Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD
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#1: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:33 pm
    —
I've been working on this - obviously off and on - for about six years now.  That's how long it takes when you're working on a mod... alone... in the in-between hours...
I'm keeping a forum blog over at CSO, but I should do the same here, because a) I want to generate interest, and b) I want to generate interest in people who can do battlemaps to muck in with me.  At least, I hope there's still interest in modding these days...

So, here's some examples of frontscreens.  These were done for the original CC5, so they still need to be modified slightly for tLD.



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#2: More frontscreens Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:36 pm
    —
And some more...


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#3: More frontscreens Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:39 pm
    —
...and some more...


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#4: ...and more... Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:41 pm
    —
Last one.


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#5: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:45 pm
    —
Here are the original BG images I did and the compromised version, when it turned out that the original ones just didn't translate into real game use.  Still; I do like them.


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#6: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:57 pm
    —
Here is the stratmap, and the stratmap with all the connection arrows.

So... many... arrows...

Please, if you think the map area choices could be better, or any constructive criticism, please feel free to comment.  Constructive, mind.



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#7: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:59 pm
    —
Heh, I just love it... look at the supply and reinforce maps.  

Now, try to spot the allies resupply maps...

#8: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:10 pm
    —
Here are a modified version of my original team heads.  Squadleader_id has apparently been putting my original team heads to work over the last few years; though they have evolved somewhat.

The legend is: ok, injured, incapacitated, dead, panicked, and surrendered.



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#9: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:14 pm
    —
The allied BGs were pretty straightforward. The limitations of CC tLD accompanied with the strategic requirements dictate I use Regiment/Brigade sized Battlegroups (excepting the one Recce Battalion) for the allies. The documentation and records of this operation were fantastic, so it wasn't hard at all to find the OOBs and such. CC tLD only let me down once; the 25 unit Force Pool limit meant I had to cut out a few intended units from the Armoured Brigades, but I mostly got away with AA units, since records seem to suggest the allies had cut back - or cut out completely - using AA units by this stage of the war. The only real surprise in my researching was the Princess Irene Brigade, who - unfortunately - don't seem to get enough popular press. That gives me:

(25)
1st Parachute Brigade
4th Parachute Brigade
1st Airlanding Brigade
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
505th Parachute Infantry Regiment
508th Parachute Infantry Regiment
325th Glider Infantry Regiment
501st Parachute Infantry Regiment
502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment
506th Parachute Infantry Regiment
327nd Glider Infantry Regiment
401st Glider Infantry Regiment
5th Guards Armoured Brigade
32nd Guards Armoured Brigade
2nd Welsh Armoured Guards (Recce) Battalion
8th Armoured Brigade
129th Infantry Brigade
130th Infantry Brigade
214th Infantry Brigade
69th Infantry Brigade
151st Infantry Brigade
231st Infantry Brigade
157th Infantry Brigade
"Princess Irene" Motorised Infantry Brigade (Netherlands)
1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade

I believe this is the optimal segmentation to allow the triple strategic application of: capturing the bridges, spearheading up the route to Arnhem, and holding the road (and your supply lines) from counter attacks. It also leaves a lot of battlegroup spots left for the real problem; The German battlegroups listing.

#10: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:24 pm
    —
God, what a mess. There are a number of major issues I encountered whilst trying to untangle this part of my research: the Germans had suffered gross casualties during the Normandy breakout, and many units had been heavily decimated or reduced in size; the German army had made use heavily of the Kampfgruppe, which was a very flexible, varyingly sized, and constantly adjustable battle grouping; there was a ridiculous amount of axis troop movements during Market Garden; available records of German unit involvement are sometimes sketchy, and often - I've found - contradictory or confusing; the Germans re-assigned numerous units during this conflict, so some listings will say they were attached to this division, whilst others say that division, etc; the Nazi German army did a lot of unit adjustments over it's lifetime.

All of this means that not only is is hard to have a crystal clear picture of exactly which units took part, but the units that did take part were of varying strengths rather than documented standard troop/equipment quantities, and those that took part kept getting re-assigned, were split apart and divided up between a number of battlegroups, or just plain moved around a lot.

So, in the end you've got to account for the physical limitations of the campaign map and the fact that there are only thirty-nine battlegroup places left to use; seems a lot, but like I say, with the mish-mash of german units that took part it gets messy. In the end, I had to compromise more than I would like, and this is the list (which a few people are bound to disagree with):

(39)
9th SS Panzer Division - Hohenstaufen [SS-Kampfgruppe "Hohenstauffen"]
10th S.S. Panzer Division - Frundsberg [SS-Kampfgruppe "Frundsberg"]
9 S.S. Aufklarung Abteilung (Ersatz Abteilung Bocholt)
S.S. Schule Arnheim
Kampfgruppe "Knoche"
Regiment 42 Sicherheit
Hermann Göering Schule Regiment
Sperrverband Harzer (Gerhard)
Kampfgruppe "Krafft"
Kampfgruppe "Knaust"
10th SS Recon Battalion "Brinkmann"
346th Infanterie Division
711th Static Division
719th Coastal Division
59th Infanterie Division
245th Infanterie Division
712th Infanterie Division
3rd Fallschirmjäger Division
5th Fallschirmjäger Division
Kampfgruppe "Greschick"
180th Infanterie Division
190th Infanterie Division
Division Nr. 176
6th Parachute Regiment
107th Panzer Brigade
S.S. Wach Bataillon 3
Corps HQ "Feldt"
406th Landesschützen Division
Fallschirm-Jäger-Division Erdmann
84th Infanterie Division
89th Infanterie Division
Kampfgruppe "Chill"
272nd Volksgrenadier Division
326th Volksgrenadier Division
47th Volksgrenadier Division
353rd Infanterie Division
363rd Volksgrenadier Division
Sperrverband Son
Sperrverband Grave

The first problem with this list is that, as I said, some people may not be happy with these groupings, and I can't say they'd be wrong to complain. Because of the numerous re-assignments, some of these Kampfgruppes overlap at times, or were even absorbed into other Kampfgruppes. The second problem is that most are Divisional size, and the Force Pool maximum is 25 units. Compound that with the constant swapping and sharing of troops, and I'm worried that the German unit types are going to be a lot more generalised when my allied unit listings are all pretty specific (I even got away with divisional support units). Basically, I'm still not sure this is the best solution, but it's my working solve for the time being. If anyone would like to suggest different (remember - 39 BG spots left, and 25 unit limit for each BGs total FPool), I'm open.


Last edited by Hoogley on Thu May 13, 2010 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

#11: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:32 pm
    —
Here are the Unit lists for each allied Battlegroup, including quantities (based on research data, not gameplay testing).  German unit lists will be a little longer to come...

BRITISH AIRBORNE
1st Parachute Brigade

UKPB Company HQ 9
UKPB Platoon HQ 27
UKPB Mortar Group 12
UKPB Rifle Group 54
UKPB Hv Rifle Group 27
UKPB Gun Group 81
UKPB Intelligence (Sniper) 24
UKPB MMG Group 12
UKPB Assault Section 5
UKPB AT Group 20
UKAD Fwd Observers 1
UKAD Lt Artillery 8
UKAD Lt AT Gun 8
UKAD Hv AT Gun 8
UKAD Engineer Section 9
UKAD Pathfinder Group 8
UKAD Recce Jeep 6
UKAD Recce Group

4th Parachute Brigade

UKPB Company HQ 9
UKPB Platoon HQ 27
UKPB Mortar Group 12
UKPB Rifle Group 54
UKPB Hv Rifle Group 27
UKPB Gun Group 81
UKPB Intelligence (Sniper) 24
UKPB MMG Group 12
UKPB Assault Section 5
UKPB AT Group 20
UKAD Fwd Observers 1
UKAD Lt Artillery 8
UKAD Lt AT Gun 8
UKAD Hv AT Gun 8
UKAD Engineer Section 9
UKAD Pathfinder Group 8
UKAD Recce Jeep 6
UKAD Recce Group

1st Airlanding Brigade
UKAL Company HQ 12
UKAL Platoon HQ 48
UKAL Bren Carrier 12
UKAL Md Mortar Group 18
UKAL MMG Group 24
UKAL Lt AT Gun 24
UKAL Lt Mortar Group 48
UKAL Rifle Section 108
UKAL Rifle Group 36
UKAL AT Group 48
UKAL Jeep Mortar 18
UKAD Fwd Observer 1
UKAD Lt Artillery Gun 8
UKAD Lt AT Gun 8
UKAD Hv AT Gun 8
UKAD Engineer Section 9
UKAD Pathfinder Group 8
UKAD Recce Jeep 6
UKAD Recce Group

US AIRBORNE
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment

USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2

505th Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2

508th Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2

325th Glider Infantry Regiment
USGI Company HQ 9
USGI Platoon HQ 18
USGI Rifle Team 27
USGI Hv Rifle Team 27
USGI Gun Team 54
USGI Scout Team 54
USGI Sniper 18
USGI AT Team 30
USGI LMG Team 18
USGI MMG Team 12
USGI Lt Mortar Team 36
USGI Md Mortar Team 18
USAD MMG Team 11
USAD Lt AA Gun 3
USAD Lt AT Gun 4
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 9
USAD Engineer Squad 2

US AIRBORNE CONT'
501st Parachute Infantry Regiment

USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2

502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment
USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2

506th Parachute Infantry Regiment

USAB Company HQ 9
USAB Platoon HQ 27
USAB Rifle Team 27
USAB Hv Rifle Team 27
USAB Gun Team 54
USAB Scout Team 54
USAB Sniper 27
USAB AT Team 18
USAB LMG Team 24
USAB Lt Mortar Team 27
USAB Md Mortar Team 12
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2

327th Glider Infantry Regiment
USGI Company HQ 9
USGI Platoon HQ 18
USGI Rifle Team 27
USGI Hv Rifle Team 27
USGI Gun Team 54
USGI Scout Team 54
USGI Sniper 18
USGI AT Team 30
USGI LMG Team 18
USGI MMG Team 12
USGI Lt Mortar Team 36
USGI Md Mortar Team 18
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2

401st Glider Infantry Regiment
USGI Company HQ 9
USGI Platoon HQ 18
USGI Rifle Team 27
USGI Hv Rifle Team 27
USGI Gun Team 54
USGI Scout Team 54
USGI Sniper 18
USGI AT Team 30
USGI LMG Team 18
USGI MMG Team 12
USGI Lt Mortar Team 36
USGI Md Mortar Team 18
USAD MMG Team 9
USAD Lt AA Gun 2
USAD Lt AT Gun 3
USAD Lt Artillery Gun 7
USAD Engineer Squad 2

BRITISH ARMOURED
5th Guards Armoured Brigade

UKAR Sherman HQ Tank 12
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 18
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 6
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 27
UKAR Stuart Tank 27
UKAR Cromwell 54
UKAR Sherman 54
UKAR Firefly 36
UKAR Cromwell CS 18
UKMI HQ Bren Carrier 9
UKMI HQ Halftrack 6
UKMI Platoon HQ 9
UKMI Infantry Section 27
UKMI AT Group 7
UKMI MMG Group 4
UKMI Gun Group 3
UKMI Md Mortar Group 6
UKMI Lt AT Gun 12
UKMI Bren Carrier 27
UKMI Vickers Carrier 4
UKMI Halftrack 27
UKGD Engineers 3 (9)
UKGD MMG Group 4 (12)
UKGD Hv AT Gun 8 (24)
UKGD Sexton 8 (24)

32nd Guards Armoured Brigade
UKAR Sherman HQ Tank 8
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 12
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 4
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 18
UKAR Stuart Tank 18
UKAR Cromwell 38
UKAR Sherman 38
UKAR Firefly 24
UKAR Cromwell CS 12
UKMI HQ Bren Carrier 9
UKMI HQ Halftrack 3
UKMI Platoon HQ 9
UKMI Infantry Section 27
UKMI AT Group 7
UKMI MMG Group 4
UKMI Gun Group 3
UKMI Md Mortar Group 6
UKMI Lt AT Gun 12
UKMI Bren Carrier 27
UKMI Vickers Carrier 4
UKMI Halftrack 27
UKGD Engineers 3 (9)
UKGD MMG Group 4 (12)
UKGD Hv AT Gun 8 (24)
UKGD Sexton 8 (24)

2nd Welsh Armoured Guards (Recce) Battalion
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 10
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 2
UKAR AA Tank 6
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 9
UKAR Stuart Tank 9
UKAR Cromwell 36
UKAR Firefly 12
UKAR Cromwell CS 6
UKGD Engineers 3
UKGD MMG Group 4
UKGD Md Mortar Group 1
UKGD Lt AA Gun 18
UKGD Hv AT Gun 8
UKGD Sexton 8

BRITISH ARMOURED CONT'
8th Armoured Brigade

UKAR Sherman HQ Tank 12
UKAR Cromwell HQ Tank 18
UKAR Stuart HQ Tank 6
UKAR AA Tank 18
UKAR Daimler Scout Car 27
UKAR Stuart Tank 27
UKAR Cromwell 54
UKAR Sherman 54
UKAR Firefly 36
UKAR Cromwell CS 18
UKMI Daimler HQ Scout Car 3
UKMI HQ Bren Carrier 9
UKMI HQ Halftrack 3
UKMI Platoon HQ 9
UKMI Infantry Section 27
UKMI AT Group 7
UKMI MMG Group 4
UKMI Gun Group 3
UKMI Md Mortar Group 6
UKMI AA Group 6
UKMI Lt AT Gun 12
UKMI Bren Carrier 27
UKMI Vickers Carrier 4
UKMI Halftrack 27

BRITISH INFANTRY
129th Brigade

UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10

130th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10

214th Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10

BRITISH INFANTRY CONT'
69th Brigade

UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10

151st Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10

231st Brigade
UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6
UKID Engineer Section 4
UKID MMG Group 12
UKID Hv Mortar Group 5
UKID 40mm AA Gun 16
UKID Lt AT Gun 5
UKID Hv AT Gun 10

BRITISH INFANTRY CONT'
157th Brigade

UKIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
UKIB HQ Jeep 1
UKIB Company HQ 4
UKIB Platoon HQ 12
UKIB Bren Carrier 18
UKIB Jeep 6
UKIB Rifle Group 24
UKIB Hv Rifle Group 12
UKIB Assault Section 2
UKIB Pioneer Section 1
UKIB Gun Group 42
UKIB Sniper 8
UKIB AT Group 30
UKIB Lt Mortar Group 31
UKIB Hv Mortar Group 6
UKIB Lt AT Gun 6

DUTCH INFANTRY
Dutch "Princess Irene" Motorised Infantry Brigade

DMIB HQ Daimler Dingo 1
DMIB HQ Humber Scout Car 3
DMIB HQ Bren Carrier 5
DMIB Platoon HQ 12
DMIB Humber Armoured Car Mk.IV 4
DMIB Bren Carrier 19
DMIB Vickers Carrier 3
DMIB Rifle Section 31
DMIB Engineers 9
DMIB AT Group 5
DMIB MMG Group 1
DMIB 3in. Mortar 3
DMIB Fwd Observer 1
DMIB Oerlikon 20mm AA Gun 4
DMIB Ordinance 6pdr 3

POLISH AIRBORNE
1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade

PIPB HQ Jeep 1
PIPB Company HQ 9
PIPB Platoon HQ 27
PIPB Jeep 16
PIPB Rifle Section 54
PIPB Hv Rifle Section 27
PIPB Gun Group 81
PIPB Pioneer Section 9
PIPB Engineer Section 9
PIPB MMG Group 6
PIPB 3in. Mortar 6
PIPB Fwd Observer 2
PIPB 6pdr AT Gun 6
PIPB Polsten 20mm AA Gun 9
PIPB Pack Howitzer 4

#12: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: wurger PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:44 pm
    —
excellent work, mate!

