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#61: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:24 am
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Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

multi storey walls in tLD have a movement reduction for infantry that makes the sodliers go out and run by the street and get massacred instead of following a path of a row of buildings. I much preferred 'normal' CC buildings, yeah the soldiers go through walls, but the AI currently isn't that advanced that they can learn to use doors, so if you code walls impassable or have them reduce movement, it becomes a huge mess in urban maps.

Perhaps, its a matter of taste. But I still use CCMT elements, and of course, the points you mention sound like game FEATURES to me.

In old CC5 you could run down the row of buildings, not good. Now, they correctly leave the building and re-enter somewhere else. Its a blast to play on the small CC4 maps, nowdays, because of this feature alone.

Also, I have basically one modern urban map (its Desert), and my observations do not account for this massacre you describe, and in particular I do not see the AI having any difficulty at all entereing or leaving buildings or setting up machine guns, etc...

#62: Re: GJS for tLD Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:50 am
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

The problem Pzt_Kanov was talking about was in TLD, and caused by windows coded with high values (in the hundreds), and walls being coded below 40. When soldiers moved down streets ... they would pass through doors, and walls but would get stuck moving through these hard to pass through windows. Thus making them seemingly confused, separated, and less protected.

As for CCMT elements ... try moving teams through a map like Bayeux, with that elements file.

Last edited by davidssfx on Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:32 am; edited 1 time in total

#63: Re: GJS for tLD Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:06 am
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walls take 3 x longer to go through than doors... so the men usually choose doors

#64: Re: GJS for tLD Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:36 am
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schrecken wrote (View Post):

walls take 3 x longer to go through than doors... so the men usually choose doors

yes, because of the way they are coded

Soldier Move: Low, Med, High

Doors: 25, 15, 10

Wood, Brick, Stone Walls ... all levels: 40, 35, 30

#65: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:22 pm
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davidssfx: currently testing with your elements. Seems to be playing pretty well. Thanks.

#66: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:21 am
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davidssfx wrote (View Post):

As for CCMT elements ... try moving teams through a map like Bayeux, with that elements file.

Well, I am not trying to tell anyone what elements they should use or like.

Also, the map coding itself can be the issue much of the time. Custom maps from CC2-CC5 era alwasy seemed to be the main culprits. Thats one of the reasons why I wanted to collect original CC maps first for my CCMT map collection.

But, I have played on many URBAN type maps. Or village maps. That was the point I was making. Many, many, CC4, CC5, and I have a nice thread in CCMT forum on a really nice CCMT Urban map that works flawlessly IMHO.

#67: Re: GJS for tLD Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:25 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

davidssfx wrote (View Post):

As for CCMT elements ... try moving teams through a map like Bayeux, with that elements file.

Hi Stwa,
I don't have CCMT ... so am not sure what results you get when using the elements file from that version of CC.
When I said:
"As for CCMT elements ... try moving teams through a map like Bayeux, with that elements file"
... I was wondering if you could do this and relate what results you get.

From what I've heard (thanks to explanations from Neil) about CCMT ... it is based on modern combat, and so was coded to represent a high level of realism regarding movement through buildings.

Last year when I first got TLD, I wanted to change the wall code so that soldiers couldn't pass through walls ... but only through windows and doors. At this time I learned about the various levels of hindrance to movement through windows that can be portrayed in CC. If you make it harder to pass through a window (equals slower soldier speed) then in effect you can simulate a soldier taking more time to climb out of a higher story building (although the soldiers animation is still the same ... walking, not climbing).
I was able to code the walls solid, and was content with the results. I realized this may cause teams to get separated, but figured a player just needed to manage these teams more closely in order to adapt to this new realism.
It was then brought to my attention that, with walls being solid (and coded to block all Line of Sight), ... only soldiers in windows and doors could get Line of Sight. This is a considerable set back in CC, due to MG teams not setting up in these limited window and door spaces in priority of fire power. So, you may have one rifle man (of a five man team) shooting out of a window ... and the MG and the rest of the team doing nothing. CC isn't smart enough to have the team divide itself up and each take a window.
But CC does allow Line of Sight through a wall (kind of), when soldiers are adjacent (directly beside). This allows more Line of Sight out of a building, when a team is gathered at a wall window. This can also be helped by making MG teams smaller, so they have an easier time of getting the MG into firing position (but still requires repositioning).
I modded solid walls and smaller MG teams into TLD and gave it a try. It seemed better to me, even though more care was needed to keep teams from getting separated. This could be dealt with by using more detailed way points and shorter routes ... as well as checking back frequently.
But then I tried it on the Bayeux map. And that's when I realized it was not going to work well enough for what most players would accept. With so many walls and buildings close together ... teams got all messed up, real fast.
So I went back to the stock wall, door, and window code for TLD ... coming to realize that the developers made the best decision for coding them ... for best game play results.
I didn't notice the windows were coded with high hindrance levels though (much higher than walls even) ... and so just recently changed that, so it makes better logical sense ... which results in better game play (imo).

