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#101: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:24 am
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Hoogley wrote (View Post):

Question - Has anybody ever tried giving a squad more than one crewed weapon? What happened? Did the engine deal with it, or will it freak out?

The reason for asking is that I have at least one squad type that has a Bren and 2x PIATs, so I'm wondering if there's a way to allow all three weapons to be picked up by another team member if the carrier goes down.

AFAIK the engine will handle them fine.
Squads with multiple crewed weapons are commonly used in VetMods.

#102: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:05 am
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Quick example of a road. The camber lighting and edge shading is all layer effects.

Still not 100%, but just getting this far was bloody painful.

country_road_sample.jpg

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384.12 KB

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#103: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:19 am
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Well if a x-wife and two teenage daughters didn't give me enough grey hairs, this will help them on the way... Wink

(But it's fun as hell anyway!)

But your road... Rolling Eyes

Don't want to nag, but it kind of looks like a stream with slopes. Confused

Is it possible to create some effects to 'raise' the embankment? -Just my reflection.

#104: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: VonBirkby,

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:06 pm
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http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm for full strength Battlion organistaion and equipment tables and http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Siegfried/Siegfried%20Line/siegfried-ch06.htm for some strenght for German units in Holland

#105: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:22 pm
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@ Woulf : If you don't know these sources you have not tried hard enough : http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/frames.htm Wink

. You'll find orders of battle for the Germans too.
German Kriegstagebuch LXXXVIII corps : http://maddog.gionpeters.com/welcome.html . Many useful downloads of microfilmed war diaries. I used some of these for my unit research for Battle of the Scheldt but these files I think are particularly useful for researching Market Garden. It's going to take you a lot of time to read all these files!
Sturmpanzer.com: http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1 . Click "Document Section" for many of the same files as the aforementioned website but it has also other information to offer.
Don't buy too much literature before going through this first hand information first.

Happy researching !

#106: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:48 pm
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@ Hoogley: perhaps useful for rooftextures, roads, general stuff: check this website with 1940's colour photos: http://hustinx.x-cago.com/hustinx/index.do . It has galleries of colour photos shot during the 1930's and '40's by Alphons Hustinx who was an adventurous photographer and cinematographer and an early adaptor of colour film. The site is entirely in Dutch but for pics of The Netherlands click 'Nederland' and select the province of choice . "Gelderland" is where Nijmegen and Arnhem are situated. I own a book with his photos and might be tempted to scan one or two if you are looking for something specific.

#107: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: DarkScipio,

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:04 pm
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Thanks so much for your work an patience.

It looks very very good.

#108: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land,

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:15 am
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squadleader_id wrote (View Post):

Hoogley wrote (View Post):

AFAIK the engine will handle them fine.
Squads with multiple crewed weapons are commonly used in VetMods.

yeah pretty sure the Englander!!! mod for Cc3 had two MGs and even a Pak and an MG in the single squad

#109: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:27 am
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Pete - Finding out the upper tier formations is not the issue. It's actually finding the tables of organisation and equipment that's the problem. I.e., all of the data you need to work out what squad level units and armaments to use. The Third Reich army made more TOEs than possibly any other army in existence; they changed unit makeups like people change underwear. That makes for a very fluid military organisation, but hard for people trying to work it all out retrospectively. Plus there's the problem that the Germans during OMG were using whatever units they could muster, split up into irregular formations and swapped around between different KGs/Divs, and they were seriously undermanned and/or equipped.

For example, from what I've gleaned, The 9th SS Panzer Divison only appear to have had around 120 men or so in the Panzer Regiment, and as far as I can find, only 3 PzKw V and 2 Flak PzKw IV tanks. Also, the 19th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment appears to only have one operational battalion; Battalion I (Armoured) with 300 men. So, the 9th are given a Werkstatt unit of about 100 men, and a Shiffsturm unit of about 100 men, I assume to make up for this lack of man and tank power. Then, the 9th Division send their recon battalion off to defent Nijmegen bridge (effectively loosing them and creating a new KG in the process), so the 10th SS Div give the 9th SS Div their armoured recon battalion to make up for the loss, probably because the 9th were so comparably low in armoured vehicles. Then, the 9th SS Recon Battalion try to hook back up with the 9th Div, only to get pummeled on the bridge, so I gather the 10th never got their recon battalion back. And that's just one division out of about twenty involved.