#13: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: ronsonLocation: England PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:56 pm
    —
Good Luck with your mod, looks nice so far, however if I may offer some advice:-

Looking at the Brit armoured BGs I notice you seem to have a lot of Cromwells around, by the time of Market Garden the Guards were operating in 'regt. groupings' as opposed to the more formal Bde groupings.
So there were Grenadier, Coldstream, Irish and Welsh BG within the Division each consisting of an Armoured battalion and a Infantry Battalion. Of these the first 3 were equipped with Sherman V tanks, plus the Recce Sqn of Stuarts, whilst the Welsh BG had mainly Cromwells, again with the addition of Stuarts in the Recce Sqn.
A point of conjecture is if the Welsh used the Challenger gun tank in the Cromwell Troops at this time or if they still retained the Sherman FF, sources are divided, so your dammed whichever you choose! Laughing

The 8th Armoured Bde was formed of 3 Armoured Regts. 4/7 Dragoon Guards, 13/18 Hussars and Sherwood Rangers, these similarly were equipped with the Sherman too at that time, with the usual Stuart in the Recce Sqns.

I hope this is of some help to you, and as I said in the first line Good Luck Smile

Cheers
Ronson

#14: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Sapa PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:18 pm
    —
You have done a fantastic work!  Very Happy

If someone like me thats doing only "half-made" mods should have any opinion..just missing an area before Eindhoven with the breakthrough area for Horrocks, but i suppose the stratmap should be too stretcht then?

anyway..great work! Very Happy

#15: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: vonB PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:43 pm
    —
To a realism nutcase like me, the quality of people CC attracts is both remarkable and satisfying.  Yes, ok, there are a few plonkers at the bottom end, but on the whole, they are relatively harmless.

That is impressive work Hoogley! A long labour of love and dedication, and kudos to you for sticking with it.  If I had the time to produce Maps for you, I would be sorely tempted, though I am going to need Maps myself sometime if my own endeavours ever come to light.  Come to think of it, apart from the improvements we would dearly love to see with the CC Engine, a 'Map generator' could be the single most powerful and useful utility to the CC Community as a way to help promote and speed up Mod developments.  The biggest hurdle being the issue of Map Coding I think, and I am not sure if there is any way around that.  Any genius's about?...

#16: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:04 pm
    —
SAPA

this is not about you.

#17: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 8:06 pm
    —
As a start...

There are a huge amount of WF style maps available now which can be used as place holders for any map you wish to include in a mod.


Pick 64 and you are on your way.....   re-paints can wait and/or be added as they become available.

#18: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:50 pm
    —
Like I said over at CSO...very nice work and good luck!
Map making is the killer of mods...so you might want to consider Shreckie's tip.
Also check out Mafi's CC2Tool ...great for cutting/shrinking and flipping maps (incl. auto-coding).

#19: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:29 pm
    —
Looks great!
will it use CC2 maps also?

#20: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: platoon_michaelLocation: Right behind you PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:01 am
    —
You could also consider re-painting the old CCII maps with newer textures.
(I still can't find that fellas post who was doing it years ago,maybe it got lost in a CSO crash)

You could then use 5CC to easily change the elements from the old CCII to work on the newer versions of CC.

Not the same as having something new,but making maps suck and we have no one who is willing to create a map generator.

#21: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:31 am
    —
Nice work mate!  Very Happy

Looks really great, I like the NATO-style BG icons, and if you ever manage to bring it ashore I promise you have a fan. Wish I could help you, but you seems to have done the unit data and map-making isn't my strongest side (to be honest, a 6-year old could probably make better maps...) but if none else beats me too it, I can always whine about small errors in the units/force pools.  Wink

But what about Horrocks breakthrough? There some really good (and important) battles there, but as Sapa wrote: "I suppose the stratmap should be too stretcht then?"  Sad

Finally; have you read "It never snows in September" by Robert Kershaw? -An awesome book about the German perspective of Market Garden.

#22: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Sapa PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:01 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
SAPA

this is not about you.


thanks Smile

#23: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:45 am
    —
platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
You could also consider re-painting the old CCII maps with newer textures.
.


believe me when i say repainting old maps with mew textures is bloody hard work.  It's actually easier to start from scratch and use the old maps strictly as a template.  I "winterized" a few Cc3 maps a way back and realistically it probably wasn't worth the effort.  I'd have been more productive starting something fresh

#24: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: vonB PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:57 am
    —
Quote:
believe me when i say repainting old maps with mew textures is bloody hard work.  It's actually easier to start from scratch and use the old maps strictly as a template.  I "winterized" a few Cc3 maps a way back and realistically it probably wasn't worth the effort.  I'd have been more productive starting something fresh


And that's from someone who KNOWS what he is talking about...

#25: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:25 pm
    —
Thanks to all for the kudos.  

Southern_land: thanks for the tip.  I was considering using one or two of the original maps as a starting point for making larger versions, but I'll give that idea the flick based on your advice.  Cheers.

Honestly, I've played CCII a lot.  I'm more interested in creating a new experience.  Besides that, I'd rather make bigger maps.  I know some think that smaller maps are better, but I think larger maps give more opportunity for broader tactics.  Huge maps aren't good for gameplay.

7A_Woulf: Oooh... you worded that badly.  Because, I haven't finished all of the data, as it happens.   Smile   The German BGs are only in first draft; the Allied Force Pool may need revising (according to some, and I'll get to that); the German Force Pool is far from finished; the German units list is going to be a huge problem, as stated earlier; the weapons list is complete only in name, but none of the weapon stats are sorted; and I've only just started actually entering it into the appropriate txt files... interested?

On the weapons; it would be easiest to just pinch everything I can from previous iterations, but would there be any consistency if I did that?  I'm thinking "no", but I'm interested in suggestions and especially experience.

ronson:  Again, you probably shouldn't have said anything.  You seem to have a sound knowledge of battle organisation variations for this particular period of WWII.  I got the majority of my unit types and lists from an online source (www.bayonetstrength.150m.com - bloody fantastic actually) that gave fairly time-centric lists, but nothing that specific (no exact tank types, for example).  I'll mirror this sentiment in a pvt msg, but are you interested and do you have time to maybe provide some advice/collaboration on the allied and axis unit lists?  The German side in particular is looking a little messy at the moment; anyone with clear knowledge would be an asset to me.

And, on the last point; yeah, the fact that the road south of Eindhoven is missing is a sore-point for me too.  Originally, I based my stratmap area on the original CCII stratmap.  As such, because that game is primarily about the airborne effort, the XXX Corps route is not represented in full.  Obviously, as I researched more, I started to realise that I'd missed out a piece of the puzzle.  The problem is; I've already finished a real pretty stratmap.  So, I've been trying to ignore it... damn you all.  :)

If I add it, it makes a major reconsideration of everything in relation to the stratmap and placement of battlemaps.  So, it's not a light decision to make at this stage.  Basically, it means more work.   Sad

#26: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: ronsonLocation: England PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:29 pm
    —
Quote:
ronson:  Again, you probably shouldn't have said anything.


Ha me and my big mouth again!  Laughing

Sure I'd be glad to be of assistance with the unit lists, mostly my knowledge is of British units, but I'd be happy to scratch around and see what I can dig up for the other nations involved too, as  sometimes they are mentioned in the various regimental accounts of actions in this period.

Yes the 'bayonetstrenght' site does give a good basic understanding of the types and strenghts of various units and is I feel a very good starting point for any venture of this kind.

Another site you might like to look at is 21st Army Group http://www.truxmodels.co.uk/

Drop me a PM anytime and I'll happily respond Smile

Cheers
Ronson

#27: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:41 pm
    —
ronson, that is a corker site.  Cheers!

#28: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:09 pm
    —
Talking about the XXX Corps; -Have you thought of creating a stratmap where the airborne units can move aside and leave a clear way for the Guards Armour? It's a small prob with the CC engine that you can't move a BG through a friendly BG...  Sad

Right now I'm a bit short of time, vigour and brain-capacity the few days I'm home during the weekends (six months of night-work have a tendency of breaking a man  Wink ) but let's see what we can do once I'm home for good.

A link though:
http://www.paradata.org.uk/events/arnhem-operation-market-garden

There is one thing I've been thinking about regarding Market Garden for CC: -Is it possible to 'randomise' the map where airborne supply lands? In CC4 and tLD it lands at the designated map, doesn't it? Played board-game in my youth, 'Market-Garden: Decent into Hell ' and there your airborne supply could scatter, much annoying when your evil big-brother and his wicked Germans got your much needed supply...  Crying or Very sad

#29: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:20 pm
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Talking about the XXX Corps; -Have you thought of creating a stratmap where the airborne units can move aside and leave a clear way for the Guards Armour? It's a small prob with the CC engine that you can't move a BG through a friendly BG...  Sad


Actually, the map layout is deliberate.  One of the issues that XXX Corps had was trying to move traffic up and down the route to Arnhem, and this problem held everything up on occasion.  Consequently, I've tried to make the map so that you have to be consciously thinking about this strategic/logistic element of keeping your units from getting in each others way and causing "roadblocks".

My personal concept for gameplay is this:

Allies: take and hold your bridge objectives with the airborne; keep the airborne alive until XXX Corps arrives; try to get XXX Corps up the road as quickly as you can; keep your supply line open; defend against counter attacks.

Germans: stop the allies from gaining the bridges; eradicate the airborne before they get reinforced and resupplied; hold up XXX Corps as much as possible; try to cut the allied supply line; generally harry the allies to cause confusion.

So, for the allies, much like in CCII, speed is a necessity.  Initially, you need to move your airborne quickly to reach the bridge objectives before the Germans stop you.  You also need to try and move your stronger armoured units up the route as quickly as you can to support, relieve, and resupply the airborne troops, so you need to keep the highway clear and win battles decisively and quickly, otherwise the road will quickly get backed up with units trying to move.  While this is your main thrust, you've also got this very vulnerable supply line to try and protect, so you will be second guessing where the Germans are going to attack, and trying to leave behind units to defend; otherwise they'll take valuable time to send back down the line, and that whole time you'll be out of supply.

The idea for the Germans will be that, just like in real life, you will start off with a pitiful handful of mobilised units, and you'll need to use them cleverly in order to stop the operation dead in it's tracks.  Each turn your BGs will gain more and more units in their Force Pools, and more BGs will show up from off map to aid in the defensive.  So, the longer you hold out, the stronger your position becomes.  The other idea is that the maps for the bridges need to be constructed in such a way that, if the Germans hold the map and the allies attack (edit - from the bridge), then the Germans stand a good chance of maintaining the map.  This means that, for the Germans, being in possession of the bridge maps is crucial.  And, lastly, attacking and cutting off the allied supply line will help to weaken the spearhead - chop off the feet and the head will die(?)

All of this will create tense gameplay - if it come together properly.   Very Happy

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

There is one thing I've been thinking about regarding Market Garden for CC: -Is it possible to 'randomise' the map where airborne supply lands? In CC4 and tLD it lands at the designated map, doesn't it? Played board-game in my youth, 'Market-Garden: Decent into Hell ' and there your airborne supply could scatter, much annoying when your evil big-brother and his wicked Germans got your much needed supply...  Crying or Very sad


This would be a great addition to increase the "realism" of the engine, but it's not something that exists currently (unless there's something I've missed?), and I doubt tLD would ever see it.  Good idea, though.


Last edited by Hoogley on Sun May 16, 2010 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

#30: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 3:55 pm
    —
I hope you make that XXX corp road maps! So axis have opportunity to hold the brits from the start!

#31: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:35 pm
    —
yeh... I think though the AB battles are significant you do need the "Saved by the Cavalry" option lurking in the background.


Then once XXX corps get moving they need to keep the line of supply open, all adds to the drama.

#32: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: CSO_Talorgan PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:25 pm
    —
vonB wrote (View Post):
The biggest hurdle being the issue of Map Coding I think


It's the graphics which present the challenge to us left-brained types.

#33: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:18 pm
    —
Hmmm... ok, well, I can add the XXX Corps breakthrough I guess.  It shouldn't be too much extra work, though it will definitely draw things out a little.  It just means that a few things need to be reconsidered: the stratmap will need a major overhaul for a start; I will need to redirect BG spots to represent the German forces south of Eindhoven, which means I'll need to rethink what BGs will be represented in Arnhem.  Not necessarily bad, as Arnhem was looking like it was going to get pretty cluttered with units all trying to move around each other.  I will also need to reconsider my battlemap layout, as XXX Corps needs to be able to reach Arnhem in a timeframe akin to that of history.

If anyone has suggestions, please, feel free.  Smile

I will have to omit VIII and XII Corps, though; there is just not enough resources in tLD to have it all.   Confused

#34: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Nomada_Firefox PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:30 am
    —
Very impressive work, I like a lot the images from graphics.

#35: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: dacman82Location: Perth, Australia PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:49 am
    —
Hoogley, You are my God. Praise be Jebus

#36: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: vonB PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:37 am
    —
Quote:
It's the graphics which present the challenge to us left-brained types.


Being a left brained type myself, I can relate to that  Cool .  However, what I mean is the challange of introducing some 'automatic' process to produce Map Coding, and on that I am stumped.  Just can't think of a way, except to make the manual process faster, and again, I can't think of a way....

And we haven't even touched on the challanges of automating Roofs, but I see that as an easier issue to deal with.

#37: Break in transmision Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:59 am
    —
Hey,

Sorry guys, I've got to do some web design for my boss, so I will be distracted for a few nights.  I'll get back into the mod as soon as I can.  Catch you then.  Wink

Hoogs.

#38: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:15 pm
    —
Ok... Well, I'm sorry guys; don't know what I was thinking.  Adding the road south of Eindhoven to the Belgium border is a bit of an issue, unless anybody knows if you can arbitrarily extend the campaign map.  All my experiments with altering gadget sizes suggests a resounding no chance.  

And my stratmap has, in truth, already been modified a ways from reality in order to fit it all in, and squashing everything into the same image size means redoing the entire map!!!!!, which - I will be straight with you - does not excite me.

So, unless I can make the map bigger, I'm not going to do it.

#39: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:21 pm
    —
Keep it how it is... it's your vision.

#40: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:00 pm
    —
Ok, let's get interactive.

I am not entirely satisfied with my battlemap region layout for the campaign map.  It's fine, but it could be better.

So, if anyone is interested, let's have a competition... of sorts... without the competitive element present... so that would not be a competition.  Well, let's have a not a competition.

The rules of the not a competition are:

* Copy the campaign map from this thread.

