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#41: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:20 pm
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Where is Student's First Parachute Army?

#42: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:22 pm
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One thing I should just mention: This mod is for the community. However, all images remain the intellectual property of Duncan Beale. They are not to be used for any purpose without my express permission. Any permission of use given on this forum site is purely for non-profit community use. Commercial use is not inferred in any permission given on this site, nor is any use that results in personal or commercial financial gain.

Ok, sorry; just had to get that ugly little business out of the way. ;)

That said, feel free to add the team heads to your build.

#43: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:35 pm
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I also don't see Von Zangen's Fifteen Army included in the list.

Or am I just not understanding it?

#44: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:56 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

Where is Student's First Parachute Army?

First Parachute Army
II Fallschirmjäger Korps
3rd Fallschirmjäger Division
5th Fallschirmjäger Division
Kampfgruppe Greschick
XII SS Korps (12th)
180th Infantry Division
190th Infantry Division
LXXXVI Korps
Division Nr. 176
6th Parachute Regiment
107th Panzer Brigade
Wehrkreis VI
Corps "Feldt"
406th Landesschützen Division
Fallschirm-Jäger-Division Erdmann
84th Infanterie Division
89th Infanterie Division
LXXIV Corps
Kampfgruppe "Chill"
272nd Volksgrenadier Division
326th Volksgrenadier Division
LXXXI Corps
47th Volksgrenadier Division
353rd Infantry Division
363rd Volksgrenadier Division

Like I've said before; the above unit relationship table is probably open to interpretation, since the OOBs of this operation changed a few times.

#45: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 11:06 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

I also don't see Von Zangen's Fifteen Army included in the list.

Or am I just not understanding it?

Fifteenth Army
LXVII Korps
346th Infanterie Division
711th Static Division
719th Coastal Division
LXXXVIII Korps (88th)
KG "Walther"
59th Infanterie Division
245th Infanterie Division
712th Infanterie Division

Again, the previous disclaimer about OOBs applies.

Army level is too high to be useful; I'm using Divison, Brigade, Regiment & Battalion sized BGs. I don't even like using divisional level, but I don't have enough BG spots, or map room for that matter, to fit all the units in otherwise.

#46: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:35 pm
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I'm currently doing a second revision of my battlemap placements. Trying to un-squeeze everything a little, whilst refining important map positions.

Added the Maas-Waal Canal, which I failed to notice the absence of until now.

It still takes a minimum of 5 1/2 days to get to Arnhem based on the lead elements of XXX Corps showing up on the map 3rd turn of second day (around noon). Which is a problem if we are trying to emulate the desired outcome, rather than the historical outcome... hmmmm...

No solution immediately presents itself to mind, as all of the battlemap placements along XXX Corps route are kind of crucial. I could solidify Son, Veghel and Grave into one battlemap each, rather than one for each town and bridge. That would knock off three turns. Not overly keen on the idea.

StratMap.jpg

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#47: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:38 pm
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How many "Turns" per day are you proposing.

You can have Four plus a night turn.....

#48: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:16 am
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Very nice. Good to see that there is still some life in this old favorite.

One request that I would make is that in addition to playing vs AI that you make it playable against a human opponent. Some of us are no longer able to abide an AI opponent before falling asleep. Its a whole different world plain against an opponent with a brain.

looks like you have a great start going.

#49: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:47 am
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Ahhh... I thought it was 4 turns, and you could designate the 4th turn as either night or day. Hmmmmm... so, a possible max of 5 turns per day. That still means, if XXX Corps turns up on the 2nd turn of day two, that it's going to take a minimum of 5 days to reach Arnhem bridge with my current battlemap configuration.

Problems, problems. The issue is that the CC5/TLD engine is not designed to emulate this operation in a way that would benefit gameplay (and realism). If armoured and mobile units could move more than one map per turn (like if you had a "movement" bar that reduced as you moved, and each different type of unit had different values - cohesion?), then easily could you better represent the XXX Corps push to Arnhem. And that is really the only problem; well, that and the inability to increase the campaign map size.

The interesting thing is that if I added the area between Eindhoven and Belgium, and used a max of three maps to represent this area, then you could make it to Arnhem bridge in four days flat. Aaaargh! I was trying to avoid having to kill my campaign map, but I think it's almost a given. Actually, what I could do is "shrink" the current image and just add to the blank space left, either on all sides or just the area between Belgium and Eindhoven.

