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#1: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:09 pm
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Just floating some thoughts... take a deep breath beofer you start reading....

While we all I am sure have opinions on how CC could or should move forwards, one of the Topics which has reasonable scope for Community development would be the Strategic perspective. Yes, CCIV and V have a Strategic Layer, but I do not find it very compelling. To me, a compelling Layer would be able to provide a satisfying Game in it's own right, even without any Tactical Battle Interface.

The current presentations are Turn Based. Nothing woring with that. For a variety of reasons this is likley to be the direction taken. For myself, I am more excited by a prospect of a Real Time Strategic Environment, but that has some very awkward issues to address, and I would have to admit the potential problems with such an approach. For another debate maybe.

However, Real Time or Turn Based, there is one issue that I see as a major challange in integrating the current CC Tactical Layer into any kind of seamless Strategic approach, and that is the limitations of the CC Map. Having finite borders and a time intensive (manual) development process, this presents a major challange. Let me say that I do not consider this to be a show stopper as such, and that it does not in itself prevent a compelling integration with a Strategic Layer. However, if we are to try to produce a continuous and seamless Strategic area on which to play out an Operation or Campaign, we are limited to set and finite limits with any single Map.

If we take this forwards logically, we find ourselves presented with an awesome prospect. perhaps I can illustrate like this: let us say we have a Strategic area 100kmx100km. To make this a seamless area, we would have to have a CC Map 100kmx100km. I suspect this is not even possible due to PC resource limitations, and we could look at it as 10,000 1kmx1km Maps. I know Shane can churn our Maps at a prodigeous rate, but I think the prospect of producing 10,000 Maps would be just a bit too daunting... Wink

So what we tend to end up with in practice is a large Strategic area, which is translated into individual Battles on specific Maps, where the Map edges do not connect with each other. Nothing 'wrong' with that either, but it is hardly seamless.

There has been some effort put into looking at how CC Maps could be produced using other techniques,or using other resources such as visual imagery (aerial photographs/Satellite images/etc), and digital elevation data. These sources are available. From this we *could* generate a visual Battle Map with Elevations, but that is far from sufficient to produce a working CC Map. For it to work, it needs to be coded, and that is not something that I can see (can anyone else) being done in any way other than manually. If it could, we might be a lot further on towards the prospect of 'generating' a CC Map, which is the only way I can see of producing seamless integrated CC Maps at both the Strategic and Tactical Levels.

It is arguable that a seamless approach is not possible or practicable. If a battle should flow off the edge of a Map, how to you handle that? It could only work if the Map can automatically extend it's borders in real time to accomodate such movement, and that is just not possible with the current CC system. It is therefore arguable whether there is any prospect of such an approach using CC as we currently have it, as it would mean a significant change to the Core, and for a variety of reasons, I cannot see that happening.

So have I just argued myself out of a Seamless Strategic Scenario? Very possibly, but I am hoping that there are good prospects for Strategic Game Play which can stand up in it's own right, and still be integrated with the CC Tactical Game. It is this issue that I am inviting comments, or even suggestions on how this can be achieved, either as a theory, or practically.

I would draw your attention to MMCCIII. This is a Strategic Layer developed independantly of CC, and yet integrates CC into the Game Play. While I do like MMCCIII, it does have severe limitations (but then so do CCIV and V in my opinion), but it does go to show that such things *can* be done.

If there was such an intitiative to produce a Strategic Game that both stands up on it's own AND integrates with CC, then I would try and find time to help progress it. But one thing at a time. I am just curious to hear what others have to say about it, and if anyone is interested in doing anything about it.

#2: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: JamesL,

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:09 pm
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Good evening VonB - Take a look at - achtung panzer: kharkov 1943: http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-APK1943/achtung-panzer-kharkov-1943
(you can get a demo there)

Its simler to CC but in 3D. Battles are played out on 9km sq battlefields taken directly from the operational map - just imagine putting CC's squad AI & psycological modle into this & I think you may start to get somthing like the concept you have written about.

#3: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:15 pm
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I like the idea of playing a strategic implementation of the CC tactical battle as a Strategic overlay.

At the strat level your "teams" are the BG's", when they come into contact with another BG a tactical level battle ensues.

