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Close Combat Series -> The Mess

#1: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:01 am
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They have never been in mods or rereleases for one simple reason. Its too hard to draw the 3D'ish sides of the vehicles and buildings. The ones we do see in the mods and rereleases are taken from the originals by Atomic.

There are a few advantages to having them.
- You can tell when a vehicle is on a slope and may be unable to fire back you
- You will notice your vehicle is on a steep angle without checking the status
- You can see the entry points on atleast one or two sides of a building
- Having these graphics is more visually appealing for both

The advantages of not having them.
- Mods and rereleases would theoretically be released faster

Should the next version of Close Combat from Matrix/S3T include the tilted graphics set?

Yes, why?
No, why?

Last edited by mooxe on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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#2: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: vonB,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:13 am
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I think you have more or less stated the case for both Defense and Prosecution. Nice to have but a lot of extra work especially for vehicles...

#3: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: papa_whisky,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:05 am
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I always think the tanks tended to look a bit 'wobbly'. I would prefer pure top down but with shadows changed on the vehicle as it moves and rotates rather like the shadows of the vehicle itself. The amount of extra work this creates though would probably not be worth the effort. The 3Dish sides of buildings is good on tall buildings but should be subtle. I imagine it makes for much harder artwork.

#4: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: southern_land,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:26 am
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My biggest bugbears with the angled building graphics are fourfold...

1. Far harder to produce unless you have a three d graphics package
2. The give a non-square foot print when the roof tile comes away
3. If they really "need" to be 3d then they ought tilt away below your line of sight which means you're going full 3d which isn't possible given the age of the CC engine (as far as i know anyway)
4. Far harder to rotate a building for inclusion into a map without producing a seperate render of the object

#5: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:22 am
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The 3d affect for tanks was good but as a mod maker I would never put in the effort. Probably best to wait till there is a real 3D engine (viewed top down) to create real 3D tanks and have dynamic shadows, etc. which all come with a real 3D engine....

#6: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:39 am
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AFAIK the vehicle graphics repacker like XTank disables the tilted graphics when repacking the files anyway...so original Atomic tank animation is not moddable.
Is there a modder tool than can reproduce the original tilting animations?

#7: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:00 am
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RtB tool unpacks and repacks all 17 images.

But I agree with Tjszd, better to wait for a true 3D engine, but I guess if there was a cheap way to do it it would be awesome, be it by miniatures, other 3D games etc. When looking for those to try and do a vehicle of my own, I found out that they actually sell some 3D models of tanks alone, the cheaper ones where like 15$. Btw talking about 3D games, has anyone tried taking pictures of say, EYSA or CM vehicles? can their vehicles be pre-visualized like on an editor or something so as to not load the game and prntscrn?

Also, I wanted to say that I've regained a lot more respect for the guys who can actually mod the vehicles and all the graphics, having spent like 16hrs doing one and coming up with a tank that looks like a cardboard cut out haha, it looks funny but it will always have a special place in my heart as my first vehicle.

#8: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:18 am
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RtBTool does everything! Thanks for the heads-up, Kanov!
You can take pics of vehicles from Faces Of War and Blitzkrieg (1&2) while in the world builder/editor. Probably Company of Heroes too...but the problem with 3D models are the blurry textures...nowhere near the quality needed for CC...so manual panting is still a must.

#9: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:52 am
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squadleader_id wrote (View Post):

RtBTool does everything!

No kidding, kind of like the wonder tool, the swiss knife of CC.

I didn't notice 3D models were no good, So I guess maybe miniatures and drawings could be better?

#10: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: mooxe,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:06 am
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I think Atomic modelled the vehicles in 3ds Max and then extracted 2D imagest. Now this is a decade ago now. I think the only difficulty in doing this is learning how to use the right program. The art work would probably come easy to some people around here. The next step would be having a good technique to do it en masse.

GIJoe did it...

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=117

Waiting for a 3D engine... well thats not coming. The focus is on making these games better.

#11: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:02 am
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One way of accelerating the process, it occurs to me that you would only need to do half the images then flip them horizontally to have the effect from the other side.