It's painful. Shocked

VonBirkby - Now, that is really weird. I went back to bayonettestrength last week after a five year hiatus to find that I couldn't find the armoured formations information... and yet, here it's all back again... I think I must have been rendered temporarily stupid for a spell there. Embarassed

I also agree that this is a very awesome source of TOE and OOB information.

7A_Woulf - Hey, man, don't be knocking my road! It's not that ba... well... um... oh... yeah, you're right. The road thing is working out harder than I would have thought. The problem is that using an aerial photo of a road as an object just has too many limitations. So, I thought that if I could work out how to make asphalt/bitumen a texture layer, then it would work out better. But, the problem is that as soon as you start getting into layer effects, you've got to be very careful otherwise it's easy for everything to end up looking naff.

I'll keep at it.

Last edited by Hoogley on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

#110: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:43 am
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@ Pete and Hoogly

Kershaws book is good, I can find most info down to battalion level in it and for the more researched areas (as Arnhem) the number of men in each unit, so sometime today I'll have the BGs and general disposition of the done for the first day of gaming. The general problem are the KstN (TOE) and OOB of the beaten Germans in the area and the strength of some less famous units. (Two examples: Son bridge was defended by a “an experienced kampfgruppe from Hermann Goering training and replacement Div.” and a number Flak 88. There were two march-battalions sent against the 101st from a FJ training deposit at s'Hertogenboch (possibly the 'HG' again) during the first day, but I haven't any info on their strength or what happened to them later in the battle... Rolling Eyes

)

But thanks for the links anyway guys, some were new, some were old favourites. And even if they maybe don't help me now (don't know that yet) it's always fun to have access to that kind of info. Cool

Last edited by 7A_Woulf on Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

#111: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:11 am
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Ok, how about this one? Again, the raised edging effect is all layer effects, so nobody needs to have art skills other than how to paint a line.

Better?

I hope so, 'cause this wasn't easy to get. Rolling Eyes

road_example.jpg

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395.38 KB

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16621 Time(s)

#112: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Priapus,

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:41 pm
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Looking good hoogley

#113: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: southern_land,

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:17 am
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Hoogley wrote (View Post):

Ok, how about this one? Again, the raised edging effect is all layer effects, so nobody needs to have art skills other than how to paint a line.

Better?

I hope so, 'cause this wasn't easy to get. Rolling Eyes

try layer style inner glow 10-15px size black normal blend and hit it with some noise then fiddle with the opacity. helps give the surfaced roads a sense of wear

#114: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:28 am
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Thanks for the links Pete, really interesting!

As you said a lot to read, and I haven't been speaking or reading German the last 18 years... Rolling Eyes

#115: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:41 pm
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You're welcome.
You might already know this site with German symbols explained: http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_43.html .
And don't forget to download the tables of organization from Sturmpanzer (German K.St.N.) Wink

#116: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:14 pm
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Ok, question for those with knowledge:

Does anybody know if the M1919A6 replaced the M1919A4s or the BARs in the US para's organisational and equipment tables?

Cheers.

#117: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:55 pm
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The M1919A6 was supposed to replace the A4, but the most gunners didn't like it and rebuilt their A6's to become like their old A4, here's a short link:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

During Normandy most AB squads (not glider) had MG's as squad weapon, but during OMG they had figured out a system to jump with the BAR, so they used it as squad-weapon to some level. Don't have any exact numbers of the TO&E though, just know the general discussion since I looked into Normandy.