* Open it in the graphics app of your choice.  Mark with red circles (like circling an ad' in the paper) where you think the battle map regions should be.

* Save; convert to .jpeg; upload it in a post on this thread.


Important considerations:

* 64 map limit

* XXX Corps need to be able to make it Arnhem - if they were moving along the highway "map path", one battlemap per turn, each and every turn, without interference - in 2-3 days.
 I hope that made sense.

* Identify which maps have bridges.

* Historical Drop Zones have to be represented.  Identify them on the map.

* Links across waterways should ONLY be across bridge (and ferry?) maps.

* Identify which maps are allied/axis supply maps
(truly, the allies should just have the one south of Eindhoven, but if you disagree then stake a claim!).

You can comment on any of your choices in the post, but there is no obligation to.

Cool.  Lets see what everybody's got.   Very Happy

#41: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: platoon_michaelLocation: Right behind you PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:20 pm
    —
Where is Student's First Parachute Army?

#42: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:22 pm
    —
One thing I should just mention: This mod is for the community.  However, all images remain the intellectual property of Duncan Beale. They are not to be used for any purpose without my express permission.  Any permission of use given on this forum site is purely for non-profit community use.  Commercial use is not inferred in any permission given on this site, nor is any use that results in personal or commercial financial gain.

Ok, sorry; just had to get that ugly little business out of the way.   ;)


That said, feel free to add the team heads to your build.

#43: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: platoon_michaelLocation: Right behind you PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:35 pm
    —
I also don't see Von Zangen's Fifteen Army included in the list.

Or am I just not understanding it?

#44: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:56 pm
    —
platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
Where is Student's First Parachute Army?


First Parachute Army
 II Fallschirmjäger Korps
   3rd Fallschirmjäger Division
   5th Fallschirmjäger Division
   Kampfgruppe Greschick

  XII SS Korps (12th)
   180th Infantry Division
   190th Infantry Division

 LXXXVI Korps
   Division Nr. 176
   6th Parachute Regiment
   107th Panzer Brigade

 Wehrkreis VI
   Corps "Feldt"
   406th Landesschützen Division
   Fallschirm-Jäger-Division Erdmann
   84th Infanterie Division
   89th Infanterie Division

 LXXIV Corps
   Kampfgruppe "Chill"
   272nd Volksgrenadier Division
   326th Volksgrenadier Division

 LXXXI Corps
   47th Volksgrenadier Division
   353rd Infantry Division
   363rd Volksgrenadier Division


Like I've said before; the above unit relationship table is probably open to interpretation, since the OOBs of this operation changed a few times.

#45: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:06 pm
    —
platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
I also don't see Von Zangen's Fifteen Army included in the list.

Or am I just not understanding it?


Fifteenth Army
 LXVII Korps
   346th Infanterie Division
   711th Static Division
   719th Coastal Division

 LXXXVIII Korps (88th)
   KG "Walther"
   59th Infanterie Division
   245th Infanterie Division
   712th Infanterie Division


Again, the previous disclaimer about OOBs applies.  

Army level is too high to be useful; I'm using Divison, Brigade, Regiment & Battalion sized BGs.  I don't even like using divisional level, but I don't have enough BG spots, or map room for that matter, to fit all the units in otherwise.

#46: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:35 pm
    —
I'm currently doing a second revision of my battlemap placements.  Trying to un-squeeze everything a little, whilst refining important map positions.  

Added the Maas-Waal Canal, which I failed to notice the absence of until now.

It still takes a minimum of 5 1/2 days to get to Arnhem based on the lead elements of XXX Corps showing up on the map 3rd turn of second day (around noon).  Which is a problem if we are trying to emulate the desired outcome, rather than the historical outcome... hmmmm...  

No solution immediately presents itself to mind, as all of the battlemap placements along XXX Corps route are kind of crucial.  I could solidify Son, Veghel and Grave into one battlemap each, rather than one for each town and bridge.  That would knock off three turns.  Not overly keen on the idea.



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#47: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:38 pm
    —
How many "Turns" per day are you proposing.

You can have Four plus a night turn.....

#48: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtnLocation: USA PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:16 am
    —
Very nice.  Good to see that there is still some life in this old favorite.

One request that I would make is that in addition to playing vs AI that you make it playable against a human opponent.  Some of us are no longer able to abide an AI opponent before falling asleep.  Its a whole different world plain against an opponent with a brain.

looks like you have a great start going.

#49: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:47 am
    —
Ahhh...  I thought it was 4 turns, and you could designate the 4th turn as either night or day.  Hmmmmm... so, a possible max of 5 turns per day.  That still means, if XXX Corps turns up on the 2nd turn of day two, that it's going to take a minimum of 5 days to reach Arnhem bridge with my current battlemap configuration.

Problems, problems.  The issue is that the CC5/TLD engine is not designed to emulate this operation in a way that would benefit gameplay (and realism).  If armoured and mobile units could move more than one map per turn (like if you had a "movement" bar that reduced as you moved, and each different type of unit had different values - cohesion?), then easily could you better represent the XXX Corps push to Arnhem.  And that is really the only problem; well, that and the inability to increase the campaign map size.

The interesting thing is that if I added the area between Eindhoven and Belgium, and used a max of three maps to represent this area, then you could make it to Arnhem bridge in four days flat.  Aaaargh!  I was trying to avoid having to kill my campaign map, but I think it's almost a given.  Actually, what I could do is "shrink" the current image and just add to the blank space left, either on all sides or just the area between Belgium and Eindhoven.

I am also starting to think that I need to reconsider how I represent the battlemap regions.  Because of how the engine spaces the unit icons, there is a probable issue with overlap.  One thing I'm thinking I will have to resort to is using the "classic" battlemap region zoning, and maybe have the bridge objectives in my current style of a box-in, or maybe even a box-out.

So, in the end, this current campaign map is far from finished.

#50: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:42 pm
    —
Teaser... in progress.


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#51: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: golani_2 PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:14 pm
    —
You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*

#52: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtnLocation: USA PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:56 pm
    —
Its always a challenge finding the right balance between game play and historical aspects of a campaign given the limits of the game format.  But don't feel that you need to alter the game play significantly just to accomplish the historical goal.  At the end of the day its the joy of fighting battles on the terrain and having a semblence of what the commanders had to face in the real life battle.

#53: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pvt_GruntLocation: Melbourne, Australia PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:31 pm
    —
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote (View Post):
Its always a challenge finding the right balance between game play and historical aspects of a campaign given the limits of the game format.  But don't feel that you need to alter the game play significantly just to accomplish the historical goal.  At the end of the day its the joy of fighting battles on the terrain and having a semblence of what the commanders had to face in the real life battle.


Well said. If I want absolute realism I wouldn't be playing a game.

#54: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:11 pm
    —
The revised strategic map


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#55: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:24 pm
    —
golani_2 wrote (View Post):
You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*


I'm trying to avoid using the original maps; they're too claustrophobic for my liking.  If I were to use any, they would have to be heavily expanded and modified.

#56: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:14 am
    —
Great looking map Hoogley.

Nice stuff!

#57: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:12 am
    —
Here is the first revision of the battlemap placements.


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#58: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: golani_2 PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):
golani_2 wrote (View Post):
You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*


I'm trying to avoid using the original maps; they're too claustrophobic for my liking.  If I were to use any, they would have to be heavily expanded and modified.


Don't know if I mentioned it already, but you're the man!  Very Happy

#59: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 10:05 pm
    —
that looks damn good!
what is this extreme S town looks quite far of the actual road
what happened overthere?

#60: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:25 am
    —
golani_2 - "Don't know if I mentioned it already, but you're the man!  Very Happy"

Shucks, golani_2, you're making me blush.

pagskier - '"what is this extreme S town looks quite far of the actual road
what happened overthere?"


s'-Hertogenbosch?  Not much happened there, actually.  It's there for gameplay reasons.  I wanted to give the German player a bit of flexibility of movement.  From what I've read, the Germans were moving troops from here to there and back again; if I recall correctly, I think the 6th Falschirmjager took part in... actually, I think it was all three operational zones: 1st (Arnhem), 82nd (Nijmegen), and 101st (Eindhoven).  Unfortunately, I couldn't put in the route across the (name escapes me momentarily) ferry to the east - again for gameplay reasons, but I still wanted to give the Germans a lot of room to maneuver.

So, if you look at my battlemap placements, you'll see that each "zone" is a bulbous mass of maps, which constrict to a bridge crossing (or two) between each zone:  Arnhem - Nijmegen Bridge - Nijmegen - Grave Bridge - Eindhoven.  So, the Allied player really has to take each adjoining bridge in order to move to the next operational area.  (Now, I know this contravenes history in regard to Nijmegen.  Unfortunately, using the CCtLD engine, having a map setup for the river crossing would equate to a "cheat" to move armour across the river.  So, though I thought long and hard, I've decided to leave it out.  Sorry to all the purists (myself included), but hopefully you can see my reasoning.)

Combat in the Eindhoven area (101st) expanded west from Eindhoven to Best, Schijndel, and Oss; and out to Helmond and Gemert on the east.  Helmond and s'-Hertogenbosch seem to have been major operational hubs for the Germans.  To represent this, I've included s'-Hertogenbosch (it's frightening how easily I can spell this now) not because any battles occured there, but as a German supply & reinforcement point, from which the German player can direct his units onto the XXX Corps route.  From there you can move them anywhere from Eindhoven to Grave.  Likewise, Helmond is the supply hub to the east of the route.


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#61: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:28 am
    —
Thanks for the answer!
It sounds damn nice being able to manoeuver, defend stuff
the tactical map will be usefull!
everytime I consult the thread it overmatch my expectations!!!
can't wait for that!

#62: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: buufaceLocation: Thailand PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:10 am
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Looks incredible... keep up the good work !

#63: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:45 pm
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Out of interest, does anybody think there would be a problem with combining Son Town and Son Bridge into one battlemap?

It would make life easier for a couple of reasons, but I want to get some feedback on the idea first.

#64: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:48 am
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Would be a rather large map width wise and a lot of detail in between to boot.  Would make for an interesting approach battle thats for sure.  Dont know how much of the attacking force would actually reach either objective without sustaining significant loses.

I cant see why it wouldn't work though, however, there are those that prefer the smaller CC2 type maps.

Got my vote.

#65: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:34 am
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remember tLD supports large CCMT sized maps.... you don't have to win a map in a single battle to have fun.


I forsee the day when the whole campaign will take place on just one single map... about 100 times larger than todays CCMT maps..

#66: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:32 am
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schrecken wrote (View Post):
I forsee the day when the whole campaign will take place on just one single map... about 100 times larger than todays CCMT maps..


I also have this dream.  Imaging if the engine showed the campaign map in a way similar to the extreme zoomed out battle maps; small icons representing real time movement of your troops as you manouver around the campaign map.  When an engagement occurs, the real time actually freezes whilst you zoom down to battlemap level to fight it out, and then zooms back out after the engagement is over.

That would be awesome.

I also don't think 3D has to be a bad word.  I think that you could do exactly the same game in 3D; lock the view in overhead to keep the CC feel to the game, but then the player can zoom in and out of the map.

God, that would be awesome, to see CC become totally modernised.  It would definitely cost more in development, particularly in order to do it right; 3D should only add to the experience, not detract from it.  Then there's the problem of losing easy community modding; but wait, if you can use the inhouse tools of Far Cry to make your own custom maps, then whoever developed CC3D could just chuck in all the tools necessary for people like us to carve it all to hell.  Smile

#67: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:10 am
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So, ronson is now officially the mod's chief (and only) researcher, with a particlar knowledge of the British military.  Already he has provided a wealth of information on British combat organisations.  As such, we've reworked the allied BGs for XXX Corps to better represent actual combat formations, rather than on paper OOB lists.  They still have the same number of BGs, they're just slightly different.  So, this is the reworked allied BGs:

1st Parachute Brigade
4th Parachute Brigade
1st Airlanding Brigade
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
505th Parachute Infantry Regiment
508th Parachute Infantry Regiment
325th Glider Infantry Regiment
501st Parachute Infantry Regiment
502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment
506th Parachute Infantry Regiment
327nd Glider Infantry Regiment
401st Glider Infantry Regiment
Irish Guards/Guards Armoured BG (Cromwells/Armoured Recce)
Welsh Guards/Guards Armoured BG
Grenadier Guards/Guards Armoured BG
Coldstream Guards/Guards Armoured BG
129th Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
130th Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
214th Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
69th Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
151st Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
231st Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
157th Infantry Brigade w/elements 8th Armoured Brigade
"Princess Irene" Motorised Infantry Brigade (Netherlands)
1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade

Of course, this means I will have to redo the BG images and lists to reflect these changes.  

We are still looking for people with knowledge of OMG in relation to the German forces, particular battles, detailed weapons information (mm steel penetration at various ranges?  Who knows this stuff??), and any specialist information that will be useful.  And, if anybody can supply aerial photographs of any key battlezones, then these would be more than appreciated.  Everbody who contributes will be mentioned in the credits.

And, I'm still looking for map makers.  Trying to find a good map maker is like trying to find a good woman.  Wink

#68: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:50 pm
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Looks bloody great!  Very Happy
Nice work so far, keep it up.

#69: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:14 pm
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Hey Hoogley,

With "Last Stand Arnhem" coming out soon I hope your angle to this battle can still generate enough interest. You should consider using the maps from the new game. You could draw them from scratch after original aerial photographs but they would still look the same. I have hundreds of these photographs and would be happy to share them with you (btw, the S3T team have them too Wink )  . Here is a link to get you started (it's in Dutch though). http://watwaswaar.nl/
Question: why do you opt for a stratmap with this orientation? I thought the TLD stratmap was vertical?
Note on stratmap movement: (this applies to CC5) using Mafi's RtB tool you can link any map to another and that way you can create shortcuts. Don't know about TLD because I have not tried modding that one yet.  
Remarks on spelling on your stratmap: generally correct but there are a few minor errors: "St. Odenrode" should be "St. Oedenrode" or "Sint Oedenrode", " s'-Hertogenbosch" should be " 's-Hertogenbosch", "Benenden-Leeuwen" should be "Beneden-Leeuwen" , "Passewaaj" should be "Passewaaij".

#70: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:53 am
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Pete wrote (View Post):
Hey Hoogley,

With "Last Stand Arnhem" coming out soon I hope your angle to this battle can still generate enough interest. You should consider using the maps from the new game. You could draw them from scratch after original aerial photographs but they would still look the same. I have hundreds of these photographs and would be happy to share them with you (btw, the S3T team have them too Wink )  . Here is a link to get you started (it's in Dutch though). http://watwaswaar.nl/
Question: why do you opt for a stratmap with this orientation? I thought the TLD stratmap was vertical?
Note on stratmap movement: (this applies to CC5) using Mafi's RtB tool you can link any map to another and that way you can create shortcuts. Don't know about TLD because I have not tried modding that one yet.  
Remarks on spelling on your stratmap: generally correct but there are a few minor errors: "St. Odenrode" should be "St. Oedenrode" or "Sint Oedenrode", " s'-Hertogenbosch" should be " 's-Hertogenbosch", "Benenden-Leeuwen" should be "Beneden-Leeuwen" , "Passewaaj" should be "Passewaaij".


