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#1: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Blackstump, Location: Hunter Valley Australia

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:12 am
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This post is inspired by a recent CCs survey.
I note that a small majority have pushed the fanatic count to the lead in the poll. I find this interesting.
Fanatic by definition usally applies to those who have (or suffers from) a religous fervour. I dont believe that the average SS soldier was a fanatic. Maybe Hitler had some esoteric bent, but im sure his religion was left of Atillas. I would class the average WW2 Japanese soldier as a fanatic.
No doubt some SS soldiers where terroists but since they were uniformed regular soldiers probably sadists would be a better description. These are found in all armies and all walks of life.
So for mine the majority were just patriots like most armies.
Which brings me to my Question for the community.
Religious fanatic v Political fanatic v Warrior class fanatic
Just to quallify this, which is the biggest global threat ?
Is the Muslim minority hardliners with a large moderate Muslim community as a possible back up, our worst threat to world peace. Those i would call Religous fanatics. Or could Iran or North Korea be the real threat of tommorow. Those i would call Political fanatics. Or maybe its China with its fast expanding power and the worlds largest army the latter probably qualifying for a warrior nation these days.
I dont really know the demographic of this community but i dont see to many Muslim countries represented here but i know theres a few and i would like to know there oppinions we also had at least one in the community from Iran but havent heard from him for a long time North Koreans im not sure about.

#2: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: pagskier,

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:11 pm
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I would say that when you're getting a religious fanatic, it's because religion has gone into the Political scene.

SO I would say Political Fanatic

Bin Ladem Islam is politics, So is jewish terrorists, so does Iran revolution gards, Hezbollah,etc

Those are quite the same as SS units, NKVD units in WW2.

The solider recieve a political course + the usual solider courses.

#3: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:12 pm
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uh.. paragraphs dingo lover.. paragraphs!

#4: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:49 pm
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Quote:

Those are quite the same as SS units, NKVD units in WW2.

what is the connection between SS and NKVD?

#5: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:20 pm
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Quote:

I would class the average WW2 Japanese soldier as a fanatic.

I think you are drawing a rather long bow there too.

Average is far less than Fanatic

#6: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: kawasaky, Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:34 pm
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Blackstump wrote (View Post):

This post is inspired by a recent CCs survey.
Fanatic by definition usally applies to those who have (or suffers from) a religous fervour.

The definition seems incomplete. It incorporates also a political zeal, not just religious. Fanatic is the one who has no understanding (or if the fanatic is in power than"tolerance") for contrary opinions and/or beliefs.

Quote:

I dont believe that the average SS soldier was a fanatic. Maybe Hitler had some esoteric bent, but im sure his religion was left of Atillas. I would class the average WW2 Japanese soldier as a fanatic.

Since the SS was involved in genocide and persecution on racial and political level, it is more than justified to call them fanatics. I don't hesitate to take a step further and label them TERRORISTS because one of their principal tools was fear. Also, the SS cannot be looked upon as a fragmented organization as many people see it. No sir! Allgemeine SS and Waffen SS are all parts of one big happy, sick family. There are their next to kin to deal with too: Gestapo, Totenkopfverbände, Einsatzgruppen and others. Arguably, the W-SS was the least criminal of all other parts of the organization, but criminal nevertheless. There are but 3-4 SS divisions without records of war crimes, crimes against humanity etc. It is well justified that the SS is labeled as a criminal organization.
Hitler had no esoteric ideas. You are mixing him with Himmler, whom Hitler rediculed because of those [esoteric ideas]. And he was a catholic [Hitler].
Japanese are different story, and cannot be judged through the western prism, although they WERE fanatics, terrorists and often criminals.

Quote:

No doubt some SS soldiers where terroists but since they were uniformed regular soldiers probably sadists would be a better description. These are found in all armies and all walks of life.

Check the Hague Convention. Uniform and other criteria can only distinguish regular and irregular fighters. Uniform speaks nothing about terror[ism], and sadism is only a tool of a terror. And it is a fallacy to regard the W-SS as "regular soldiers". Wehrmacht were regulars. SS was the party's militia.

Quote:

Is the Muslim minority hardliners with a large moderate Muslim community as a possible back up, our worst threat to world peace. Those i would call Religous fanatics.

Islamism is an ideology, loosely based on religion as the greater majority of Muslims comprehend it, and live it. The problem is next, Islam is not "just" a religion, it is a way of life. Islam tends to influence a society as a whole. Therefore, it is impossible to divide religious and secular moments in Islam, unlike in Christianity. And when I already mentioned it, secularism in the West started very late. Only with the end of the Thirty-years War.
In short, the answer is no. The majority of Muslims despise Islamists, and in spite of the uneducated, incompetent and often outright lying western media, an average Muslim doesn't walk around with Kalashnikov eager to kill the Westerners! Also, in spite of the uneducated, incompetent and often outright lying western media, the West isn't the primary target of the Islamists - their primary targets are their domestic countries who are husbanding regimes much more in accordance with the true teaching of Islam, than Islamists can ever be. Therefore no Muslim majority will support Islamists ever.