Cheers

#118: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:59 pm
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

The M1919A6 was supposed to replace the A4, but the most gunners didn't like it and rebuilt their A6's to become like their old A4, here's a short link:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

During Normandy most AB squads (not glider) had MG's as squad weapon, but during OMG they had figured out a system to jump with the BAR, so they used it as squad-weapon to some level. Don't have any exact numbers of the TO&E though, just know the general discussion since I looked into Normandy.

Cheers

Hey, 7A. I managed to find a reference to BARs on that website, but he says they didn't figure out how to jump with them until after the war. Is there a contradicting comment somewhere else on his site? Also, I noticed he seems a little sensitive on the topic of BARs:

"note: The Browning Automatic Rifle (B.A.R.) was not issued to WW2 paratroopers because it was considered too awkward to jump with. It was not listed on the TO&E for Parachute Infantry rifle companies. The weapon weighs about 20 lb and is four feet long and cannot be broken down for jumping purposes. This is why squad tactics centered around the LMG (dropped in bundles) instead. The B.A.R. was an effective and devastating weapon and immediately after WW2, the 82nd and 11th Airborne Divisions incorporated them into their TO&Es and devised a method of jumping with them fully-assembled, and strapped alongside the parachutist's leg, muzzle down.

PLEASE STOP ASKING ABOUT B.A.R.s ON THE FORUM".

:lol:

Hoogs.

#119: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:13 pm
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Sorry mate, was looking into Normandy, so I made the usual mistake and didn't bookmark the site about BAR's during OMG. Mad

But start your search from here:

http://triggertimeforum.yuku.com/reply/23051/t/327th-photos-showing-B-A-R.html#reply-23051

Guess you can find the answer there (somewhere...) Rolling Eyes

#120: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:56 pm
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"In Market Garden and at Bastogne, more and more BARs appeared in the PIR companies, but not in a
organized TO&E standard method of issue. They were mostly swiped, salvaged or traded from other units.
Nor was a safe method developed by the time of the 101st's last WW2 combat jump in Market-Garden, for
jumping with a BAR-you can bet most if not all of them came-in via equipment bundles or in gliders.
I DO have photos of 11th ABD troopers jumping practice jumps with BARs after WW2 ended but that was
a technique developed later." - Again, mostly concurs with the previous comment.

"Lt. Elmer Brandenberger( B/502), in a letter from 1962 describes in his post jump experience . In it he talks about come a cross one of his bundles and arming himself with a B.A.R. I am not sure why a PIR would have had the B.A.R. but one of the company missions was to secure DZ -A. I speculate that the BAR's were additional firepower in that job hence why it was in a drop bundle. So there is evidence that some of the PIR's did have BAR's but did not jump them on their person... Paul" - Contradiction.

I don't know. I gather the hot contention is that all official sources state that paratroopers didn't use BARs, but a lot of personal accounts and such suggest they did. This looks from the surface like one of those "Apple vs Microsoft" debates: destined for eternal argument. My personal take is this: it seems clear they didn't officially get equipped with BARs, but probably a number of guys/units either got their hands on them and had them dropped in equipment drops, had modified BARs they carried on person, or picked them up after dropping (maybe from the Glider Regiment guys?).

So, to work this out in game terms, you could do one of two things: forget about it and stick to official TOE reports, or mix them up so most gun teams have A4s and some have BARs. The second resolution means having to create an extra unit, though.

What do you guys think?

P.S. I'm on holidays down to Melbourne for a week with the family, so I probably won't get much time online. Back late on the 3rd of July (EST +10).

Update on Progress: 7A_Woulf is doing an amazing job unravelling the German unit movements for the campaign - and consuming a lot of personal time in the process - and ronson is currently compiling an allied units/soldiers list to compare against my original compositions. So, from a data front, we are moving towards a final composition of CC data files.

I am still working on the map creator, but I'll obviously have to pause for a week.

Talk later. Got to go.

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