* Bugger.  I must have missed the memo about Last Stand Arnhem, because I've only just found these screenshots.  Before I saw these, I thought this game looked kind of dead in the water, which is partly why I picked up the batton again.  That and downloading TLD.  It looks good; I am now excited.  :)

Hmmm... this bears consideration.  I've put heaps of work in so far, it would be annoying to stop now.  I could wait for LSA to come out and make this a mod for that engine.  It seems possible LSA will be out before this mod is finished... again, hmmmm... might as well push on, what.

* Using the maps from the new game would, indeed, help my cause.  If I've got any battlemap zones that aren't represented herein, I can always add more maps.  

* I went for this orientation because when I started I was making the mod for CC5, and these were the stratmap dimensions for that game.  So, there was more room lengthwise than heightwise, which is why the map is turned 90 degrees counterclockwise.  Actually, now that I look at it, I see that the CCTLD stratmap may be a different size to the original CC5; hope that won't be a problem, as I'm really not keen to redo the map again.

* I am actually trying to make sure there are no shortcuts.  The idea, from a gameplay perspective, is that the Germans should be able to drop a blocking force anywhere along the route to hold up XXX Corps, and the bridges should act as choke points.  If XXX Corps can just easily skip past these blockades then the whole element of delay is lost. I am, in fact, considering strategically removing one or two map connections to increase the choke point aspect of the Son, St. Oedenrode, Veghel, and Best bridges.  This may deviate slightly from reality, but there has to be a reason in the game to take and hold the bridges, which there isn't if you can easily just drive around them.

* Thanks for the spelling tips; I think this is a combination of bad English spellings of Dutch words, and me just producing typos in a rush.  Smile

#71: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:01 am
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http://watwaswaar.nl/

Pete, you are bloody brilliant.  Wink

#72: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:26 am
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You gotta do it !
i'll probly buy that new CC but your mod thinking looks fantastic so I wouldn`t mind playing both
I`m sure in concept this will rock

and ooh yes this website rocks heh
I wish there was somethin like this for the whole W europe

#73: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:41 am
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Make it a mod for LSA.  Would be great to play it, keep going.

#74: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:01 pm
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There are a lot of interesting possibilities for what LSA is going to be able to do, based on the limited screenshots available.  However, schrecken is not giving out any secrets, so who knows.  

If they've implemented half of what the screenshots suggest, then I will have to eat my previous words about S3T not really adding much extra hardcore functionality to the engines; they've quite possibly outdone themselves this time.  For example, it appears they've implemented a system for assault crossings, which solves Nijmengen Bridge; they also appear to have allowances to move multiple BGs onto a single map, which is just freaking fantastic, and suggests a plethora of gameplay elements including being able to move XXX Corps up a route when it is already populated; and I am hoping that blowing up bridges is going to be in there somewhere as well.

The only annoying thing is that now I am making a mod which is exactly the same op as the next iteration of CC, will work better on the next iteration, and will probably need changes when I figure out what the next iteration is capable of.

I think it's best to keep going with the idea that this is a mod for TLD, and we can consider whether to change engines after LSA has been released.  Smile

#75: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:43 pm
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Keep working on a mod for tLD.

Why?

A) We never know for sure when LSA arrives.
B) And when it comes, I'm (sadly) sure it will take a few patches to get a working product. (...or?)
C) Not everyone will buy it, due to financially or other reasons. (There is always peps that think their favourite version is the ultimate CC  Wink )
D) You're good Hoogley, but you can't work against an un-released product...  Rolling Eyes

#76: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:39 am
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Keep working on a mod for tLD.

Why?

A) We never know for sure when LSA arrives.
B) And when it comes, I'm (sadly) sure it will take a few patches to get a working product. (...or?)
C) Not everyone will buy it, due to financially or other reasons. (There is always peps that think their favourite version is the ultimate CC  Wink )
D) You're good Hoogley, but you can't work against an un-released product...  Rolling Eyes


Exactly right 7A_Woulf.  All of the reasons that have passed through my mind so far.

#77: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:12 pm
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You should really try and draw maps yourself. If you are familiar with the pen tool in photoshop and would use existing textures (Dodam's for instance) you could make a lot of progress quite quickly I reckon.
LSA might have a few novelties but I am not sure how novel they are. The supposedly 2 battle group icons could be 1 icon after all. Seen that type of indication of units also in the GJS battle group patches in the BG screen (infantry with armour attached) . Perhaps people would want to play Market Garden on TLD anyway.

#78: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:26 pm
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Pete wrote (View Post):
You should really try and draw maps yourself. If you are familiar with the pen tool in photoshop and would use existing textures (Dodam's for instance) you could make a lot of progress quite quickly I reckon.
LSA might have a few novelties but I am not sure how novel they are. The supposedly 2 battle group icons could be 1 icon after all. Seen that type of indication of units also in the GJS battle group patches in the BG screen (infantry with armour attached) . Perhaps people would want to play Market Garden on TLD anyway.


Pete, you could quite possibly be reading my mind.  Smile   Last night I was experimenting with map making, because I'm interested in something; would CC work with photo-realistic battlemaps?  I've been playing with texturing to see if you can build maps out of photo objects in a way that makes it look more realistic.  And, in fact, I had an epiphany whilst writing this reply.  Cheers, Pete!

So, there are two ways you can do this:  

a) build a palette of photo objects and try to texture paint the map in such a way that it looks more "realistic" than "artistic".  This is what I was trying to do last night, and is the same thing as normal map building, when all is said and done.

b) (This idea excites me)  Build a map in a 3D map builder, say... Far Cry (which I own), and then take screenshots of the overhead view of said map and paste them together to build your final 2D image of a fully rendered 3D environment.  Hmmmm... In theory, this would actually make the graphic design part of building maps a lot easier, and better looking; in theory.  I haven't actually tried to do this yet, so I don't know what the outcome would be.  Time and learning curve permitting, I should have something to show y'all within the week.  ;)

Hmmmm.... another thought I just had; what about 3D rendered vehicle images?  And, can you extract the soldier sprites and put in shots of 3D rendered soldiers?  Would they look better?
 
All very interesting. *rubbing hands together* See, this is what happens when an artist build mods!  Laughing

#79: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:01 am
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davidssfx made a whole game and tutorial based around an o/head photo

#80: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:15 pm
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Unfortunately, the Far Cry 2 map editor doesn't live up to my expectations; the palette is a little more limited than I was lead to believe from the demo trailer, and the rendering definition is not great enough to get a decent screenshot at height.  That said, I think it could still be useful for making topographical shading layers for the maps.

So, without any forthcoming suggestions considered, I think 3D map making might be out.  I'm not interested in making maps in Maya or similar, as the idea was to use software specialised for map building in order to speed up the process as well as make it look better.  I couldn't be arsed mucking about in a full 3D construction/rendering program.  Partly because I've never really used one before, and it would take time to learn.

I'm going to try for what I gather is pretty similar to the standard method of map construction.  The only philosophy I may have that is different to what I've seen so far is that I am keen to streamline the map making process in order to speed things up.  I intend to collect a palette of photo objects split into categories.  So, each category has a collection of images that are basically tiles that would be placed onto the map canvas, and then worked a little to make it all blend together.  I think the difference is that, whereas the maps I've seen to date are more akin to paintings, this would be closer to collage.  

The upside is that - after compiling the palette, of course - the map making process should fly, and the maps may even look a little bit more "photo-like".  The downside is that they may stray slightly from 100% accurate, as we are working from a set palette, rather than trying to specifically redraw a particular area to exactness.  I don't think it will stray so far as to be a concern.

This is all theory, of course, as I am yet to successfully build a CC map.   Very Happy  And, if any experienced map makers read this, they may feel compelled to inform me that I am entirely deluded in my assumptions.   Wink

#81: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:32 pm
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The video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjcvk4PwaYI


more specifically from about the 1 minut mark here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgShKshDbA&feature=related

#82: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:30 am
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Hoogley wrote (View Post):
So, without any forthcoming suggestions considered, I think 3D map making might be out.  I'm not interested in making maps in Maya or similar, as the idea was to use software specialised for map building in order to speed up the process as well as make it look better.  I couldn't be arsed mucking about in a full 3D construction/rendering program.  Partly because I've never really used one before, and it would take time to learn.

Yeah and bear in mind that the region isn't well known for the 3d aspects of its landscape.  However 3d renders could be handy for buildings and maybe even crops in feilds.  Depending on what you're doing with buildings you'll require a minimum of a couple of dozen I'd guess.  I've never really counted but I suspect CC5 only has about 15-18 used in repition
Hoogley wrote (View Post):

I'm going to try for what I gather is pretty similar to the standard method of map construction.  The only philosophy I may have that is different to what I've seen so far is that I am keen to streamline the map making process in order to speed things up.  I intend to collect a palette of photo objects split into categories.  So, each category has a collection of images that are basically tiles that would be placed onto the map canvas, and then worked a little to make it all blend together.  I think the difference is that, whereas the maps I've seen to date are more akin to paintings, this would be closer to collage.  

One idea I had recently (too late for the recent maps production though unfortunately) was to complete one layered photoshop map with all the named layers and their different attributes.   So from the bottom ascending background, stream bed, water, dirt road/paths, surfaced road, brush, long grass, stone fence, wood fence, hedge, shadows, buildings, floor numbers.  Then once you've completed the first map save it, then remove all textures from all layers and "save as" template.

Then crop to the size of your new map (and at this srtage cropping can be done because the map is featureless) save as new name and start adding textures to appropriate layers.

Hoogley wrote (View Post):

The upside is that - after compiling the palette, of course - the map making process should fly, and the maps may even look a little bit more "photo-like".  The downside is that they may stray slightly from 100% accurate, as we are working from a set palette, rather than trying to specifically redraw a particular area to exactness.  I don't think it will stray so far as to be a concern.

This is all theory, of course, as I am yet to successfully build a CC map.   Very Happy  And, if any experienced map makers read this, they may feel compelled to inform me that I am entirely deluded in my assumptions.   Wink
 

I think you might find 'fly' to be a relative term, there are numerous short cuts both in drawing and coding but a new map will still take a new map maker a respectable length of time.  PM me if you want any help or a few shortcuts.  Unfortuantely I need another theatre to concentrate on now so i can't help you physically

#83: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:18 am
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southern_land wrote (View Post):
 Unfortuantely I need another theatre to concentrate on now so i can't help you physically


WEPSTB.  Western Europe Photo Shop Terrain Burnout.

#84: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:29 am
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schrecken wrote (View Post):
The video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjcvk4PwaYI


more specifically from about the 1 minut mark here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgShKshDbA&feature=related  


That's quite brilliant.  I gather it's a black and white aerial they've coloured.  It looks quite good.  I don't know if you could acheive that over the entire area of this campaign.

Interestingly, the zoom-in from the first video looked just like what I had in my head for what we were talking about breifly in regard to a single map that the entire campaign is played over.

#85: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:58 am
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southern_land - "Yeah and bear in mind that the region isn't well known for the 3d aspects of its landscape."

LMAO.  Very good point.  I'm just toying with the idea at the moment.

southern_land - "Depending on what you're doing with buildings you'll require a minimum of a couple of dozen I'd guess.  I've never really counted but I suspect CC5 only has about 15-18 used in repition"

That sounds bearable; about 20 standard buildings, and I could also build up a number of "special" buildings (church, etc), or alternatively any landmark buildings can be scratch built.

southern_land - "One idea I had recently (too late for the recent maps production though unfortunately) was to complete one layered photoshop map with all the named layers and their different attributes.   So from the bottom ascending background, stream bed, water, dirt road/paths, surfaced road, brush, long grass, stone fence, wood fence, hedge, shadows, buildings, floor numbers.  Then once you've completed the first map save it, then remove all textures from all layers and "save as" template.

Then crop to the size of your new map (and at this srtage cropping can be done because the map is featureless) save as new name and start adding textures to appropriate layers."


Do you mean use each layer as a texture mask, and then draw in the texture for each?  Or are you just referring to the layer structuring?  Either way, I'm a big proponent for templates; it takes away the bulk of the work.  

My mind is locked into thinking in terms of, say, Star Craft, or Far Cry, or any in-game map building software.  So, in that context, I'm thinking "terrain" layers and "object" layers.  The main idea is to delineate which is which.  I figure that anything which can just be square tiled should be a Terrain Layer, and anything which needs placement & alignment is an Object.  So, for example:

Build a photoshop file at the max resolution for tLD maps (4800x4800);
Create a layer bank like, say:
/Terrain + /Earth + Rock, Gravel, Dirt, Mud; + /Water + Muddy, Clear, White; + /Grass + Brush, Dry, Green, Long; etc
/Objects + /Road + /Track, /Dual Tracks, /Dirt, /Semi-sealed, /Sealed; + /Buildings + /House + /Frame, /Roof, Floors + /Small Wood +/Frame, /Roof, Floors , /Large Wood + /Frame, /Roof, Floors, /Small Brick + /Frame, /Roof, Floors, /Large Brick + /Frame, /Roof, Floors; + /Crops + /Cabbages, /Wheat, /Barley, /Low GI Non-Pesticide Grain, etc.  You get the idea.

Each Terrain Layer is composed of tiling each texture to fill the entire map space, and you use it as a layer mask to draw in each texture.  Each Object Layer has a single instance of each object, and you copy the layers to add extra objects.  So, you basically set this up once - which will take bloody forever - and then you have a photoshop map template that... well, hell, anybody could use, I guess.  Most importantly, I could use the same template to make all the maps I need.

Again, I've never created a map before, so this is pure theory.  And, it only addresses the imagery of a battle map; it's not a solution for coding.

Thoughts, southern_land?  Or anybody with experience, for that matter?

#86: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:18 am
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I've started to do some research on the Jerrys during Market Garden, and I found this page with a brief description of the battle, info regarding Royal Engineers during the operation and a small hand drawn map of the area around the bridge itself...

http://www.remuseum.org.uk/campaign/rem_campaign_market-garden.htm

#87: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:47 am
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Here's an example using the PS map making template I'm working on.  Just something simple: blue water, sand, sparse grass, medium grass, full grass.  All are preset layers that you just use the layer mask to paint on the textures with a brush.  No mucking about; just straight in and texture.

Verdict?



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#88: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:25 pm
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More experimentation with the template.  I think I've got the muddy water down now.  There's a bit of an art to getting the edges to look like wash, but it's still relatively simple.

There's a flaw in the bridge surface tile; can anyone see it?  :]



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#89: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:46 pm
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Had you never done any maps before?!?
-BS!  Wink

Anyway, damn good job so-far. Think it can get really good in the end.  Smile

#90: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:57 pm
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Had you never done any maps before?!?
-BS!  Wink

Anyway, damn good job so-far. Think it can get really good in the end.  Smile


LMAO.  Nope.  I'm an artist, but I've only tried once before to make a map (for this mod, actually), and it was utter crap.  I'd decided it was better to get someone experienced to do it, but failing that... here I am learning a new skill.  ;]

#91: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:49 pm
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Those are without a doubt the best first attempts at drawing CC maps ever! I amazed about how well you have managed to draw a typical river bank. The transition from bank to grass field is spot on and the grass texture is also just about perfect. Is it one of Dodam's?. Point of note: river breakwaters are constructed of heavy rock and can be covered with vegetation.
Anyway, with your skills you could have this mod finished within 2 years  Smile

#92: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:39 pm
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Nice work Hoogs, keep it up mate.