#12: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:06 am
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nope - they are generally asymetrical

#13: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:27 am
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schrecken wrote (View Post):

nope - they are generally asymetrical

You could do half the images tilted to one side, then flip them to the other side adjusting the graphic where needed to take into account things that are in one side but not in other, like AA guns or bow machine guns. You could do the tilted graphics with a simple hull drawing for example, and then add the details later, much better than drawing all of them I think.

Big tanks hurt the immersion IMO because you notice more how they seem to float instead of moving more naturally.

#14: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: vonB,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:27 am
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Quote:

Big tanks hurt the immersion IMO because you notice more how they seem to float instead of moving more naturally.

and they way they sometimes move in one direction and point in another. But that's not a graphics but an engine issue...

#15: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: -Jager-, Location: stockholm

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:44 pm
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I just think it's far beter to make the maps as good as possible!
In a good map you just know when the Tank is in a sharp angle

#16: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:30 pm
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For houses the taller ones look better when they are 3D.

Load up and run CCIV 4.02 and choose the Axis and the Assenios map,when watching the Tanks on slopes it does not provide a very good illustration of being on a slope while Moving.Standing still it looks good.

For 1 the Shadow doesn't change enough (if any) to help provide the effect..
And 2 it just makes the Tank look cheesy as it goes from Long to Short when moving.

I campaigned for this for a long time and Mafi put that option in the RTBTool,but once I got to messing around with it I gave up.

When you look at the graphics Atomic created for the tilting tanks there is nothing there to consider it hard to do.
I see no need for a 3D program to recreate the effect.I think one could figure it out with a newer version of Photoshop and or maybe the use of the Transformation Tool.

I do not know if the Shadow has 17 different images on top of the rotating of the vehicles images (did that make sense?)
loading it up with Mafi's VehicleShadowEdit Tool I did not see it,but I have VERY limited experiance with that Tool.Better for me to say NONE really.

As for squadleaders comment that images from other games do not have the quality needed for CC I either don't understand what he's saying or disagree completely.
The LACK of quality images Atomic created with the 17 images for the Panther along with the too small of scale the original CCIV just doesnt provide a good enough experiance for the game.

All that said I do still NOT like the current hovering none tilting effect, no matter how nice the map is drawn or shadded to depict a hill the Tank never looks like it's going up/downhill.On say Elsenborn Ridge for example how many times have you seen your Tank wont shoot and you have to view the Soldier window to see the angle is too steep?

An even better example is the WAR map Recht.
At the top of the map by the meyerode VL the elevation is a staggering 49.5m,now cruise your tank all the way down the dirt road till you get to the Crossroads VL which has a elevation of 5.5m.
The current state of Tanks within WAR creates NOTHING to depict such a staggering change in elevation.And to be honest only a very few graphics on that map depicts it,the dirt road itself surly doesnt.It looks the same all the way down,even though the road drops drastically within say what 30-40meters?

#17: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 3:50 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

As for squadleaders comment that images from other games do not have the quality needed for CC I either don't understand what he's saying or disagree completely.
The LACK of quality images Atomic created with the 17 images for the Panther along with the too small of scale the original CCIV just doesnt provide a good enough experiance for the game.

What I meant was if you take screenshots of the 3D vehicles from games like CoH, Faces of War or Blitzkrieg (preferably from the game map/world editor)...they won't be "ready to use" for CC Vehicles...the textures used for 3D vehicles tend to be blurry when the vehicles are extremely zoomed out like in CC. Most new 3D RTS games feature close-up cams and not enough zoom-out distance...and the textures used reflect that.

#18: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 4:08 pm
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That I agree with.

Not even the Sprites depict elevation in CC.
When you look at the map Trois Ponts the rail road by the exit VL to LaGleize has great shading to depict that the tracks are down in a gully but the elevation change is only from 2.5m (top) to 1.5m (bottom)
I guess one could conclude that the Trees are providing all that shade down in the gully,but when you put your troops down in there the white camo suits stand out as if they aren't even in a gully.

