 team members at any time) from start to finish to complete the project! We had no modding tools, no developer assistance, etc. However, we did have a group of individuals who worked in the game field as well as several who are programming wizards (which is what really allowed us to even go forward at all).

In the past, when programming skills were needed...people learned to program....today it's not the case.


Dude! We have to play Halo 3 online... there is 'only' about 80,000 people on a weeknight playing due to Reach beta... if 8000 people were playign CC on one night... well its never happened!
#97: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:34 pm
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CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
I remember when Sulla asked me to add soem textures ect and fart around with Firefight.... was an interesting little game.. but kinda Mickey Mouse.

Well, I have discovered it many years after Close Combat and I prefer it because he has done many things right from the start.
For example he made sure that the AI and SAI uses area fire and artillery against sources of fire unlike the CC AI and SAI that targets only the units that it sees directly.
It doesn't matter if the programmers are greatly paid by Microsoft if they don't bother to integrate the mechanics of gameplay with the AI - and for example make the muzzle flashes and tracers visible for the player but invisible for the AI.

I like it despite poor moddability and some gamey stuff like poor accuracy of tank/AT guns, generic small arms and lack of important details like trenches, minefields, etc. because it actually works as a game and has some other interesting mechanics and the AI is good enough to keep me interested in playing. Usually I win, but at least I feel that I had to earn the victory.

Another thing that I like is the campaign that doesn't jump between command levels and the player is basically just a guy that got caught in the war and tries to survive until the end. Not some super general/god/whatever, but a person that is present on the battlefield and can actually get killed.

I started another campaign yesterday, this time with a Marine. I have fought 5 battles. I won 3 of them and lost 2 of them. I actually had to withdraw to stay alive after I lost all my AT guns and most of my soldiers.
The missions aren't balanced and difficulty seems to be random, so it's possible to fight with two platoons against one platoon in one mission and with a platoon against a company in another.

I like that I can actually play it and enjoy it straight "out of the box". He keeps upgrading it, both graphics and mechanics. There was another upgrade a few weeks ago.
I wouldn't call the game "small". It has over 10 nationalities.

Also, he's a true gentleman.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
If the guy isw trying to make a lviing out of it.. thats fine, but its kind of like the starving artist.. they create soemthign they love, and odnt care if they sleep under a bridge. (Which is tough if you mod games and have t0o drag your pc from bridge to bridge.

Well, he doesn't exactly look like a starving artist. I checked out the forums and he seems to have a regular job. Which is kinda weird, I thought that people would be more likely to mention their regular jobs in a CV XD .
Still it's probably much more creative and profitable way of using love for games than spending time on modifying other people's games.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
As far as modding, and I am only speakign for myself.. I mod things becuase I like the state of a game and want to enhance it. Also if were talking technical aspects, if I am modding I add teams, sounds and grapics, thats dynamically different than crunching codes. I enjoy tweaking paramaters in games, I dotn enjoy spending hours and hours setting those parameters.

I mod mainly because I don't like the state of a game and want to make it more playable for myself.
I have never created my own game mainly because I never had motivation to learn how to code and I usually have too much distracting things to do to sit down and do serious stuff. Hey, I have trouble even with focusing on school stuff.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
You are pretty well bang on. The reality is  CC is, as much as I love it.. or loved it.. an old game. Designed when gaming was far different due to limitations on computers/technology. Yes it could be improved upon... but supply/demand.

The main problem wasn't the age and the computer technology - the main technological limitation was on graphics, map sizes, etc. The main problem is that the developers have fucked stuff (namely the AI and pathfinding) up really badly from the start. Senior Drill said that it's literally impossible to make really good vehicle pathing in CC due to how CC engine works.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
People still play turn based war table top games, but the demand isnt near what it used to be. (Off the top of my head)

On the other hand, there are three major publishers and several smaller ones that sell hardcore computer wargames. Neither supply nor demand is really low.
There are games like Airborne Assault getting developed and sell enough to warrant several sequels.
People who started their careers in 80s are still developing games and their games are getting better and better.

Computer wargaming market is in completely different condition than for example hardcore cRPG market, which went to hell in 2000s because no one outside the mainstream has means to make games of such quality as Fallout 1 while the mainstream prefers shooter hybrids.

CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):
Hype it veyr improtant part of gamign industry.

Having a product that lives up to the hype is even more important. Especially when one is a niche publisher.
Also, I gets kinda perverse when a company uses unfair competition against itself.
#98: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: US_Brake, Location: USA PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:35 pm
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A couple new sections in CCS could help promote mod and map making. Put up Bios and information about each of the Mod and Map makers in the community and list their work. Like the political officer said in Enemy at the Gates to Kruschev "What we need are heroes."
#99: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:41 pm
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I started informatics studies this year. I think that waiting for a miracle is pretty pointless. Guys, if you really want to do something for Close Combat, stop modding and get some education and prepare for a lot of hard work.
#100: Re: Players Debate - Modding Re-releases Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:44 pm
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FAIL!
Close Combat Series -> The Mess


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