That being said ... I think solid walls and high levels of hindrance (moving slow through) windows are best for demonstrating higher realism. So, in a modern setting, or in a mod where realism is top priority ... this may be preferred.

I personally like the elements (in TLD) that I just made minor changes to.
Until CC is able to represent different stories in a building ... then I think this is best.
As it is now in CC ... soldiers automatically are on the highest level (story) of a building, upon entry. This works well for Line of Sight ... but it doesn't represent lower level entry/exit points that a soldier can move through. So, with this limitation ... when a soldier enters/exits a building ... it just makes sense to think of it as if he/she has done so on ground level.
Therefore it makes logical sense for soldiers to move through these lower level entry/exit points at a relative real world ground level speeds ... rather than ultra slow speeds representing higher levels.
As for soldiers being able to sometimes move through walls ... it is a compromise, due to the games limited abilities. But, as coded now ... soldiers mostly move through windows and doors, but if a soldier in forced (for whatever reason) to pass through a wall element ... then it is at a reduced speed (simulating a small penalty). Coded this way also allows for better group Line of Sight (when adjacent), as mentioned above.
Having walls coded for a soldier to pass through (although rarely) and windows with highest levels maxed at the wall value, I believe is a decent compromise ... since a soldier will lag back a bit from his team when encountering these slightly higher hindrance walls and windows ... but for the most part a team won't become completely separated.

#68: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:18 am
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Interesting hearing about your testing davidssfx.

If/when Matrix release the next TLD patch with the LSA path finding improvements it might be worth testing again....

#69: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:40 am
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davidssfx wrote (View Post):

Well, this is the TLD/GJS thread and I am sure you are on the right track.

But I will take you up on your suggestion and I will post some stuff over in the CCMT forum that I think might surprise a few people.

#70: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:16 pm
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davidssfx-- great post.

Your element file is working great. It feels like soldiers are taking a reasonable amount of time to move through and take positions in buildings. It slows movement down a tad in dense urban areas and it seems much more reasonable as a result.

GJS 4.4 many of the maps where there are clustered areas of dense buildings, there are few if any windows--just walls and few doors. This was intentionally done at the time to give soldiers better cover, and more realistic combat results (more certain of this as memory is jerked back by focused thought on this issue). It made Atilla and I crazy that soldiers and tanks were firing through entire multi-story buildings(windows) as if they were empty, open warehouses. Multiple windows and doors just get funny with the tiny buildings of GJS and old CC (compared to LSA which is a new ballgame).

Different players see/experience/want different things, but this approach will be preserved for the beta release, with your elements file, with your permission and proper credit, of course.

#71: Re: GJS for tLD Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:07 am
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Cathartes wrote (View Post):

davidssfx-- great post.

Your element file is working great. It feels like soldiers are taking a reasonable amount of time to move through and take positions in buildings. It slows movement down a tad in dense urban areas and it seems much more reasonable as a result.

GJS 4.4 many of the maps where there are clustered areas of dense buildings, there are few if any windows--just walls and few doors. This was intentionally done at the time to give soldiers better cover, and more realistic combat results (more certain of this as memory is jerked back by focused thought on this issue). It made Atilla and I crazy that soldiers and tanks were firing through entire multi-story buildings(windows) as if they were empty, open warehouses. Multiple windows and doors just get funny with the tiny buildings of GJS and old CC (compared to LSA which is a new ballgame).