#4: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:45 pm
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Yes Schreck. I am putting up some sets of doodles along those lines on my Web Site shortly, and inviting comments. The biggest drawback is of course the crrent CC Core System, but I believe there is sill much scope for integrating the CC tactical layer with a Strategic Layer using the Saved game File as it can be written independantly and then picked up by CC (just as MMCCIII does).

JamesL, thanks for the tip. I will certainly take a look at tit.

#5: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:20 pm
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JamesL wrote (View Post):

Good evening VonB - Take a look at - achtung panzer: kharkov 1943: http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-APK1943/achtung-panzer-kharkov-1943
(you can get a demo there)

That game looks pretty sick!, definitely worth to check it out. Too bad I have a 5 yo computer and I think it won't run here.

#6: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: southern_land,

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:43 pm
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vonB wrote (View Post):

Yes Schreck. I am putting up some sets of doodles along those lines on my Web Site shortly, and inviting comments. The biggest drawback is of course the crrent CC Core System, but I believe there is sill much scope for integrating the CC tactical layer with a Strategic Layer using the Saved game File as it can be written independantly and then picked up by CC (just as MMCCIII does).

JamesL, thanks for the tip. I will certainly take a look at tit.

i wonder what ever happened to curtain 67? He was making the mmccIII style strat layer to go with cc3, last thing I heard he was on version 2

#7: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:45 pm
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I have been out of action for some time so not up on developments. It rings a bell though...

#8: A small virtual walk through... Author: vonB,

Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:08 pm
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To put some flesh on the bones...

Preparing for the Operation. The Campaign map is far right (long thin map), with 4 Operational areas. The selected Operation is shown in the middle map, and the Combat arena on the left where the action takes place.

Paratroop drops are committed:

The resulting deployment resulting from the drops. Polish and British Paras in this case:

Paras are mobilised and manouvre to engage or secure objectives:

Units engage. The tinted boxes specify the Battle areas where a Tactical Battle can be fought (i.e. in CC), or the combat can be resolved at the Strategic Layer. User choice. Either/or or both.

This illustrates where the current limitations of the CC Maps make it difficult to integrate seamlessly with this kind of Strategic level. The Operation is carried out on a fluid area (i.e. not segmented into boxes/hexes/whatever) just as in a CC Battle Map. Therefore, an engageent can happen at any time at any place, and the area of tactical engagement will vary. To make this work ideally, the Battle Map would have to be drawn as a result of what happens on the Operational/Campaign Map, and that is clearly not possible at the moment Sad

I have a more extensive walk through based on the Operation Beachhead mock up which gives a better idea of how it might be possible to create a compelling game carried out at the strategic level only, but always with the option to fight any tactical battle if chosen. More of that anon.

#9: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: CSO_Talorgan,

Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:26 pm
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vonB wrote (View Post):

The biggest drawback is of course the current CC Core System

Surely the biggest drawback is our own lack of coding skills.

vonB wrote (View Post):

I believe there is sill much scope for integrating the CC tactical layer with a Strategic Layer using the Saved game File as it can be written independantly and then picked up by CC (just as MMCCIII does).

I tend to agree.

Does anybody know if it is possible to exchange data between the saved game files of Close Combat and that of Advanced Tactics? Advanced Tactics is quite flexible and can be "brought down" to a scale very like the CC IV and V strat layers. A data exchange between the two games would solve a lot of problems.

#10: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:45 pm
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Quote:

Surely the biggest drawback is our own lack of coding skills

Fair point, but then you would need access to the Source Code and Development files, and my C++ skills are woefully inadequate. One thing that became quite clear when I was working on CoI as a result of talking with the programmer, was that trying to re-engineer the existing system would not be productive in terms of trying to make it go where we want it to go. It would need a substantial re-write. Much of the Core logic could be used such as the Psychological Model, but would still need substantial adaptation to fit into a new Core.

Quote:

Does anybody know if it is possible to exchange data between the saved game files of Close Combat and that of Advanced Tactics?

At the moment I am working on a 'handler' for the CC3/CoI Saved Game File. I have no idea what Advanced Tactics is. I would be happy to hear from anyone who has an interest and some skills in this or any other 'Strategic' initiative, and see what prospects there might be? If so, please PM me.

