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#21: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 6:42 am
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With the more powerful computers today and the higher res video cards/monitors available CC needs the maps and vehicles to be done with more pixels per meter which would let them be more detailed.

At minimum both maps and vehicles should be at 10 pixels per meter to match (closer) the soldiers (10 to 12 depending on the pose). Or maps should be at 10 pixels per meter and soldiers/vehicles at 15?

#22: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Sbufkle, Location: Canada

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:19 pm
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I never liked angled view buildings or vehicles. Its a top down game after all.

Yes it does take alot of extra work to do angles, but thats not why I dont like them, becuase then everything on a map should be realisitically angled..

#23: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: mooxe,

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:15 pm
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CSO_Sbufkle wrote (View Post):

I never liked angled view buildings or vehicles. Its a top down game after all.

Yes it does take alot of extra work to do angles, but thats not why I dont like them, becuase then everything on a map should be realisitically angled..

Well... thats not a great arguement at all. Because its top down you should not be able to see any sides? We are not going to debate over what top down means. Many top down 2D games do have some representation of height, sides or angles. And from the last four installments of CC from Atomic, they intended to represent that well. I suppose in a top down game when a tank goes down a hill, you will see the tanks rear end right?

I doubt anyone (or anymore than two) has really given this a serious go to make it work. If Atomic could do it 12 years ago, then I could assume theres applications out there to make it much easier.

We have over 10 versions of Close Combat now, thats one version every year almost. Take a step back and put more of the focus on quality rather than speed.

#24: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:41 pm
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Funny wobbly tanks does not a quality visual experience make....

Nor does some weird buildings with random walls sticking out...

I live on a hill, using google earth I see the top of my car not the back....

You probably think your wife is beautiful whereas I think she runs second to mine.

#25: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: vonB,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:37 am
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It's an artificial top down anyway. There's no perspective or parallax. If you are looking down on the middle, then you should start to see the sides facing you as the distances regress. It's really a virtual Map made to come alive with representational graphics.

I remember when I got EYSA. I liked the game, but interestingly ended up playing it a la CC, that is zooming out to the birds eye view to play from there, even though you could get down to ground level. For me, it's the closest so far to a CC experience in another game, and I put that down to the Mad Bunny. You know, I might even wield it out again sometime just for a small diversion...

#26: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: mooxe,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:47 am
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The debate is not about why these graphics have been omitted. We already know, its a shortcut. They were not omitted because CC is better off without them. If the vehicle graphics seem wobbly then its because the change in graphics are not subtle enough. These were features that added more depth to the decision making of the tactical phase.

Should you know the state of a tanks angle without clicking on it?

Do you want to know where the doors are on the west and south sides of a building before entering without clicking on it?

In the remakes, many of the original tanks kept the tilted images. So really, if it detracted from the game why werent they removed? It sounds like they were not removed because they are better than a single flat top view. The reason for not making the new tanks with the titled image set was because its too hard and takes too long - but in case that reason isnt good enough throw "its not realistic" or something in there as well.

I know that SL can stamp out maps pretty quick, and the guys drawing the vehicles are very good at that to. There is certainly a comfort zone there and a feeling that the work is good enough. It is good but it can get better. Besides drawing more interesting looking houses, maps or vehicles the only graphics update this game can see with its current engine is going back to what Atomic did with the tilted/angle graphics.

#27: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:32 am
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Personally I see it as a non-issue.

The graphics you describe neither add nor subtract from the game, in my opinion.

Whether they are there or not is just a curiosity.

#28: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: southern_land,

Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 1:39 am
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Okay take the other view then, asthetics aside (and thats debateable) what gaming value does tilted graphics provide? It doesn't give you a better indication of building height that the floor numbers stamped on the roof.