The best that CC has to depict any type of depth is the 3D houses.And the shading of hills,unfortunately you don't see the shadow of the hill get dark enough to depict a steep change in elevation all the time or used in the right way.
And maybe when Tanks go under Trees does depict some depth.

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#19: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Talorgan,

Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:23 pm
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southern_land wrote (View Post):

Far harder to produce unless you have a three d graphics package

Which 3D graphics package could fulfill the task?

#20: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: southern_land,

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:36 am
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lightwave for sure, probably others too

#21: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:42 am
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With the more powerful computers today and the higher res video cards/monitors available CC needs the maps and vehicles to be done with more pixels per meter which would let them be more detailed.

At minimum both maps and vehicles should be at 10 pixels per meter to match (closer) the soldiers (10 to 12 depending on the pose). Or maps should be at 10 pixels per meter and soldiers/vehicles at 15?

#22: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Sbufkle, Location: Canada

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:19 pm
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I never liked angled view buildings or vehicles. Its a top down game after all.

Yes it does take alot of extra work to do angles, but thats not why I dont like them, becuase then everything on a map should be realisitically angled..

#23: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:15 pm
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CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):

I never liked angled view buildings or vehicles. Its a top down game after all.

Yes it does take alot of extra work to do angles, but thats not why I dont like them, becuase then everything on a map should be realisitically angled..

Well... thats not a great arguement at all. Because its top down you should not be able to see any sides? We are not going to debate over what top down means. Many top down 2D games do have some representation of height, sides or angles. And from the last four installments of CC from Atomic, they intended to represent that well. I suppose in a top down game when a tank goes down a hill, you will see the tanks rear end right?

I doubt anyone (or anymore than two) has really given this a serious go to make it work. If Atomic could do it 12 years ago, then I could assume theres applications out there to make it much easier.

We have over 10 versions of Close Combat now, thats one version every year almost. Take a step back and put more of the focus on quality rather than speed.

#24: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:41 pm
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Funny wobbly tanks does not a quality visual experience make....

Nor does some weird buildings with random walls sticking out...

I live on a hill, using google earth I see the top of my car not the back....

You probably think your wife is beautiful whereas I think she runs second to mine.

#25: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: vonB,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:37 am
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It's an artificial top down anyway. There's no perspective or parallax. If you are looking down on the middle, then you should start to see the sides facing you as the distances regress. It's really a virtual Map made to come alive with representational graphics.

I remember when I got EYSA. I liked the game, but interestingly ended up playing it a la CC, that is zooming out to the birds eye view to play from there, even though you could get down to ground level. For me, it's the closest so far to a CC experience in another game, and I put that down to the Mad Bunny. You know, I might even wield it out again sometime just for a small diversion...

#26: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: mooxe,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:47 am
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The debate is not about why these graphics have been omitted. We already know, its a shortcut. They were not omitted because CC is better off without them. If the vehicle graphics seem wobbly then its because the change in graphics are not subtle enough. These were features that added more depth to the decision making of the tactical phase.

Should you know the state of a tanks angle without clicking on it?

Do you want to know where the doors are on the west and south sides of a building before entering without clicking on it?

In the remakes, many of the original tanks kept the tilted images. So really, if it detracted from the game why werent they removed? It sounds like they were not removed because they are better than a single flat top view. The reason for not making the new tanks with the titled image set was because its too hard and takes too long - but in case that reason isnt good enough throw "its not realistic" or something in there as well.

I know that SL can stamp out maps pretty quick, and the guys drawing the vehicles are very good at that to. There is certainly a comfort zone there and a feeling that the work is good enough. It is good but it can get better. Besides drawing more interesting looking houses, maps or vehicles the only graphics update this game can see with its current engine is going back to what Atomic did with the tilted/angle graphics.

#27: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:32 am
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Personally I see it as a non-issue.

The graphics you describe neither add nor subtract from the game, in my opinion.

Whether they are there or not is just a curiosity.

#28: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: southern_land,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:39 am
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Okay take the other view then, asthetics aside (and thats debateable) what gaming value does tilted graphics provide? It doesn't give you a better indication of building height that the floor numbers stamped on the roof.