#11: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:59 pm
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FOr anyone that might be interested, I have published a small 'CC Fantasy' on my Web Site, based on 'Operation Beach Head' (a virtual scenario). You can find it here:

http://www.closecombat.ie/graphics/OpBeachHead/obh.htm

It still begs many questions and in my own vision, all views are zoomable. The basis is the standardised Coordinate System, which basically means that regardless of the perspective (Tactical or Strategic), everything relates to the same coordinates. So for example, on the Operation Map, this could be zoomed in or out on demand, all the way from individual units to as far as the system will go. The whole planet? Well, as much as is sensible anyway Wink

Until such time as we have dynamic Map generation, we will just have to work with what we have got. C'est la vie...

#12: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: pagskier,

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:40 am
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that looks great!
I wish more stuff looks like this!
but then it would be micro-battle

#13: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: MF_Church,

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:35 pm
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Wonderful !

Love the Look and Gives a great Feel for the Game / Ops. !

Tks!

#14: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:39 pm
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Quote:

but then it would be micro-battle

The 'boxes' in the visualisations denote where engagements take place. Ideally, these would be fought on a battle Map just as we do with CC now. Alternatively, it could be resolved at the Strategic level. What makes it impossible to do this now is the way Maps have to be made. There could be a compromise in which the Strategic play would be 'forced' into predefined areas where Maps have already been prepared, but to me that would compromise the potential fluidity of the game play. On the other hand, it is something I am looking at (the compromise that is...).

In such a short Operation, it would be more appealing to fight the battles on the tactical Map, but for large Campagins covering thousands of square kilometres, it could be nice to have the options to have Strategic resolution as well. I like choice! Very Happy

#15: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 6:13 am
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Like Rome: Total War for example. The map seems all one single entity and I don't know if they are just a bunch of tiny maps or if the game draws every tactical map according to location and geographic marks because for example most bridge battles look the same, but then when you build a watchtower in the strategic map and you have a battle near it, you can see such edification while fighting the battle in real time. Battles can be fought in a 3D tactical map or be auto-resolved in the strategic map, Movement is by turn but battles are real time.

Something similar would be nice.

#16: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:03 am
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Yes, I agree. Rome Total War is a good example of a Strategic Layer that provides quite compelling gameplay in it's own right, with the ability to slug it out face to face on the battlefield if you want. The choice is yours. I don't know whether I would like to see something identical but it does illustrate the possible...

#17: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:54 am
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what about this one as a strat layer

http://www.wargamer.com/news/6368/New-Command-Ops:-Battles-From-The-Bulge-Video-AAR

#18: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:37 am
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That is interesting, and definitely along the lines I envisage. I may even suppress my better nature and get it to see what it's like Wink

#19: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:22 am
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yep, I definitely see posssibilities with this as a strat laeyer over CC tactical battles.

Personally I can't see the point of playing BFTB as it is... but as an overlay to CC battles... well just maybe.

#20: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:47 am
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Quote:

I may even suppress my better nature and get it to see what it's like

But then again I might not... Wink

No question the compulsion/addiction with CC is the visceral real time game play of the battle, and no Strategic Layer will ever replace that IMO. But, I have been longing to see a good compelling Strat Layer to complement the Tactical. Programmatically, BFTB is a no brainer compared with the challange of a tactical battle.

Map development seems to me to be the main obstacle to making real progress towards this, particularly at the Community level. Apiotrow did a wonderful job with MMCC3, which just demonstrates the sort of thing that can be done, and also gives me encouragement to pursue such an initiative, but at the end of the day, Map Making is going to be the kicker.

I would love some input from Mafi and Southern Land, and anyone else with in depth knowledge and skills. I can't see any shortcuts to the issue of Coding, but maybe better heads than mine can. I think there are fair prospects for rendering Maps and Elevations from external digital data, even if it needs post processing, but it's still got to be coded for CC at the end of the day. I am not a Map Maker so I can't speak definitively. I might have to get some experience doing it so that I have a better understanding in detail, but I think I understand the challanges well enough to have a realistic handle on the issues.

#21: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: CSO_Talorgan,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:07 pm
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vonB wrote (View Post):

let us say we have a Strategic area 100kmx100km. To make this a seamless area, we would have to have a CC Map 100kmx100km. I suspect this is not even possible due to PC resource limitations, and we could look at it as 10,000 1kmx1km Maps. I know Shane can churn our Maps at a prodigeous rate, but I think the prospect of producing 10,000 Maps would be just a bit too daunting...