Bridge tile appears repetative if thats what you mean.  Use the clone tool to blur from a cleaner area of the pavement if you are concerned about it that is, otherwise, great detail.

#93: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: CSO_Talorgan PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:32 pm
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Hoogley wrote (View Post):
Verdict?


Superb!

Hoogley wrote (View Post):
There's a flaw in the bridge surface tile; can anyone see it?  :]


Either the repetition of the rectangular segments or the lack of a structure to cast such shadows on the water?

#94: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:41 pm
    —
Thanks a lot for the compliments.  

Seriously though, when I'm finished with this template (which will have to be just for basic Western Front maps for now), I'll find a way to upload it - it's very easily going to be over a gigbyte! - and I'd encourage anybody to give it a go.  Ignoring the incomplete bridge for the moment, everything else was very simply brushed on using a layer mask.  There isn't really any fancy brush techniques going on here.  The waters edge is probably the hardest thing to do; I used a standard size 64 circular diffused edge brush @ 15% pressure to slowly brush in the waters edge so it had a little bit of transparency to show through the sand.  But, the "lapping water" effect on the edge is not brushed; it's a layer effect.  So, like I said, what I've shown so far required very little artistic ability; the hard part is compiling the photoshop template.  Actually, I'll amend that statement; certain "landmark" objects will probably have to be scratch built, as I can't account for everything in the template.  But, that said, I'm hoping it will firstly get people who wouldn't make maps to give it a go, and also hopefully provide a tool for experienced map makers to speed things up a bit.  We'll see if I can live up to my own hype!

I've still got a bit to do yet; I have a number of Terrain Layers left to do, and I haven't made any Object Layers yet.  

The textures are all freshly collected from the interweb.  I'm trying to hand select textures that will blend well together.

The bridge map image is a quick "trace over" of a google map of present day Nijmegen Bridge.  Seriously, ignore the bridge; it's a quick fill in.  Although, I quite like my shadow.

I think I made too much of a big deal about the bridge flaw.  It's a small thing; the right edge is an inverted copy of the left, so if you compare the shading of the edging closely you'll start to realise that it looks wrong.

#95: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:31 am
    —
very nice looking maps

#96: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: papa_whisky PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:27 am
    —
Go Hoogley go! Smile

#97: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:29 am
    —
Looks great!  Can't wait to download and play around with the PSD template!
Great work, Hoogley!

#98: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:28 pm
    —
Do you guys know how unbelievingly hard it is to find intel on German forces during OMG?!?  Shocked

-At least when you leave the Arnhem-area and don't looking for armoured units (damn, there are peps out there that have listed every vehicle in SS Pz.Aufklär. Abt. 9 and the 107th armoured brigade...) I have the Ryan and Kershaw books, think I'm going to order the Osprey book "Arnhem 1944: Operation Market Garden" too and I have found a handful of internet pages and forums as well (among them Polemarchos post here: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1506...)
 
Anyone got some tips, ideas or intel, just send me a PM or something, any help is good ATM.  Crying or Very sad

#99: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:43 am
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
Do you guys know how unbelievingly hard it is to find intel on German forces during OMG?!?  Shocked

-At least when you leave the Arnhem-area and don't looking for armoured units (damn, there are peps out there that have listed every vehicle in SS Pz.Aufklär. Abt. 9 and the 107th armoured brigade...) I have the Ryan and Kershaw books, think I'm going to order the Osprey book "Arnhem 1944: Operation Market Garden" too and I have found a handful of internet pages and forums as well (among them Polemarchos post here: http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1506...)
 
Anyone got some tips, ideas or intel, just send me a PM or something, any help is good ATM.  Crying or Very sad


Ahhh, 7A_Woulf.  Welcome to my hell.  Actually, it's our shared hell now.   Mr. Green  Glad you enlisted?

#100: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:53 am
    —
Question - Has anybody ever tried giving a squad more than one crewed weapon?  What happened?  Did the engine deal with it, or will it freak out?

The reason for asking is that I have at least one squad type that has a Bren and 2x PIATs, so I'm wondering if there's a way to allow all three weapons to be picked up by another team member if the carrier goes down.

#101: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:24 am
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):
Question - Has anybody ever tried giving a squad more than one crewed weapon?  What happened?  Did the engine deal with it, or will it freak out?

The reason for asking is that I have at least one squad type that has a Bren and 2x PIATs, so I'm wondering if there's a way to allow all three weapons to be picked up by another team member if the carrier goes down.


AFAIK the engine will handle them fine.
Squads with multiple crewed weapons are commonly used in VetMods.

#102: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:05 am
    —
Quick example of a road.  The camber lighting and edge shading is all layer effects.  

Still not 100%, but just getting this far was bloody painful.



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#103: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:19 am
    —
Well if a x-wife and two teenage daughters didn't give me enough grey hairs, this will help them on the way...  Wink  (But it's fun as hell anyway!)

But your road...  Rolling Eyes Don't want to nag, but it kind of looks like a stream with slopes.  Confused Is it possible to create some effects to 'raise' the embankment? -Just my reflection.

#104: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: VonBirkby PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:06 pm
    —
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm for full strength Battlion organistaion and equipment tables and http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Siegfried/Siegfried%20Line/siegfried-ch06.htm for some strenght for German units in Holland

#105: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:22 pm
    —
@ Woulf : If you don't know these sources you have not tried hard enough : http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/frames.htm   Wink   . You'll find orders of battle for the Germans too.
German Kriegstagebuch LXXXVIII corps : http://maddog.gionpeters.com/welcome.html . Many useful downloads of microfilmed war diaries. I used some of these for my unit research for Battle of the Scheldt but these files I think are particularly useful for researching Market Garden. It's going to take you a lot of time to read all these files!
Sturmpanzer.com: http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1 . Click "Document Section" for many of the same files as the aforementioned website but it has also other information to offer.
Don't buy too much literature before going through this first hand information first.

Happy researching !

#106: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:48 pm
    —
@ Hoogley: perhaps useful for rooftextures, roads, general stuff: check this website with 1940's colour photos: http://hustinx.x-cago.com/hustinx/index.do  . It has galleries of colour photos shot during the 1930's and '40's by Alphons Hustinx who was an adventurous photographer and cinematographer and an early adaptor of colour film. The site is entirely in Dutch but for pics of The Netherlands click 'Nederland' and select the province of choice . "Gelderland" is where Nijmegen and Arnhem are situated. I own a book with his photos and might be tempted to scan one or two if you are looking for something specific.

#107: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: DarkScipio PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:04 pm
    —
Thanks so much for your work an patience.

It looks very very good.

#108: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:15 am
    —
squadleader_id wrote (View Post):
Hoogley wrote (View Post):
Question - Has anybody ever tried giving a squad more than one crewed weapon?  What happened?  Did the engine deal with it, or will it freak out?

The reason for asking is that I have at least one squad type that has a Bren and 2x PIATs, so I'm wondering if there's a way to allow all three weapons to be picked up by another team member if the carrier goes down.


AFAIK the engine will handle them fine.
Squads with multiple crewed weapons are commonly used in VetMods.


yeah pretty sure the Englander!!! mod for Cc3 had two MGs and even a Pak and an MG in the single squad

#109: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:27 am
    —
Pete - Finding out the upper tier formations is not the issue.  It's actually finding the tables of organisation and equipment that's the problem.  I.e., all of the data you need to work out what squad level units and armaments to use.  The Third Reich army made more TOEs than possibly any other army in existence; they changed unit makeups like people change underwear.  That makes for a very fluid military organisation, but hard for people trying to work it all out retrospectively.  Plus there's the problem that the Germans during OMG were using whatever units they could muster, split up into irregular formations and swapped around between different KGs/Divs, and they were seriously undermanned and/or equipped.

For example, from what I've gleaned, The 9th SS Panzer Divison only appear to have had around 120 men or so in the Panzer Regiment, and as far as I can find, only 3 PzKw V and 2 Flak PzKw IV tanks.  Also, the 19th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment appears to only have one operational battalion; Battalion I (Armoured) with 300 men.  So, the 9th are given a Werkstatt unit of about 100 men, and a Shiffsturm unit of about 100 men, I assume to make up for this lack of man and tank power.  Then, the 9th Division send their recon battalion off to defent Nijmegen bridge (effectively loosing them and creating a new KG in the process), so the 10th SS Div give the 9th SS Div their armoured recon battalion to make up for the loss, probably because the 9th were so comparably low in armoured vehicles.  Then, the 9th SS Recon Battalion try to hook back up with the 9th Div, only to get pummeled on the bridge, so I gather the 10th never got their recon battalion back.  And that's just one division out of about twenty involved.

It's painful.  Shocked

VonBirkby - Now, that is really weird.  I went back to bayonettestrength last week after a five year hiatus to find that I couldn't find the armoured formations information... and yet, here it's all back again... I think I must have been rendered temporarily stupid for a spell there.  Embarassed   I also agree that this is a very awesome source of TOE and OOB information.

7A_Woulf - Hey, man, don't be knocking my road!  It's not that ba... well... um... oh... yeah, you're right.  The road thing is working out harder than I would have thought.  The problem is that using an aerial photo of a road as an object just has too many limitations.  So, I thought that if I could work out how to make asphalt/bitumen a texture layer, then it would work out better.  But, the problem is that as soon as you start getting into layer effects, you've got to be very careful otherwise it's easy for everything to end up looking naff.

I'll keep at it.


Last edited by Hoogley on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

#110: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:43 am
    —
@ Pete and Hoogly

Kershaws book is good, I can find most info down to battalion level in it and for the more researched areas (as Arnhem) the number of men in each unit, so sometime today I'll have the BGs and general disposition of the done for the first day of gaming. The general problem are the KstN (TOE) and OOB of the beaten Germans in the area and the strength of some less famous units. (Two examples: Son bridge was defended by a “an experienced kampfgruppe from Hermann Goering training and replacement Div.” and a number Flak 88. There were two march-battalions sent against the 101st from a FJ training deposit at s'Hertogenboch (possibly the 'HG' again) during the first day, but I haven't any info on their strength or what happened to them later in the battle... Rolling Eyes )

But thanks for the links anyway guys, some were new, some were old favourites. And even if they maybe don't help me now (don't know that yet) it's always fun to have access to that kind of info.  Cool


Last edited by 7A_Woulf on Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

#111: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:11 am
    —
Ok, how about this one?  Again, the raised edging effect is all layer effects, so nobody needs to have art skills other than how to paint a line.

Better?

I hope so, 'cause this wasn't easy to get.   Rolling Eyes



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#112: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Priapus PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:41 pm
    —
Looking good hoogley

#113: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:17 am
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):
Ok, how about this one?  Again, the raised edging effect is all layer effects, so nobody needs to have art skills other than how to paint a line.

Better?

I hope so, 'cause this wasn't easy to get.   Rolling Eyes


try layer style    inner glow  10-15px size  black normal blend and hit it with some noise then fiddle with the opacity.  helps give the surfaced roads a sense of wear

#114: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:28 am
    —
Thanks for the links Pete, really interesting!

As you said a lot to read, and I haven't been speaking or reading German the last 18 years...  Rolling Eyes

#115: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:41 pm
    —
You're welcome.
You might already know this site with German symbols explained: http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_43.html .
And don't forget to download the tables of organization from Sturmpanzer (German K.St.N.)  Wink

#116: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:14 pm
    —
Ok, question for those with knowledge:

Does anybody know if the M1919A6 replaced the M1919A4s or the BARs in the US para's organisational and equipment tables?

Cheers.

#117: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:55 pm
    —
The M1919A6 was supposed to replace the A4, but the most gunners didn't like it and rebuilt their A6's to become like their old A4, here's a short link:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

During Normandy most AB squads (not glider) had MG's as squad weapon, but during OMG they had figured out a system to jump with the BAR, so they used it as squad-weapon to some level. Don't have any exact numbers of the TO&E though, just know the general discussion since I looked into Normandy.

Cheers

#118: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:59 pm
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
The M1919A6 was supposed to replace the A4, but the most gunners didn't like it and rebuilt their A6's to become like their old A4, here's a short link:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

During Normandy most AB squads (not glider) had MG's as squad weapon, but during OMG they had figured out a system to jump with the BAR, so they used it as squad-weapon to some level. Don't have any exact numbers of the TO&E though, just know the general discussion since I looked into Normandy.

Cheers


Hey, 7A.  I managed to find a reference to BARs on that website, but he says they didn't figure out how to jump with them until after the war.  Is there a contradicting comment somewhere else on his site?   Also, I noticed he seems a little sensitive on the topic of BARs:

"note: The Browning Automatic Rifle (B.A.R.) was not issued to WW2 paratroopers because it was considered too awkward to jump with. It was not listed on the TO&E for Parachute Infantry rifle companies. The weapon weighs about 20 lb and is four feet long and cannot be broken down for jumping purposes. This is why squad tactics centered around the LMG (dropped in bundles) instead. The B.A.R. was an effective and devastating weapon and immediately after WW2, the 82nd and 11th Airborne Divisions incorporated them into their TO&Es and devised a method of jumping with them fully-assembled, and strapped alongside the parachutist's leg, muzzle down.

PLEASE STOP ASKING ABOUT B.A.R.s ON THE FORUM".  


:lol:

Hoogs.

#119: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:13 pm
    —
Sorry mate, was looking into Normandy, so I made the usual mistake and didn't bookmark the site about BAR's during OMG.  Mad

But start your search from here:

http://triggertimeforum.yuku.com/reply/23051/t/327th-photos-showing-B-A-R.html#reply-23051
 
Guess you can find the answer there (somewhere...)  Rolling Eyes

#120: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:56 pm
    —
"In Market Garden and at Bastogne, more and more BARs appeared in the PIR companies, but not in a
organized TO&E standard method of issue. They were mostly swiped, salvaged or traded from other units.
Nor was a safe method developed by the time of the 101st's last WW2 combat jump in Market-Garden, for
jumping with a BAR-you can bet most if not all of them came-in via equipment bundles or in gliders.
I DO have photos of 11th ABD troopers jumping practice jumps with BARs after WW2 ended but that was
a technique developed later.
"  - Again, mostly concurs with the previous comment.

"Lt. Elmer Brandenberger( B/502), in a letter from 1962 describes in his post jump experience . In it he talks about come a cross one of his bundles and arming himself with a B.A.R. I am not sure why a PIR would have had the B.A.R. but one of the company missions was to secure DZ -A. I speculate that the BAR's were additional firepower in that job hence why it was in a drop bundle. So there is evidence that some of the PIR's did have BAR's but did not jump them on their person... Paul" - Contradiction.

I don't know.  I gather the hot contention is that all official sources state that paratroopers didn't use BARs, but a lot of personal accounts and such suggest they did.  This looks from the surface like one of those "Apple vs Microsoft" debates: destined for eternal argument.  My personal take is this: it seems clear they didn't officially get equipped with BARs, but probably a number of guys/units either got their hands on them and had them dropped in equipment drops, had modified BARs they carried on person, or picked them up after dropping (maybe from the Glider Regiment guys?).