Different players see/experience/want different things, but this approach will be preserved for the beta release, with your elements file, with your permission and proper credit, of course.

Hi Cathartes,
Thanks for your comments and extra GJS info.
Glad to hear you're thinking of using it for GJS Smile

I've attached the latest version, that has "Bocage" changed to "Large Hedgerow" values.
This way, any large type looking hedge will produce the same results when acted upon. And also allows ATG's to be deployed in Bocage

Last edited by davidssfx on Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total

#72: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:33 pm
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Any updates Cathartes? a couple of screenshots to ease the waiting would be cool.

#73: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:36 pm
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Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):

Any updates Cathartes? a couple of screenshots to ease the waiting would be cool.

here's the new main screen. progress continues.

newsplash.jpg

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#74: Re: GJS for tLD Author: mooxe,

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:38 pm
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Mainscreen changes will affect online play at Gameranger. I think Schrecken and Davidssfx figured this out.

#75: Re: GJS for tLD Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:51 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Mainscreen changes will affect online play at Gameranger. I think Schrecken and Davidssfx figured this out.

Seems to be true.
I had to abandon my new main screen theme for the Ground Tactics mod, in order for the mod to work with Game Ranger (GR).
If you change any TLD screens that GR has to go through, in the connection process ... then GR won't connect.
The screens GR uses are ... Intro, Main, Multi Player.
After reaching the limit of time I was willing to put into this ... it was determined that replacing just one of those three screens would cause GR not to connect.
If you unpack the CCImages file and keep the original, and then repack ... it still worked ... so that ruled out the unpack/repack process as the culprit.
Put in one new screen and it wouldn't work
Add text to the original ... and it still worked

It's a real head scratcher

After hours and hours of trying to figure out why ... with no definite answer ... I had to surrender, and go back to TLD original screens.
I was able to add "Ground Tactics" text to both the Main and Multi Player screens (for mod identification) ... and still have Game Ranger work.

I would prefer to have the ease of Game Ranger connection without new screens ... than have no Game Ranger, with new screens.
Kind of choked me, after all the effort that was put into the new screens ... but, oh well ...
Game Ranger also requires the ModSwap Plugin version.

Another option would be to have a Game Ranger edition of the mod using ModSwap without new screens, and a ModInstaller version with new screens ... that doesn't work with GR.

Unless, of course, someone can figure out why GR jams up with new screens ...
If you do try and figure out the problem ... you may want to first start by replacing just the Main screen of TLD's CCImages file, and see if it connects.
Apparently mafi's program was used for TLD to unpack/repack ... so it may be best to use it.

In testing ... always try twice, if first time stalls. Sometimes the very first time after a mod is installed ... it stalls, but works fine thereafter.

#76: Re: GJS for tLD Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:21 am
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mooxe

haven't you had any contact with the GR guy regarding a fix?

or at least an explanation why it isn't working... so we can work around that.

thanks

#77: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:56 am
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Maybe it has to do with the Main menu buttons? like if you change them a little bit they probably don't work or something.

Any ways, that's a good looking screen Cathartes, hope you got a few surprises for us!

#78: Re: GJS for tLD Author: mooxe,

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:31 am
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schrecken wrote (View Post):

mooxe

haven't you had any contact with the GR guy regarding a fix?

or at least an explanation why it isn't working... so we can work around that.

thanks

I have not. I am happy with the current state of it and do not wish to spend anymore time asking him about it. If all that needs to be done is to leave the main screen and multiplayer screen alone to have this work, that is the easiest solution.

#79: Re: GJS for tLD Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:22 am
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But a not very Graphically or Mod friendly solution.

#80: Re: GJS for tLD Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:49 pm
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Would be nice Mooxe if you used your contact/influence to get a fix as losing mod specific background graphics is not a good solution (makes it much less apparent to newbies what they are running).

Without a fix, email and or messenger will be what I continue to use when playing online. Though nobody else will see those who play that way thinking CC is dead for online play....

GameRanger comments/discussion is probably best in another thread as this thread is for GJS on TLD! Thank you for the updates Cathartes and for coming back to move/update the mod for the newer CC version!!!!

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