Remember that the area covered by MMCC III is limited not by MMCC III but by the power of your computer. Computers nowadays are very powerful.

southern_land wrote (View Post):

wonder what ever happened to curtain 67? He was making the mmccIII style strat layer to go with cc3, last thing I heard he was on version 2

http://freespace.virgin.net/sam.deeside/strategiccc.htm

vonB wrote (View Post):

you would need access to the Source Code and Development files, and my C++ skills are woefully inadequate

I was thinking more in terms of an enhanced MMCC III rather than hacking the game itself.

vonB wrote (View Post):

I have no idea what Advanced Tactics is

It's an operational level game, also from the Matrix stable which has the advantage of being highly moddable.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/345/details/Advanced.Tactics:.World.War.II

I fantasise about having the coding skills to amputate Close Combat's strat layer and bolt the remainder onto the underside of Advanced Tactics thereby achieving the object of this thread.

:)

It's just an example though. The fora are littered with similar suggestions involving other operational games, and at the end of the day if someone could figure out how to exchange data between games it would matter not a jot which one was used.

vonB wrote (View Post):

I have published a small 'CC Fantasy' on my Web Site

We dream the same dream, and I am sure that many others around here do too.

#22: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:55 pm
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Quote:

It's just an example though. The fora are littered with similar suggestions involving other operational games, and at the end of the day if someone could figure out how to exchange data between games it would matter not a jot which one was used.

I am in the process of trying to produce a Saved Game File Handler specifically for this kind of purpose. Perhaps build a DLL that can be accessed by others for the purpose. You can 'pick' at bits of it (using a Hex Editor for example), but the real power would come from a comprehensive and complete File Handler. It's not an easy job as there are a lot of 'unkown' Bytes (well somebody from the original CC dev Team must have known), and being able to Read and Write a complete File is the ideal as it would allow complete integration with all the CC processes. I am making slow progress, and no doubt it will speed up as the initial obstacles are overcome. Anyway, it is a fundemental piece of the jigsaw if we want to leverage CC3/CoI to the max to integrate with an alternative strategic game. It's do'able (as MMCCIII demonstrates), but I want to take it further.

An interesting (and also dissapointing) bit of intelligence, is that the cc3.exe will accept command line parameters for launching H2H games, but unfortunately not Single Player. That is a bummer. If it were able to do this, then all that a strategic system would need to do is write the Saved Game File and then launch CC3/CoI straight to the Requisition Screen automatically. Looks like it could be done for H2H though...

Yes, I have been dreaming of a compelling Strategic/tactical interface for CC3/CoI evern since MMCCIII first came out, as it opened the doors to the possible, and the key is the Saved Game File. Nail that, and you have won half the battle at least. I will not be creating the strategic game. I have neither the skills nor the time to do so, but I hope that I may be able to 'oil the wheels' for others. At least, that is my intention.

#23: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:12 pm
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Can anyone add to this?

http://www.closecombatwar.com/pics/hexingcc4.jpg

#24: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:15 pm
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#25: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:02 pm
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I think that MMCC3 picks up from the save game from offset 28988, that's where the data for the existing (remaining) units begins... I think.

#26: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:41 pm
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I'll take all the intel I can get on the CC3/CoI Saved Game File...

#27: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:04 am
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attached

mmcc3_1.zip

Description:

Download

Filename:

mmcc3_1.zip

Filesize:

649 Bytes

Downloaded:

320 Time(s)

#28: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:06 am
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sorry this is better

mmcc3_1.zip

Description:

Download

Filename:

mmcc3_1.zip

Filesize:

6.61 KB

Downloaded:

330 Time(s)

#29: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:00 am
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We will see what we can glean from that. Looks like the logic from the Client.

#30: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:05 am
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It's part of the java source decompiled.

Someone at CSO posted it years ago and I saved it just in case.

#31: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:40 am
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Making some progress with the Saved Game File. There are plenty of 'icky' bits, but if I can continue like this, I may have it nailed in a couple of weeks or so. But that is just the first hurdle...