Quote:

Or could Iran or North Korea be the real threat of tommorow. Those i would call Political fanatics. Or maybe its China with its fast expanding power and the worlds largest army the latter probably qualifying for a warrior nation these days.

I don't think that N.K. or China are dangerous militarily. China has nothing to gain with war. Remember, within past 20 years the new term Chimerica appeared. No more about that.
And because of that N.K. will never get the Chinese support if they chose to make trouble. All China has to do is to deny them food and there will be N.K. no more. Fuckem! Those poor people will eventually rise against that criminal regime, and then the rest of the world must come to their support.
Iran? I don't believe that they will cause trouble. Ahmadinejad just talks, but that's Persia. The craddle of civilisation. I cant imagine that they will be the one to destroy it. Even if they would, who is directly responsible for the 1979 revolution(?). Look on the western shores of the Atlantic.

My guess is that the biggest threat will remain the same one as for the past 500 years. The West.

#7: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:45 pm
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Whole German armed forces were a fucking criminal organization. They just got off lightly because they were needed for the Cold War.

#8: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:40 pm
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Let me see if I got this anti-German crusade right?

-Every German citizens, from 1933 to present days are guilty of the war-crimes committed during WWII?
-The entire German 'army' (including Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS) are guilty of war-crimes and holocaust, regardless if they committed any or not?

Rolling Eyes

Have you forgotten the Nuremberg Trials? The Germans have already been trialled, sentenced or freed from all allegations. (under more, or less, correct forms...)

Wikipedia, Nuremberg Trials

What about war-crimes, atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Allied during WWII? Have there ever been a Nuremberg Trial about that?

No, because the Allied were the 'Good Guys', and 'Good Guys' don't commits crimes... Even now, 66 years after it happened they can sit in international television and say: "...we didn't take any prisoners, since we were so upset about the beach..." (from the documentary 'Bloody Omaha') and no one reacts about the fact that they didn't followed the Third Geneva Convention. I showed my US-loving sister another example of this from the capturing of the Nijmegen bridge, when they killed POW's, murdered and threw wounded Germans in the river, and her reaction was something many people here would say too: "Well, they were only Germans..."

The Western Allied have a 70-year old tradition of terror-bombing their opponents to submission. It has gone from the kindergarten-mentality of WWII that "They started it, look a Spain, Warsaw and Rotterdam" to modern, so called, "surgical-strikes", but it is the same terror-bombings that was a crime when the Germans did it...

GW Bush used lies about WMD to invade Iraq; -But one of the few country that have used WMD in an armed conflict is USA! With excuses about saving lives and shortening the war, Harry S. Truman, USAF and the USAAF committed crimes against humanity when they bombed two Japanese towns, civilian targets, deliberately saved from the rest of the terror-bombing campaign in order to evaluate the new weapon :!:

Fanatics and terrorism comes in many forms; -open your eyes and look around before you beat your chest and claim that your side is the 'Good Guys'! I'm glad that I don't have to salute with my right arm raised and a 'Heil Hitler' today, but does that mean that all crimes committed to achieve that are forgiven? Hate me if you like, call me a Nazi (which I'm not!) or flame me; -But in a war or any other armed conflict, there are no 'good' or 'bad' guys.

#9: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:35 pm
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

Let me see if I got this anti-German crusade right?

No, it's a crusade against Nazi Germany, more precisely against German war of aggression.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

-Every German citizens, from 1933 to present days are guilty of the war-crimes committed during WWII?

Nice strawman.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

-The entire German 'army' (including Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS) are guilty of war-crimes and holocaust, regardless if they committed any or not?

Nice try to whitewash the history and hiding behind Holocaust and so called "war crimes". Do you have trouble comprehending why participating in German war of aggression was fucking evil?
WWII was about German soldiers illegally crossing borders of other countries, murdering government servicemen trying to stop them, destroying government property, murdering civilians with bombs and artillery, destroying unimaginable amounts of private property, mass robbery, mass kidnappings, slavery, etc.
The rest was attempt to stop them and to make them give back what they have stolen.

While I can sympathize with German soldiers that fought because they were forced to fight, I absolutely condemn those who participated in German wars of aggression because of stuff like "duty", "honour", "patriotism", "nationalism", etc. or enjoyed the idea of German conquest in any way.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

-But in a war or any other armed conflict, there are no 'good' or 'bad' guys.