So, to work this out in game terms, you could do one of two things: forget about it and stick to official TOE reports, or mix them up so most gun teams have A4s and some have BARs.  The second resolution means having to create an extra unit, though.

What do you guys think?

P.S.  I'm on holidays down to Melbourne for a week with the family, so I probably won't get much time online.  Back late on the 3rd of July (EST +10).

Update on Progress: 7A_Woulf is doing an amazing job unravelling the German unit movements for the campaign - and consuming a lot of personal time in the process - and ronson is currently compiling an allied units/soldiers list to compare against my original compositions.  So, from a data front, we are moving towards a final composition of CC data files.

I am still working on the map creator, but I'll obviously have to pause for a week.

Talk later.  Got to go.

#121: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:27 am
    —
If you have the FP-space for it, go for some teams with BARs and/or A4s.
-That's my humble opinion  Cool

And personal time? -Well, I'm 'between jobs', had some plans for a OMG mod six months ago, like to sort these type of things out and got an excuse to order some new books for 500+ SEK. Can it get much better?!?  Razz

Enjoy your holiday Hoogley, cya

#122: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:29 am
    —
Ok, so it's been a while for updates, and a bit has happened in that time.

Firstly, LSA is out.  Did I blink?!  

Bought it.  Playing it.  Love it.  Adds a lot of features that are specific to the needs of this operation.

So, what do we do?

Well, 7A_Woulf, ronson, and myself have discussed that, and it was a pretty easy answer: keep going.
7A is keen to do the Germans his way; ronson has some really great things happening with the British lists; I want to complete the artistic design and finish this Photoshop Map Painting Template file I'm trying to do.

At the moment I'm re-doing the Arnhem Bridge bgm image from LSA - not because I don't like it, mind, but because "tracing" is the easiest way to work through the template and iron everything out.  If I'm going to trace, might as well trace a map we intend to use.

7A and ronson are studiously researching through the axis and allies and working out the BG and unit tables.  We'll post some info on the development of these lists as soon as there's enough to post.

In the end, this may end up being a "tweak" mod for LSA rather than the originally proposed full TLD mod.  This is yet to be officially decided.  Maybe we could do both; not sure.  I intend to bulldoze through LSA to the end of the GC, so I'll know by then what I would change (req' point costing is already on that list).  :D

Hoogs.

#123: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Andreus PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:32 am
    —
I'm glad to "hear" that. From the screens you've posted, your mod looks amazing...
Keep it up!

#124: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:45 am
    —
Glad to hear the mod is still moving along...good luck!
Looking forward to 'taste' your PSD map templates too!

#125: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: golani_2 PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:14 pm
    —
I'm actually glad the game was released this soon before your mod, gives you a great base and a huge head start to get down to the real business and have enough energy to do so right.

Like getting rid of the awful point system... Razz

#126: Map Template Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:10 am
    —
Update on the PSD map template - It all works great until you get into urban/structural details.  I'm "tracing" the Arnhem Bridge map (Southern_Land's map?) as a trial.  All of the grass, dirt, roads/asphalt, footpaths, etc are pretty easy to accomplish and are looking ok (the grass, earth and water are the most successful).  

The fiddly bits like the little stairway on the southern end of the bridge, the cobbled footpath through the park at the north end of the bridge, and all of those bits... proving less successful.  These are the kinds of elements where it would be easier to "build" an object and then just place it, rather than using terrain layering to "paint" them in.  However, the problem is always going to be that if you make preset object, they may not match the specificity of the aerial image you're trying to recreate.  

I've also started to realise that the psd file is HUGE - about 1GB currently @ 4800 x 4800 max resolution, and I'm not even finished yet.  This is because each layer is a full image texture with a layer mask attached.  I think that all of the objects - houses, cars, hedges, cows, etc - will have to be seperate image files dropped in a folder alongside the psd file.  That way you can just import the objects you require instead of starting out with a file 10GB in size and filled with heaps of unneeded objects.

I haven't even started houses yet.

The current terrain layer/folder list is something like this:
Water (Small Body) - Clear (Blue), Muddy (Brown)
Man Made - Asphalt, Concrete, Rock (Piled), Dirt Track, Cobble, Brick, Hex Tiles, Herringbone Tiles
Water (Large Body) - Clear (Blue), Muddy (Brown)
Ground Cover - Grass (Full), Grass (Medium), Grass (Sparse)
Earth - Sand (Patterned), Sand (Smooth), Dirt (Wet), Dirt (Dry), Rocky Dirt (Wet), Rock Dirt (Dry), Pebbles (Brown), Pebbles (Blue), Bedrock

Or something close to that, anyway - I'm not near the file at the moment.

All of these are painted in using standard PS brushes so far.  I'll have to write an accompanying pdf Tutorial for brush guides, etc.

Crops will probably be objects so you can align them how you want, which is why they don't show in the terrain layers.

I'll have to post an image of the map in progress I guess, but there's not much to show at the moment.

#127: Map Template in the Works Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:11 pm
    —
Ok, so this shows a test work in progress with the map template.  In the end, there's still going to be a lot of construction involved in creating a map.  Sorry, guys, but in copying out the Arnhem Bridge map from LSA, I'm quickly coming to realise that there's only so much that a template and pre-constructed objects can do.  I quickly ended up chopping, copying, and moving terrain layers around on the fly to suit my needs at the time.  Not that that's a bad thing, but it just means you'll still need a bit of Photoshop nous.

What you can see of the bridge is very heavily painted in.  In making the railing for the bridge, I had to duplicate my "concrete" layer and then create a new layer mask to draw it in.  I also had to make a "brightness/contrast" adjustment layer to make it stand out a little from the walkway.  There's not a lot of layer effects being utilised for the shadows; they're all painted in.  Same goes for the topographic rise for the road - all painted in.  The stairs are created by painted in multiple shadow layers to get the shadow overlay look.  I'll probably put an "outer shadow" effect on the bridge shadow to defocus the edges a little.

I am super happy with the water's edge layer effect.  That is one thing you won't have to waste time trying to paint in at least.  It's just done by creating an "outer glow" effect with a heavily jagged and heavily tweaked "quality contour" to get the defined edge and then translucency for the bank show-through.  When painting water in, all you need to do is just play a little with painting/erasing with a soft edged brush at about 10-25% opacity around the shores, and you'll quickly pick up the show through effect.  There's a little bit of a trick to attaining the gradient like look, but it's not too difficult.

The earth around the crops is maybe a little red.  I know crop soil will be different to the surrounding soil, as it is heavily fertilised and worked, but I think this might be a little extreme.  The crops are actually the only "object" I've made so far.  Still a little way from finishing a usable house yet.

Thoughts and opinions?



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#128: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:43 pm
    —
The actual current list of starting layers in the template is as follows:

Shading/Highlights - Topography
Objects - (Added in as needed)
Terrain - Water (Small Body) - Mud Puddle
                                        - Clear Puddle
          - Man Made - Concrete
                            - Wood Chips (may not make the final cut)
                            - Piled Rock
                            - Tile - Hexagon (also dubious)
                            - Tile - Herringbone
                            - Brick (currently only one colour - see Gravel below)
                            - Cobble
                            - Asphalt/Bitumen
                            - Dirt Track
          - Water (Large Body) - Blue River
                                          - Dirty River
                                          (ocean will probably make an appearance eventually)
          - Ground Cover - Grass - Verdant
                                            - Patchy
                                            - Rocky (dubious)
                                            - Sparse
                                 - Earth - Sand - Patterned
                                                        - Smooth
                                             - Mud - Wet
                                                       - Dry
                                             - Dirt - Smooth Wet
                                                      - Smooth Dry
                                                      - Rocky Wet
                                                      - Rocky Dry
                                             - Gravel - Tan
                                                          - Blue (it may be that I only include one colour for any layer and you can just add an adjustment layer to create variations when needed)
                                             - Rock - Sandstone
                                                        - Bedrock

I'm sure it's not over yet...

#129: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:47 pm
    —
Looking good, Hoogley! *drool*
Combine that template you're working on with library of pastable objects and buildings...and we should finally have a CC map maker tool!

#130: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:24 pm
    —
Does anybody know if you can have a "roof" tile over an LSA "bridge" terrain area/object?  I think this question may be for Southern_Land or somebody else from the S3T dev' team.

The reason I ask is that I've drawn in the top of Arnhem bridge.  Problem is, you don't want troops walking over it, so I'm trying to figure out if I can add it as a "roof" to the bridge.  The next problem is that I've never coded a map before, so I don't know if that's possible or not.  Plus, there's the whole issue with exploded images and the like... hmmmm.

Anyone clued in?

I also realised too late that my geometry is wrong.  Damn it.  But, there is no god-damned way I am redrawing that bridge.  Mad



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#131: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:11 pm
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):
Does anybody know if you can have a "roof" tile over an LSA "bridge" terrain area/object?  I think this question may be for Southern_Land or somebody else from the S3T dev' team.

The reason I ask is that I've drawn in the top of Arnhem bridge.  Problem is, you don't want troops walking over it, so I'm trying to figure out if I can add it as a "roof" to the bridge.  The next problem is that I've never coded a map before, so I don't know if that's possible or not.  Plus, there's the whole issue with exploded images and the like... hmmmm.

Anyone clued in?



There are maps in CC5 mods (I only remember specifically GJS) that feature under bridge element...with the bridge (or railway arch) graphics set as roofs.  Troops/vehicles enter of pass through "under bridge" instead of on the bridge.
So putting a roof over Arnhem bridge should not be a problem.

#132: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:07 pm
    —
What are the top of bridges coded as now? I mean, since they disappear/shows when you Ctrl+T to remove/show trees?

In my eyes, the problem with the top of the bridges as roofs is that they are automatically removed when you enter the bridge and personally I prefer to have the 'nicer-for-the-eye' impression when the troops move under the top...

#133: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:59 am
    —
7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):
What are the top of bridges coded as now? I mean, since they disappear/shows when you Ctrl+T to remove/show trees?

In my eyes, the problem with the top of the bridges as roofs is that they are automatically removed when you enter the bridge and personally I prefer to have the 'nicer-for-the-eye' impression when the troops move under the top...


Eh, that's what I get for turning off the trees from the beginning.  I didn't even realise all of these bridges had tops to them.  Fool.  *shaking my head in shame*

#134: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:17 am
    —
It's a new feature ...Bridge O/H structures come in a new file for CC called  \graphics\Bridges.azp

This way teams can pass under Overhead structures

#135: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:21 am
    —
Cool   Smile

It's a pleasure pointing out mistakes...  Wink

-And even a greater pleasure giving a helping hand.  Cool

#136: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:04 pm
    —
Strat map has been re-orientated to N-S instead of E-W, and expanded to fit the new LSA size.  I still have to tidy up the text and stuff before I can post any images.

The first draft for battle zones (which is now about the third or fourth draft overall) has been completed using operational reference maps and historical battle information.  There are very few arbitrary map placements, and I didn't have to compromise to any difficult degree.

The battle map zone markers are still going to be the small square battle zone locators, rather than large connecting map zones.  I'm hoping this will stop my map from ending up as green and red tiles.

I've done a simple check (an in-game print screen of BG icons overlaid over the strat map) and it looks like the battlegroup icon spacing is going to work out without too much cramping or gameplay interfering overlaps.  It will be busy in some places (Arnhem is one of them), but it should still work fine.  So, the only distortion I've made of the map is a slight stretching E-W to maximise the usable stratmap area, but other than that it's all geographically accurate.

I'm setting up a dev' site for the three of us to more easily integrate our workflow and consolidate the data as we complete it.  As soon as it's closer to running I'll post a link.

#137: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:52 pm
    —
This is close to finished, I think.  (I hope)

Last edited by Hoogley on Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total


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#138: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Andreus PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:14 am
    —
Damn Hoogley, this is one sexy strat map for sure!
Can't wait for the complete mod!

#139: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:48 am
    —
I couldn't upload the full sized version.  A full sized version of the strategic map is here.

#140: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:33 am
    —
Excellent stuff mate!!

#141: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:37 pm
    —
Now that will make a great MMCC3 map... hmmm..ABTFMMCC3????

#142: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:23 pm
    —
Aaaargghhh!  Acronym meltdown!  :lol:

Actually, I just realised that "Market Garden" and "Monty's Gamble" have the same initials.

Hmmmm... a private joke by Eisenhower maybe?

Probably not.  Still... Operation: Monty's Gamble ... I'm really warming to that title.  

Could just be me though.  Confused

#143: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:27 pm
    —
Yes?  No?


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#144: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:29 pm
    —
Nice  Cool

#145: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:49 pm
    —
Strat Map looks amazing!
Glad to see that this mod is moving along nicely...well done!

#146: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Ivan_Zaitzev PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:33 am
    —
Strat Map looks awesome indeed!
And I like the name too.  Laughing

#147: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:42 am
    —
I forgot to mention; whilst researching this mod I came across the Michael Jackson monument at the MacDonald's in Best...

... is all of the Netherlands huge MJ fans?  Or is it just the franchisee of the MacDonald's in Best?

#148: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schreckenLocation: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:58 am
    —
who's michael jacksonand what's a macdonalds?

#149: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:42 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
who's michael jacksonand what's a macdonalds?


hahahahaha  

Looks great Hoogley

#150: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:46 am
    —
schrecken wrote (View Post):
who's michael jacksonand what's a macdonalds?


LMAO

You need to get out more!  

Actually, no, you don't.  Best you stay sheltered from such things.

#151: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:00 am
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):
I forgot to mention; whilst researching this mod I came across the Michael Jackson monument at the MacDonald's in Best...

... is all of the Netherlands huge MJ fans?  Or is it just the franchisee of the MacDonald's in Best?


Neverland mate, Neverland.  Thats why it was called OMG.......

#152: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Andreus PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:52 pm
    —
Well, actually Michael Jackson was great, not all the bullshit they're throwing around now... Buuuut ehm... Amazing strat map, again, Hoogley  Very Happy

#153: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:17 am
    —
Jesus.  I think I just worked out another reason to call it "the Island".

I'm looking at Google maps, at a section of road north of Elst where there are canals all over the place, and particularly two running alongside the road and isolating it from the fields.  It is almost literally an island.

If that landscape is the same as it was back in '44, no wonder the tanks had so much trouble.

I'm interested; how much research and intel' was put into the landscape and how it might effect the operation?  Is this another case like the Normandy boccage, where the allies just didn't think to consider ground level tactical realities, and instead just had a grand, wide zoom strategic plan?

Anyway...

I need some assistance if anyone can help: either, a) can anyone tell me a valid name for the map zone I've placed south of Arnhem on the Island, where the (name unknown) canal crosses the Corridor?  Or, b) is there a more specific location on the road where I should be placing this map zone, or a specific battle spot that I should be focusing on here?

I just put the map there because I figured it looked like a great place for an attack.  I don't know if the Germans in 1944 agreed with me or not.  That said, if this aerial from Google Maps is anything like it was back then, and nobody has any better suggestions, I am going to use this spot for a map.  It looks like it would be a good map to play.  Hard.  