#32: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:40 pm
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I had envisioned a similar idea but on a smaller scale. I couple of years ago, I took a map of Betio scaled to CC...then layed a grid system over it. It was a system of offset 1200 X 1200 grids...with the offset allowing for each map to potentially exit onto more than one map on a side. Sounds like your idea is something similar but on a grand scale.

#33: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: CSO_Talorgan,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:29 pm
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vonB wrote (View Post):

It's do'able (as MMCCIII demonstrates), but I want to take it further

Is the bloke who wrote MMCC III not still around?

Trying to think of the info that Close Combat needs to set up a tactical game:

I thought you already had the campaign file licked, ... er, Von B?

#34: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:47 pm
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apiotrow has gone

#35: Re: Seamless Strategic Scenarios... Author: vonB,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 11:05 pm
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Quote:

Trying to think of the info that Close Combat needs to set up a tactical game:

That depends. You could get away with quite little depending on how you wanted it set up, and whether it was just for a one off or part of an Operation. There's a sod of a lot of Data in that Saved Game File (over 220,000 Bytes)! MMCC3 gets a head start by creating the CC3Start File (which you create when you build the Campaign). Using this as the foundation populates quite a lot of Data without having to dive into the binary file Byte by Byte. After that, the MMCC3 Service can change a few values to kick off a Battle.

Some of the stuff is relatively easy, but there's a lot of ???? (Reserved Bytes, Padding, and values that never hit the surface). Without a Data Dictionary, it's a bit of a minefield! I have been gathering and gleaning Intel to stitch it all together, and am making some good progress! The Campaign File is irrelevant as far as this goes. The Saved Game File comprises ALL the Operational Data (that's all the details), while the Campaign File just stitches all the Ops together.

However, perhaps you or somebody can help me. I am looking for well populated CC3/CoI Saved Game Files being played as Russians. They should have plenty of Infantry and action, such as Kills (Infantry, Vehicles, Tanks, Bravery, Cowardice, Medals). Same for Guns, Vehicles, and Tanks. I have plenty of Files from games played as Germans, but Russian (Allied) Data appears first, and it is the first instances which need crunching to get the formats sorted out.

My aim is to nail as much as possible so the CC Tactical Game can be integrated as completely as possible, and that includes Experience, Health, etc, etc,... well basically all the history, so it can be passed from Battle to Battle and thus integrate with the Operation/Campaign. The Strategic Layer will need to keep a handle on all these things independantly of CC.

There are 2 main sections of the Saved Game FIle. The Operational Data, and the Operational Status. An Operation in CC3/CoI can be anything from 1 to 5 Maps. Basically whatever you can do in the Scenario Editor. Some of it is easy to nail, and some of it is just winging it, with many many trial and error, and cross referencing, hence the call for well populated Files played as Russians. For example ,there are 160 Soldier entries in the Operational Data, for each side. You can easily see these with a Hex Editor. Unused one's have 'Unkown' in them. The first Offset for these is 44392.

As anyone who has dipped into a Hex Editor knows, the String Stuff is relatively easy, but when you are face with Single Byte, 2 Byte, 4 Byte, Boolean, and whatever else lurks there, it can be very challanging, (when is a Byte just padding?), even if I do have some scraps of info left over from the old days.... and believe me, that helps!

I reckon I am around 40% through, and hope to have the Operational Data done in a week or 2. Then it's the Operational Status, and for one reason or another, that is not so straightforward (that is, even less than the Operational Data).

I will be looking for anyone interested in collabroating in due course. For reasons I can't explain, I am unable to do that with what I am doing now, but the fruits of my labours will be made available to the Community in some form. As I said, my intention is to try and oil the wheels for some Community level enterprise in terms of developing some Strategic Game, and if nothing else, it could result in some very useful Tool(s). Already it's quite fun to watch the Data spring out of the Binary onto the screen in a human form 8)

One thing I am looking forward to (if I succeed) is if the Saved Game File can be used to create custom battles without the limitation imposed by the Scenario Editor. FDeploy for example allows you to create a Battle without the restrictions on Deployment. The Saved Game File stores ALL the Data including deplyment areas, Barrages, VL's, etc etc, so maybe it can be used to create deployment areas anywhere on the Map. That we will just have to see. Wish me luck!

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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