I am also starting to think that I need to reconsider how I represent the battlemap regions. Because of how the engine spaces the unit icons, there is a probable issue with overlap. One thing I'm thinking I will have to resort to is using the "classic" battlemap region zoning, and maybe have the bridge objectives in my current style of a box-in, or maybe even a box-out.

So, in the end, this current campaign map is far from finished.

#50: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 3:42 pm
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Teaser... in progress.

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#51: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: golani_2,

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:14 pm
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You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*

#52: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Pzt_Kevin_dtn, Location: USA

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:56 pm
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Its always a challenge finding the right balance between game play and historical aspects of a campaign given the limits of the game format. But don't feel that you need to alter the game play significantly just to accomplish the historical goal. At the end of the day its the joy of fighting battles on the terrain and having a semblence of what the commanders had to face in the real life battle.

#53: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:31 pm
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Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote (View Post):

Its always a challenge finding the right balance between game play and historical aspects of a campaign given the limits of the game format. But don't feel that you need to alter the game play significantly just to accomplish the historical goal. At the end of the day its the joy of fighting battles on the terrain and having a semblence of what the commanders had to face in the real life battle.

Well said. If I want absolute realism I wouldn't be playing a game.

#54: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:11 pm
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The revised strategic map

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#55: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 9:24 pm
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golani_2 wrote (View Post):

You are the MAN! :)

I probably missed it, but are you doing the actual battle maps too or are you converting them from CCII?

I just didn't really like the CCII maps...
*Hiding from incoming barrage due to last comment*

I'm trying to avoid using the original maps; they're too claustrophobic for my liking. If I were to use any, they would have to be heavily expanded and modified.

#56: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: QM, Location: Australia

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:14 am
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Great looking map Hoogley.

Nice stuff!

#57: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:12 am
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Here is the first revision of the battlemap placements.

StratMap2.jpg

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#58: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: golani_2,

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 pm
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Hoogley wrote (View Post):

golani_2 wrote (View Post):

I'm trying to avoid using the original maps; they're too claustrophobic for my liking. If I were to use any, they would have to be heavily expanded and modified.

Don't know if I mentioned it already, but you're the man! Very Happy

#59: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: pagskier,

Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 10:05 pm
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that looks damn good!
what is this extreme S town looks quite far of the actual road
what happened overthere?

#60: Re: Operation Market Garden Mod for tLD Author: Hoogley, Location: Brisbane

Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:25 am
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golani_2 - "Don't know if I mentioned it already, but you're the man! Very Happy

"

Shucks, golani_2, you're making me blush.

pagskier - '"what is this extreme S town looks quite far of the actual road
what happened overthere?"

s'-Hertogenbosch? Not much happened there, actually. It's there for gameplay reasons. I wanted to give the German player a bit of flexibility of movement. From what I've read, the Germans were moving troops from here to there and back again; if I recall correctly, I think the 6th Falschirmjager took part in... actually, I think it was all three operational zones: 1st (Arnhem), 82nd (Nijmegen), and 101st (Eindhoven). Unfortunately, I couldn't put in the route across the (name escapes me momentarily) ferry to the east - again for gameplay reasons, but I still wanted to give the Germans a lot of room to maneuver.

So, if you look at my battlemap placements, you'll see that each "zone" is a bulbous mass of maps, which constrict to a bridge crossing (or two) between each zone: Arnhem - Nijmegen Bridge - Nijmegen - Grave Bridge - Eindhoven. So, the Allied player really has to take each adjoining bridge in order to move to the next operational area. (Now, I know this contravenes history in regard to Nijmegen. Unfortunately, using the CCtLD engine, having a map setup for the river crossing would equate to a "cheat" to move armour across the river. So, though I thought long and hard, I've decided to leave it out. Sorry to all the purists (myself included), but hopefully you can see my reasoning.)

Combat in the Eindhoven area (101st) expanded west from Eindhoven to Best, Schijndel, and Oss; and out to Helmond and Gemert on the east. Helmond and s'-Hertogenbosch seem to have been major operational hubs for the Germans. To represent this, I've included s'-Hertogenbosch (it's frightening how easily I can spell this now) not because any battles occured there, but as a German supply & reinforcement point, from which the German player can direct his units onto the XXX Corps route. From there you can move them anywhere from Eindhoven to Grave. Likewise, Helmond is the supply hub to the east of the route.

Last edited by Hoogley on Mon May 31, 2010 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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