"Do you want to know where the doors are on the west and south sides of a building before entering without clicking on it? "

Thats a misleading statement in many ways too as it neglects entry points on the northern and eastern sides of a structure. If the graphics ned to show this then they should show it on all sides. Best way of sgowing entry points to a lot of buildings is by adding doorstels, paths of worn trails to those entries

Even in cc5 titled buildings aren't used exclusively I've just popped Acequvlle open and of the 16 buildings 5 have no discernable tilt, even two story structures.

probably also need to ask the question if Cc could have buildings of 10 floors should we see 10 floors worth of tilt or would that just look silly?

#29: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:11 pm
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First off, nice discussion...lots of responses in only 3+ days.

When RTBTool came out, I made a keyframe sequence for LW that would render the 17 different tilted images for vehicles. This was based on the 17 keyframes that Atomic originally used when rendering their 3d models in 3DS. I've never used it beyond testing for a couple of reasons.

1. I had never before noticed the tilting in the game, so it obviously didn't add that much to the game for me.
2. The lack of detail that comes with rendering vehicles at the CC scale with the animation was not worth it to me. I found that I preferred the higher detail over the animation...with pt#1 above being the main reason. Now, if the standard scale was the zoom scale of CC3 then perhaps my attitude might change.
3. The terrain doesn't actually have an effect on the animation. It is a straight 17 frame animation. You can being driving down a flat road, and you still see the tilting/rocking/rolling animation.

For the 'floating' issue...that can be addressed with Mafi's VehShadEdit tool...if a person wants to take the time to make the shadow as good as possible.

For buildings, well, that's obviously up to the mapmakers. I like to render the buildings and as many structures as possible on my maps in LW, in order to give them the slight 3d effect...but the main reason I do it that way is to provide them with accurate shadowing.

#30: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:39 pm
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Quote:

The terrain doesn't actually have an effect on the animation.

The elevation is what makes the animation change, even a 1 meter difference in elevation tilts the vehicle. I tried this to see what triggered the different frames, I ran a Sherman from CC5 through a road that seemed flat but changed elevations and the tank tilted a little, you notice it more when crushing hedgerows or driving on a hill.

#31: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: vonB,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:21 pm
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Quote:

probably also need to ask the question if Cc could have buildings of 10 floors should we see 10 floors worth of tilt or would that just look silly?

If CC is going to have such perspectives, then it needs a virtual camera view (like EYSA). Unless this is implemented as a Core System Function, then I would leave CC as it is.

However, what I WOULD like to be able to do is to manage Teams in multi-floor buildings. Right now if a Team enters a 4 storey building, they automatically go to the first fourth floor. Not only that, they seem to be able to get up to the fourth floor amazingly quickly and start firing, and can almost teleport out they leave so fast. Don't know about you, but it takes a few seconds to shinny up 3 flights of stairs, and that's without combat gear!!!

I can see the challanges in getting it to work (which is why it probably was not done). It would be easy to have a marker (floor number) with the Team, but what do you do about 2 Teams in the same building on different floors? And then there's multi-floor LOS to calculate.

#32: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:26 pm
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In CCMT the delay in reaching the fourth floor was modelled by

1. Buildings could only be accessed by Doors and Windows.

2. Each new level of access eg Wood Door level 2 had an ever increasing movement rate penalty

This avoided the instantaneous teleporting of earlier versions of CC

#33: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: CSO_Linebacker,

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:57 pm
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You may see it, but what I was saying, is that it is just a typical animation loop like any other in CC, whether the terrain is coded the same elevation or not. When you run that sherman on a road where the elevation is all the same, you still see the tilting/rocking/rolling

#34: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:11 pm
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CSO_Linebacker wrote (View Post):

When you run that sherman on a road where the elevation is all the same, you still see the tilting/rocking/rolling

I don't think so, no tilting observed on flat terrain I just checked again and tilting actually occurs at changes of half a meter. It is no loop, the elevation is what determines the graphic if there's no graphic, Image0000 is used I think.

#35: Re: Players Debate - Tilted/Angled Graphics Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:38 am
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Have to disagree CSO_Linebacker.... I once selected 15 of the same tank and CC5 selected the right graphic for the elevation change based on the ground I sat the tank on during the deployment phase.

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