I haven't looked at what map represent this area in LSA.

I am assuming the two lane highway is a new addition?  Anyone have access to wartime aerial photos or maps or such for this area?  WatWasWaar doesn't seem to have anything; it appears the only intel' photos they've got were from direct line recon passes over Arnhem, Nijmegen, and Eindhoven.  That may be all there is.

Cheers.


Last edited by Hoogley on Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total

#154: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:32 am
    —
Just looking at the WatWasWaar map: is that called the "Linge canal"?

#155: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: PeteLocation: Nijmegen, Netherlands PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:36 pm
    —
Hey Hoogley,

The name "The Island" was given by the Allies and corresponds with what in Holland is called "De Betuwe" and "Lingewaard" (east of Elst). The area is enclosed by the rivers Waal, Nederrijn and the canal connecting the two. The "Linge" runs through these areas, which must be the canal you are referring to.

#156: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:57 pm
    —
Was there any major action around where the Linge crossed the highway?

Again, check the link above to Google maps.  It looks like a great place for a battle, but I just want to make sure it's worth including historically, as I have to be frugal with map zones.

#157: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:09 pm
    —
Well, I added values to FPools for the 1st BG, being the 501 PIR, to a total of 26 team entries just to see if LSA would crash.

It didn't. In fact, everything worked fine.

I was worried that the fact there are negative value fillers up to a total of 25 per BG listing meant that was the maximum listings per BG. I assume the actual case is that each BG must have at least 25 listings to avoid engine crash. Who really cares... you can go above 25 and that's all that matters. I assume that 64 entries is the maxout point, which must be kept in consideration.

This is a fantastic result!

Huge variety of German units for OMG? Hell yes.

PS: If anybody has info regarding the above query about map placement, and feels compelled to comment, please do.

#158: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:32 pm
    —
Nice news on the FP's!

Haven't got (back) to the map in my readings, but looking at it it's a great place and it's on the road to Arnhem and it might be a valid map if the Allied player manage to follow through on the original plan.   Confused

But why the 'De Horst' map? All German attacks (and the US 82nd defence) in this area was at a broad-front. IMHO (unless you have "...a cunning plan, my lord") this map can be better used somewhere else.

Cheers

#159: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:44 pm
    —
I am open to suggestions my friend.

This is far from set in concrete, yet.

#160: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: papa_whisky PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:02 am
    —
I think Buck is the person to ask for aerial photos.

#161: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Dauphin PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:53 am
    —
I believe that this site is valuable
http://library.wur.nl/speccol/aer-phot.html

#162: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:07 am
    —
Just an update:  

Pretty boring stuff at the moment.  We are reviewing and entering data for the guide lists that will shape the eventual data files.  I love data, but even I get tired of it after staring at too many spreadsheets.

Anywho - the working lists, which update instantaneously thanks to the marvel of modern technoloGOOGLEology are all found Here at the OMG mod dev site.

The overall situation is pretty much like this:  
    Allied lists are up to finalising BG, Team, and Force Pool data.  
    Axis data is up to working out the BGs, but the Axis BG, Team, and Force Pool data was always going to take the longest to complete, and will probably be the last thing to be finalised.
    Battle map placements are going through another draft.
 Riveting stuff.
Hoogs out.

#163: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:45 pm
    —
It's done!

The first complete list of my German OOB.
Since I don't have all available sources (and the K.st.N broke my old school-German) you are all free to read it and PM me with comments and corrections.  Cool



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Word file

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#164: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Andreus PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:06 pm
    —
Guys, any news on this?

#165: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:59 am
    —
A slow, but steady, progress. The 'dark side' are producing Allied BG's right now.  Wink

#166: Mod Status Update Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:55 am
    —
Mod Status Update - Well, we've been a little under the radar for a while just working hard on the preliminary lists for the eventual data files.  It's funny how things can seem to not be moving at all when a pile of effort is none the less being fed into the work machine.  However, I am happy to say that there are a couple of milestones worth mentioning.

Firstly, as stated above, 7A_Woulf has completed the first final draft for the Axis BG list; in an astounding time frame, I might add, since I thought this was a pretty tough job to undertake.  Not only did it come quicker than I thought, but he's managed to bring forward a final BG list smaller than the number of spaces left, which was another unexpected achievement.

So, our final Allied BG list will be something akin to this:

1 Bn / 1st Para Bde
2 Bn / 1st Para Bde
3 Bn / 1st Para Bde
1st Airlanding Brigade
4th Parachute Brigade
2nd Household Cavalry
Irish Guards BG
Welsh Guards BG
Coldstream Guards BG
Grenadier Guards BG
231st Infantry Brigade w/ Elements 8th Armoured
151st Infantry Brigade w/ Elements 8th Armoured
69th Infantry Brigade w/ Elements 8th Armoured
214th Infantry Brigade w/ Elements 8th Armoured
130th Infantry Brigade w/ Elements 8th Armoured
129th Infantry Brigade w/ Elements 8th Armoured
42nd Recce Regiment / 12th KRRC Motor Battalion
1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade
1 Battalion / 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment
501st Parachute Infantry Regiment
502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment
506th Parachute Infantry Regiment
327nd Glider Infantry Regiment
504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
1 Company / 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment
505th Parachute Infantry Regiment
508th Parachute Infantry Regiment
325th Glider Infantry Regiment
Princess Irene Motorised Infantry Brigade

And the Axis will be pretty much as below:

III. Btl./Gren. Rgt. 1 'Landstorm Nederland'
KG Brinkmann
I./ Grenadier Regiment 16
6./14. Schiffstamm Abt.
10. Schiffstamm Abt.
Btl. 'Worrowski'
FJ Regiment Von Hoffmann   (Static)
Flak Abteilung 424   (Static)
FlaK Bataillone 18   (Static)
Fliegerhorst Btl. 3
KG Becker
KG Bruhns
KG Eberwein
KG Ewald
KG Fuerstenberg
KG Goebel
KG Greschick
KG Harmel
KG Helle (SS Wacht Btl. 3)
KG Henke    (Static - Nijmegen City)
KG Henke    (Static - Nijmengen Bridge)
KG Hermann
KG Huber
KG Jungwirth
KG Kerutt    (Static - Valkenswaard)
KG Kerutt (Tank ambush)    (Static - Borkel en Shaft)
KG Knaust
KG Knoche
KG Krafft
KG Lippert
KG Reinhold
KG Richter
KG Rink
KG Spinder
KG Stargaard
KG von Allwoerden
Marsch Bataillon Zedlitz
Rail Bridge Garrison    (Static)
Panzer Brigade 107
Speerverband Harzer
Speerverband Son    (Static)
SS Pz.Aufklär. Abt. 9
Stadtkommandant Arnhem    (Static)
V.d.H Regiment (FJ Reg. 6)

And, in fact, I see that this is only 63 Mobile BGs in size, so we've still got one more to add somewhere... hmmmm, anyway, there's too much data for just one post, so this will continue below...

#167: Mod Status Update Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:13 am
    —
... here.

The second milestone, although slightly preemptive, is that ronson has pumped out allied BG team list after BG team list, and I am proud to say that the foundation for the complete allied teams lists is almost done.  There's just the Glider Pilot formations to nail down, but other than that, we're pretty good.

190 odd teams.  No kidding.  See below:

UK Para HQ Bren Gun Carrier
UK Para Company HQ
UK Para Platoon HQ
UK Para Rifle Section
UK Para Rifle Group
UK Para Gun Group
UK Para HQ Defence Section
UK Para Assault Section
UK Para (Recce) Pathfinders
UK Para RE Engineer Section
UK Para RE Assault Engineers
UK Para AT Group
UK Para Lt Mortar Group
UK Para Med Mortar Group
UK Para MMG Group
UK Para Intelligence Sniper
UK Para Jeep
UK Airlanding Company HQ
UK Airlanding Platoon HQ
UK Airlanding HQ Defence Section
UK Airlanding Gun Group
UK Airlanding Rifle Group
UK Airlanding Rifle Section
UK Airlanding RE Assault Engineers
UK Airlanding AT Group
UK Airlanding Section Snipers
UK Airlanding Lt Mortar Group
UK Airlanding Md Mortar Group
UK Airlanding MMG Group
UK Airlanding Lt AT Group
UK Airlanding Hv AT Group
UK Airborne RE Pioneer Section (?)
UK Airborne Hv Mortar Group
UK Airborne Recce MMG Jeep
UK Airborne Recce HQ Jeep
UK Airborne AA Section
UK Airborne Mortar Section
UK Glider Pilot Company HQ
UK Glider Pilot Platoon HQ
UK Glider Pilot Rifle Section
UK Armd Cav Staghound HQ
UK Armd Cav Staghound
UK Armd Cav Daimler Scout Car
UK Armd Cav Daimler Armoured Car
UK Armd Cav AEC Armoured Car
UK Armd Cav Humber Scout Car
UK Armd Cav Half-track
UK Armd Cav Platoon HQ
UK Armd Cav Recce Section
UK Armd Cav AT Group
UK Armd Cav Gun Group
UK Armd Sherman HQ Tank
UK Armd Cromwell HQ Tank
UK Armd Stuart HQ Tank
UK Armd Daimler HQ Scout Car
UK Armd Humber HQ Scout Car
UK Armd Daimler Scout Car
UK Armd Humber Scout Car
UK Armd Stuart Light Tank
UK Armd Sherman Tank
UK Armd Sherman Firefly Tank
UK Armd Cromwell Tank
UK Armd Cromwell CS Tank
UK Armd Challenger Tank
UK Armd Achilles SP AT Gun
UK Armd Sexton SP Artillery
UK Recce Daimler HQ
UK Recce Humber LRC HQ
UK Recce Bren Gun Carrier HQ
UK Recce Daimler Armoured Car
UK Recce Humber Armoured Car
UK Recce Humber LRC
UK Recce Bren Gun Carrier
UK Recce PIAT Carrier
UK Recce Mortar
UK Recce AT Gun
UK Recce Assault Section
UK Recce Halftrack
UK Mot Inf HQ Half-track
UK Mot Inf HQ Bren Gun Carrier
UK Mot Inf Company HQ
UK Mot Inf Platoon HQ
UK Mot Inf Infantry Section
UK Mot Inf AT Group
UK Mot Inf Lt Mortar Group
UK Mot Inf Md Mortar Group
UK Mot Inf Daimler Scout Car
UK Mot Inf White Scout Car
UK Mot Inf Lt AT Gun
UK Mot Inf Bren Gun Carrier
UK Mot Inf Vickers Carrier
UK Mot Inf PIAT Carrier
UK Mot Inf Recce Half Section
UK Mot Inf Recce Section
UK Mot Inf MMG Group
UK Mot Inf Medium Mortar Group
UK Mot Inf Heavy Mortar Group
UK Mot Inf Lt AA Truck
UK Mot Inf Hv AT Gun
UK Mot Inf RE Engineer Section
UK Mot Inf RE Divisional Engineers
UK Mot Inf RE Half-track
UK Mot Inf RE Humber Scout Car
UK Inf HQ Bren Gun Carrier
UK Inf Company HQ
UK Inf Platoon HQ
UK Inf Bren Gun Carrier
UK Inf Wasp Carrier
UK Inf Rifle Group
UK Inf Hv Rifle Group
UK Inf RE Assault Section
UK Inf Gun Group
UK Inf Sniper
UK Inf AT Group
UK Inf Lt Mortar Group
UK Inf Med Mortar Group
UK Inf Lt AT Gun
UK Inf Recce Troops
UK Inf RE Pioneer Section
UK Inf MMG Group
UK Inf Hv Mortar Group
UK Inf 40mm AA Gun
UK Inf Lt AT Gun
UK Inf Hv AT Gun
UK Inf Achilles SP AT Gun
UK Inf Humber Scout Car
UK Inf Daimler Armoured Car
UK Inf Humber Armoured Car
Polish Para Company HQ
Polish Para Platoon HQ
Polish Para Rifle Section
Polish Para Rifle Group
Polish Para Gun Group
Polish Para HQ Defense Section
Polish Para Assault Section
Polish Para Engineer Section
Polish Para Assault Engineers
Polish Para AT Group
Polish Para Lt Mortar Group
Polish Para Med Mortar Group
Polish Para MMG Group
Polish Para Sniper
Dutch Mot Inf Command HQ
Dutch Mot Inf HQ Bren Gun Carrier
Dutch Mot Inf Company HQ
Dutch Mot Inf Platoon HQ
Dutch Mot Inf HQ Defence Section
Dutch Mot Inf Rifle Section
Dutch Mot Inf Lt Mortar Group
Dutch Mot Inf AT Group
Dutch Mot Inf MMG Group
Dutch Mot Inf Md Mortar
Dutch Mot Inf Lt AT Gun
Dutch Mot Inf Recce HQ Carrier
Dutch Mot Inf Recce Company HQ
Dutch Mot Inf Recce Rifle Group
Dutch Mot Inf Daimler Scout Car
Dutch Mot Inf Bren Gun Carrier
Dutch Mot Inf PIAT Carriers
US Para Company HQ
US Para Platoon HQ
US Para Rifle Team
US Para Hv Rifle Team
US Para BAR Rifle Team
US Para Gun Team
US Para BAR Gun Team
US Para Scout Team
US Para Sniper
US Para AT Team
US Para LMG Team
US Para Lt Mortar Team
US Para Md Mortar Team
US Glider Inf Company HQ
US Glider Inf Platoon HQ
US Glider Inf Rifle Team
US Glider Inf Hv Rifle Team
US Glider Inf Gun Team
US Glider Inf Scout Team
US Glider Inf Sniper
US Glider Inf AT Team
US Glider Inf LMG Team
US Glider Inf MMG Team
US Glider Inf Lt Mortar Team
US Glider Inf Md Mortar Team
US Airborne MMG Team
US Airborne Lt AA Gun
US Airborne Lt AT Gun
US Airborne Lt Artillery Gun
US Airborne Engineer Squad

Some may think this excessive, but one thing that irks me about generalised team identifiers is that you loose the sense of exactly which unit type you're fielding into battle.  So, all of our teams quite clearly denote which arm of the armed forces they fall under (thought these names may have to be abbreviated slightly in the final copy) and the Axis forces will do the same.  Plus, we get to have a pretty accurate and broad list of units, which is just fantastic.

I can't wait until we've got the final German list done.  It's going to be MASSIVE. Very Happy

#168: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QMLocation: Australia PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:58 am
    —
Looking good Hooges and team.  Nice.

#169: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Andreus PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:46 pm
    —
Great! amazing stuff...

#170: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:19 am
    —
Just a note on the German BO's; -There will be more of them, those listed are those mentioned in my research. If you want a feeling of them, add those you encounter in 'vanilla' LSA as well...  Cool

#171: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: karlmortarLocation: Falköping,Sweden PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:42 am
    —
Hmmm...I wonder if it is possibly to add ALL of those BGs to LSA?
Also it looks very tempting to steal all those squads as well, but can I even put that much troops in LSA?

Byt the way, nice job Woulf Wink

#172: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:13 pm
    —
That is quite impressive! Looking forward
I really like how you describe the units

#173: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:09 pm
    —
b
karlmortar wrote (View Post):
Hmmm...I wonder if it is possibly to add ALL of those BGs to LSA?
Also it looks very tempting to steal all those squads as well, but can I even put that much troops in LSA?