"Do you want to know where the doors are on the west and south sides of a building before entering without clicking on it? "

Thats a misleading statement in many ways too as it neglects entry points on the northern and eastern sides of a structure. If the graphics ned to show this then they should show it on all sides. Best way of sgowing entry points to a lot of buildings is by adding doorstels, paths of worn trails to those entries

Even in cc5 titled buildings aren't used exclusively I've just popped Acequvlle open and of the 16 buildings 5 have no discernable tilt, even two story structures.

probably also need to ask the question if Cc could have buildings of 10 floors should we see 10 floors worth of tilt or would that just look silly?

#29: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:11 pm
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First off, nice discussion...lots of responses in only 3+ days.

When RTBTool came out, I made a keyframe sequence for LW that would render the 17 different tilted images for vehicles. This was based on the 17 keyframes that Atomic originally used when rendering their 3d models in 3DS. I've never used it beyond testing for a couple of reasons.

1. I had never before noticed the tilting in the game, so it obviously didn't add that much to the game for me.
2. The lack of detail that comes with rendering vehicles at the CC scale with the animation was not worth it to me. I found that I preferred the higher detail over the animation...with pt#1 above being the main reason. Now, if the standard scale was the zoom scale of CC3 then perhaps my attitude might change.
3. The terrain doesn't actually have an effect on the animation. It is a straight 17 frame animation. You can being driving down a flat road, and you still see the tilting/rocking/rolling animation.

For the 'floating' issue...that can be addressed with Mafi's VehShadEdit tool...if a person wants to take the time to make the shadow as good as possible.

For buildings, well, that's obviously up to the mapmakers. I like to render the buildings and as many structures as possible on my maps in LW, in order to give them the slight 3d effect...but the main reason I do it that way is to provide them with accurate shadowing.

#30: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:39 pm
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Quote:

The terrain doesn't actually have an effect on the animation.

The elevation is what makes the animation change, even a 1 meter difference in elevation tilts the vehicle. I tried this to see what triggered the different frames, I ran a Sherman from CC5 through a road that seemed flat but changed elevations and the tank tilted a little, you notice it more when crushing hedgerows or driving on a hill.

#31: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: vonB,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:21 pm
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Quote:

probably also need to ask the question if Cc could have buildings of 10 floors should we see 10 floors worth of tilt or would that just look silly?

If CC is going to have such perspectives, then it needs a virtual camera view (like EYSA). Unless this is implemented as a Core System Function, then I would leave CC as it is.

However, what I WOULD like to be able to do is to manage Teams in multi-floor buildings. Right now if a Team enters a 4 storey building, they automatically go to the first fourth floor. Not only that, they seem to be able to get up to the fourth floor amazingly quickly and start firing, and can almost teleport out they leave so fast. Don't know about you, but it takes a few seconds to shinny up 3 flights of stairs, and that's without combat gear!!!

I can see the challanges in getting it to work (which is why it probably was not done). It would be easy to have a marker (floor number) with the Team, but what do you do about 2 Teams in the same building on different floors? And then there's multi-floor LOS to calculate.

#32: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:26 pm
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In CCMT the delay in reaching the fourth floor was modelled by

1. Buildings could only be accessed by Doors and Windows.

2. Each new level of access eg Wood Door level 2 had an ever increasing movement rate penalty

This avoided the instantaneous teleporting of earlier versions of CC

#33: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:57 pm
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You may see it, but what I was saying, is that it is just a typical animation loop like any other in CC, whether the terrain is coded the same elevation or not. When you run that sherman on a road where the elevation is all the same, you still see the tilting/rocking/rolling

#34: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:11 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):

When you run that sherman on a road where the elevation is all the same, you still see the tilting/rocking/rolling

I don't think so, no tilting observed on flat terrain I just checked again and tilting actually occurs at changes of half a meter. It is no loop, the elevation is what determines the graphic if there's no graphic, Image0000 is used I think.

#35: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:38 am
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Have to disagree CSO_Linebacker.... I once selected 15 of the same tank and CC5 selected the right graphic for the elevation change based on the ground I sat the tank on during the deployment phase.

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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