Byt the way, nice job Woulf Wink


:D This mod is for LSA.  It started as a mod for TLD, which is why this thread is in here, but LSA came out and we shifted across.

You can have 64 mobile and 64 static BGs (1 static per map), up to 64 teams per BG (though you really don't want to try and merge BGs at that stage 'cause 64 is the total max), and from my tests it seems that you can have any number of data in most of the other files - Teams, Weapons, Vehicles...

... hmmm, I just realised that one thing could put a spanner in the works: gadget images.  I don't know how many teams icons you can jam in there.  Might have to double check that and get back to you.

#174: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:54 am
    —
Ahhhh... I've just realised that you can use the same gadget team icon more than once, so it shouldn't be a limiting factor as such.  It just means we have to be smart about icon choice and design.

#175: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:04 am
    —
Answered over at Matrix Forums

squadleader_id wrote:
A quick check via gadgetmunger...

BG Unit Icons limit is 285.
BGUNIT_000.tga to BGUNIT_284.tga.

Weapons Icon limit is 256

"
Very Happy  squadleader_id, you're awesome!

Cool, that's nice work from S3T; lots of room for piccies.  Still, with almost 200 units in the allied list alone... and probably looking at almost twice that in the axis list, what with the rag-tag bundle of German units in OMG... we will still have to be frugal, I think."

#176: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: karlmortarLocation: Falköping,Sweden PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:48 am
    —
Oh bummer, didn't see that! Embarassed

Hmm since you guys are doing such a good job It seems that my pathetic attempt isn't neccensery.
I'll be happy to help out if you guys ned any help Wink

#177: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:00 am
    —
karlmortar wrote (View Post):
Oh bummer, didn't see that! Embarassed

Hmm since you guys are doing such a good job It seems that my pathetic attempt isn't neccensery.
I'll be happy to help out if you guys ned any help Wink


Hey...you should continue with your mod, Karlmortar!
Hoogley and team are working on a total conversion with custom stratmap, other enhancements and goodies.
We need your mod so that we can play with more historical BGs and teams for the stock game from S3T...please continue...

#178: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_WoulfLocation: Sweden PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:01 pm
    —
It's not 'pathetic' Karlmortar! I can only second Squadleader, even I would like realistic troops for the stock game!!  Smile

(But as the German researcher, I would like to use your Möbelwagen and SdKfz 251/21!)

#179: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:29 am
    —
karlmortar - All mods are worthwhile, even Jethro Very Happy .  Keep going, man.  Hell, we were doing an OMG mod for TLD, and then LSA came out (too many abbreviations?)!  Didn't stop us!  Damn the torpedoes!

EDIT: I was inspired to check your mod thread; not only is your mod worthwhile, you're ticking along at an amazing rate!  Great work!

#180: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: karlmortarLocation: Falköping,Sweden PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:02 am
    —
Wow, you guys make me blush Embarassed
Since you have written such kind things I shall continue! Very Happy  

The reason things are going pretty fast is because I get a lot of help solving troubles from the forums and that I can dedicate about 4-5 hours per day to making this mod ( finished school and is unemployed at the moment).

Woulf, you will love playing with those two! They work perfectly excpet that the drilling's ammo is chopping (switching from AP to He and back again after each salvo) and the Möbelwagen's "turret" (the flak gun) MIGHT have the armor of a Pz IV turret! Shocked

Thanks fot the support lads, and I wish you good fortune for your work ahead Wink

#181: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:27 am
    —
Hoorah!  Ok, this is the first draft of the WHOLE Allied teams list, including glider pilots.  All 196 glorious entries of it.  There will probably be some tidy up and error correction to do, but this is how it stands:

1 UK Para HQ Bren Carrier
2 UK Para Company HQ
3 UK Para Platoon HQ
4 UK Para Rifle Section
5 UK Para Rifle Group
6 UK Para Gun Group
7 UK Para HQ Defense Section
8 UK Para Assault Section
9 UK Para (Recce) Pathfinders
10 UK Para RE Engineer Section
11 UK Para RE Assault Engineers
12 UK Para AT Group
13 UK Para Lt Mortar Group
14 UK Para Md Mortar Group
15 UK Para MMG Group
16 UK Para Intelligence Sniper
17 UK Para Jeep
18 UK Airlndg Company HQ
19 UK Airlndg Platoon HQ
20 UK Airlndg HQ Defence Section
21 UK Airlndg Gun Group
22 UK Airlndg Rifle Group
23 UK Airlndg Rifle Section
24 UK Airlndg RE Assault Engineers
25 UK Airlndg AT Group
26 UK Airlndg Section Snipers
27 UK Airlndg Lt Mortar Group
28 UK Airlndg Md Mortar Group
29 UK Airlndg MMG Group
30 UK Airlndg Lt AT Group
31 UK Airlndg Hv AT Group
32 UK Airborne RE Pioneer Section
33 UK Airborne Recce MMG Jeep
34 UK Airborne Recce HQ Jeep
35 UK Airborne AA Section
36 UK Airborne Hv Mortar Section
37 UK Glider Pilot Squadron HQ
38 UK Glider Pilot Flight HQ
39 UK Glider Pilot Rifle Section
40 UK Glider Pilot Rifle Group
41 UK Glider Pilot Gun Group
42 UK Glider Pilot AT Group
43 UK Glider Pilot Lt Mortar Group
44 UK Armd Cav Staghound HQ
45 UK Armd Cav Staghound
46 UK Armd Cav Daimler Scout Car
47 UK Armd Cav Daimler Armd Car
48 UK Armd Cav AEC Armd Car
49 UK Armd Cav Humber Scout Car
50 UK Armd Cav Half-track
51 UK Armd Cav Platoon HQ
52 UK Armd Cav Recce Section
53 UK Armd Cav AT Group
54 UK Armd Cav Gun Group
55 UK Armd Sherman HQ Tank
56 UK Armd Cromwell HQ Tank
57 UK Armd Stuart HQ Tank
58 UK Armd Daimler HQ Scout Car
59 UK Armd Humber HQ Scout Car
60 UK Armd Daimler Scout Car
61 UK Armd Humber Scout Car
62 UK Armd Stuart Light Tank
63 UK Armd Sherman Tank
64 UK Armd Sherman Firefly Tank
65 UK Armd Cromwell Tank
66 UK Armd Cromwell CS Tank
67 UK Armd Challenger Tank
68 UK Armd Achilles SP AT Gun
69 UK Armd Sexton SP Artillery
70 UK Recce Daimler HQ
71 UK Recce Humber LRC HQ
72 UK Recce Bren Carrier HQ
73 UK Recce Daimler Armd Car
74 UK Recce Humber Armd Car
75 UK Recce Humber LRC
76 UK Recce Bren Gun Carrier
77 UK Recce PIAT Carrier
78 UK Recce Mortar
79 UK Recce AT Gun
80 UK Recce Assault Section
81 UK Recce Halftrack
82 UK Mot Inf HQ Half-track
83 UK Mot Inf HQ Bren Carrier
84 UK Mot Inf Company HQ
85 UK Mot Inf Platoon HQ
86 UK Mot Inf Infantry Section
87 UK Mot Inf AT Group
88 UK Mot Inf Lt Mortar Group
89 UK Mot Inf Md Mortar Group
90 UK Mot Inf Daimler Scout Car
91 UK Mot Inf White Scout Car
92 UK Mot Inf Lt AT Gun
93 UK Mot Inf Bren Gun Carrier
94 UK Mot Inf Vickers Carrier
95 UK Mot Inf PIAT Carrier
96 UK Mot Inf Recce Half Section
97 UK Mot Inf Recce Section
98 UK Mot Inf MMG Group
99 UK Mot Inf Md Mortar Group
100 UK Mot Inf Hv Mortar Group
101 UK Mot Inf 40mm AA Truck
102 UK Mot Inf Hv AT Gun
103 UK Mot Inf RE Engineer Section
104 UK Mot Inf RE Div Engineers
105 UK Mot Inf RE Half-track
106 UK Mot Inf RE Humber Scout Car
107 UK Inf HQ Bren Gun Carrier
108 UK Inf Company HQ
109 UK Inf Platoon HQ
110 UK Inf Bren Gun Carrier
111 UK Inf Wasp Carrier
112 UK Inf Rifle Group
113 UK Inf Hv Rifle Group
114 UK Inf RE Assault Section
115 UK Inf Gun Group
116 UK Inf Sniper
117 UK Inf AT Group
118 UK Inf Lt Mortar Group
119 UK Inf Md Mortar Group
120 UK Inf 40mm AA Truck
121 UK Inf Half-track
122 UK Inf Humber LRC
123 UK Inf Recce Bren Carrier
124 UK Inf Recce Assault Section
125 UK Inf Recce Group
126 UK Inf RE Pioneer Section
127 UK Inf MMG Group
128 UK Inf Hv Mortar Group
129 UK Inf 40mm AA Gun
130 UK Inf Lt AT Gun
131 UK Inf Hv AT Gun
132 UK Inf Achilles SP AT Gun
133 UK Inf Humber Scout Car
134 UK Inf Daimler Armoured Car
135 UK Inf Humber Armoured Car
136 Polish Para Company HQ
137 Polish Para Platoon HQ
138 Polish Para Rifle Section
139 Polish Para Rifle Group
140 Polish Para Gun Group
141 Polish Para HQ Defense Section
142 Polish Para Assault Section
143 Polish Para Engineer Section
144 Polish Para Assault Engineers
145 Polish Para AT Group
146 Polish Para Lt Mortar Group
147 Polish Para Md Mortar Group
148 Polish Para MMG Group
149 Polish Para Sniper
150 Dutch Mot Inf Command HQ
151 Dutch Mot Inf HQ Bren Gun Carrier
152 Dutch Mot Inf Company HQ
153 Dutch Mot Inf Platoon HQ
154 Dutch Mot Inf HQ Defence Section
155 Dutch Mot Inf Rifle Section
156 Dutch Mot Inf Lt Mortar Group
157 Dutch Mot Inf AT Group
158 Dutch Mot Inf MMG Group
159 Dutch Mot Inf Md Mortar
160 Dutch Mot Inf Lt AT Gun
161 Dutch Mot Inf Recce HQ Carrier
162 Dutch Mot Inf Recce Company HQ
163 Dutch Mot Inf Recce Rifle Group
164 Dutch Mot Inf Daimler Scout Car
165 Dutch Mot Inf Bren Gun Carrier
166 Dutch Mot Inf PIAT Carriers
167 US Para Company HQ
168 US Para Platoon HQ
169 US Para Rifle Team
170 US Para Hv Rifle Team
171 US Para BAR Rifle Team
172 US Para Gun Team
173 US Para BAR Gun Team
174 US Para Scout Team
175 US Para Sniper
176 US Para AT Team
177 US Para LMG Team
178 US Para Lt Mortar Team
179 US Para Md Mortar Team
180 US Glider Inf Company HQ
181 US Glider Inf Platoon HQ
182 US Glider Inf Rifle Team
183 US Glider Inf Hv Rifle Team
184 US Glider Inf Gun Team
185 US Glider Inf Scout Team
186 US Glider Inf Sniper
187 US Glider Inf AT Team
188 US Glider Inf LMG Team
189 US Glider Inf MMG Team
190 US Glider Inf Lt Mortar Team
191 US Glider Inf Md Mortar Team
192 US Airborne MMG Team
193 US Airborne Lt AA Gun
194 US Airborne Lt AT Gun
195 US Airborne Lt Artillery Gun
196 US Airborne Engineer Squad

#182: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Priapus PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:22 am
    —
I've recently blown the dust off of my copy of LSA and given a whirl. As enjoyable as it is the biggest flaws I've spotted so far are the ludicrously powerful and accurate mortars and the extremely sensitive ATGs (a single mortar round will blow the damn things up). Are you guys intending to tamper with the weapons data at all? Something akin to TRSM perhaps? Please?...

#183: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:30 am
    —
Priapus wrote (View Post):
I've recently blown the dust off of my copy of LSA and given a whirl. As enjoyable as it is the biggest flaws I've spotted so far are the ludicrously powerful and accurate mortars and the extremely sensitive ATGs (a single mortar round will blow the damn things up). Are you guys intending to tamper with the weapons data at all? Something akin to TRSM perhaps? Please?...


Absolutely.  This will be a first for me, so I'm not even sure what is adjustable at this stage, but I intend to play with as much data as possible.  

EDIT: I've delved into the data files before, but I've never actually compiled/modified the list before.

It will just come down to: tweak, test, tweak, test, etc, until the right balance is achieved.

Realism is good; playability is better.

#184: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: mooxe PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:29 am
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):

Realism is good; playability is better.


Exactly!!

#185: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:25 am
    —
Small adjustment to the allied list; I forgot to include veteran and green infantry for the infantry brigades.  So, finals list is now 200 even, with the following additions/adjustments:

UK Inf Rifle Group
UK Inf Veteran Rifle Group
UK Inf Green Rifle Group
UK Inf Rifle Section (replaces UK Inf Hv Rifle Group)
UK Inf Veteran Rifle Section
UK Inf Green Rifle Section

These will be divided up something like 50%, 25%, 25% in each infantry BG, though I will try to check my research on BG status going into OMG to see if I can more closely represent historical numbers.

The idea originally suggested by ronson is that the general infantry, having much less training than most other branches of the armed forces, will be more affected by combat experience.  The other branches, being much more effectively trained, will not have as wide a fluctuating level of ability.

Now, I know this isn't precisely correct representatiuon, but for game-play purposes it works well enough.

Also, against ronson's advice, I'm going to try out infantry sections as a full compliment of 10 soldiers to see how it plays.  Consensus is that the engine doesn't cope well with that number of men in a team, but we'll try it out and see what they do.

#186: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_idLocation: Soerabaja PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:06 am
    —
Hoogley wrote (View Post):


Also, against ronson's advice, I'm going to try out infantry sections as a full compliment of 10 soldiers to see how it plays.  Consensus is that the engine doesn't cope well with that number of men in a team, but we'll try it out and see what they do.


10 soldier teams work well to boost the soldier numbers for the AI side...for vetmods.
For gameplay...I agree with Ronson...the engine doesn't handle 10 men well.  You will also have a problem with the graphics/interface for displaying 10 soldier heads.
And more importantly...the Soldier Screen only displays 7 soldier stats...so you can't keep stat track of the 3 additional soldiers.

For CC...IMO splitting the full infantry sections into 2-3 smaller units/squads (Rifle Squad, LMG Squad, Recon Squad etc) works best.

#187: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:46 am
    —
Really, what's the point of setting the maximum at 10 if the UI isn't set up to accomodate it?

That...

makes...

no...

sense.

Damn.  Back to smaller teams it is.

#188: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:34 am
    —
ARGH!  Damned be to data entry.  I had one team in the wrong place, so now I've got to go through and validate all of the data again.

Expletive!

#189: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: HoogleyLocation: Brisbane PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:21 am
    —
Since this is a mod for LSA, this thread will now continue here.



Close Combat Series -> Close Combat The Longest Day


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