There are bad guys. Those who start wars of aggression and those who willingly participate in them.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

What about war-crimes, atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Allied during WWII? Have there ever been a Nuremberg Trial about that?

For the same reason why no one pursued North Vietnamise war criminals, Soviet war criminals, Chinese war criminals, etc. It's very hard to pursue such criminals that are within existing power structures. So, pursuing Allied war criminals would require defeating Allied powers (or these other countries). It would have to involve someone starting a war or uprising about it, which would be quite counter-productive and would create even more innocent victims.
So, Nuremberg trials were basically an exception - it happened just because there was an opportunity. Sadly, in most of cases there wasn't such opportunity.

There's whole North Korean regime that starves it's own citizens and it's practically impossible to bring it to justice or even stop it from doing that.

There were a lot of protests against western wars, but sadly, they didn't lead to any serious investigation.
But hey, I remember reading some story about Polish mercenaries in Iraq defending some base and most of Polish comments were comparing them to SS soldiers murdering citizens of Warsaw during Warsaw uprising, solely on basis of them being on foreign soil. So, it's not like there's any special anti-German hypocrisy going around here.

#10: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:51 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):

No, it's a crusade against Nazi Germany, more precisely against German war of aggression.

Isn't all wars wars of aggression? Wink

-There have been many wars of aggression since WWII, why are all people so quick to condemn Nazi-Germany, while another country can start them over and over again with the silent-approval from the rest of the world? My answer: "winners-and-loosers", money and rhetoric...

Therion wrote (View Post):

I have never, and will never, whitewash the crimes committed by Nazi-Germany! Adolf was a sick puppy, and the crimes committed due to him should never be forgotten. The risk if we forget is another dogmatic leader like Adolf may rise again somewhere and do it all over again.

My point is that there were an unique situation after WWII, with the Nuremberg Trials, so the majority of those guilty of crimes were trialled. We can't keep blaming Germany and those who were born in 'the wrong country' for decade after decade. It's been 65 since the war ended, it's maybe time to forgive and forget some parts of what happened? And maybe we should take the leaf from our eyes? All participants committed crimes, it's the human nature of war to do that...

Therion wrote (View Post):

While I can sympathize with German soldiers that fought because they were forced to fight, I absolutely condemn those who participated in German wars of aggression because of stuff like "duty", "honour", "patriotism", "nationalism", etc. or enjoyed the idea of German conquest in any way.

If those aren't reasons to fight a war, aggressive or not, we better scrap every army in the world. (A good idea on its own, but not a realistic one...) Ask any soldier and that's the reasons he thinks he fights; -Unless he's a cold-hearted realist and does it for money. Any army is indoctrinated with words like "duty", "honour", "patriotism", "nationalism", etc.

But I can agree with your condemnation of those that "...enjoyed the idea of German conquest in any way..."; -but that goes for anyone who think that's a legitimate reason to wage war!

Therion wrote (View Post):

There are bad guys. Those who start wars of aggression and those who willingly participate in them.

And when the 'Good Guys' turns bad? Are they still good, since the end justifies the means? And are all 'Bad Guys' really bad? There were a Swed during WWII that became a Concentration-camp guard, not because he hated Jews or was a hard-core Nazi. -He wanted to go to Germany and become a policeman, since he admired the German society, but once there he ended up as a guard against his intentions since he had applied to SS-vt without knowing it...

#11: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:01 pm
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Quote:

The entire German 'army' (including Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS) are guilty of war-crimes and holocaust, regardless if they committed any or not?

it depends on what u are calling war-crimes.. if killing of civies on purpose is a war crime? Yes, then entire German Army is affected.

Quote:

Have you forgotten the Nuremberg Trials? The Germans have already been trialled, sentenced or freed from all allegations. (under more, or less, correct forms...)

how come one could be so naive? :)

Quote:

What about war-crimes, atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Allied during WWII? Have there ever been a Nuremberg Trial about that

in comparison to the German atrocities they are nothing..

Quote:

The Western Allied have a 70-year old tradition of terror-bombing their opponents to submission.

ok, the soviets didn;'t do that to the gerries, they didn't even use chems to stop them in 1941 and then they got that Stal bombing...

Quote:

GW Bush used lies about WMD to invade Iraq; -But one of the few country that have used WMD in an armed conflict is USA!

haha, so true for A.Hitler and his army Wink

Quote:

There were a Swed during WWII that became a Concentration-camp guard, not because he hated Jews or was a hard-core Nazi. -He wanted to go to Germany and become a policeman, since he admired the German society, but once there he ended up as a guard against his intentions since he had applied to SS-vt without knowing it...

there were much more sweds fighing in SS against USSR. If you check CSO site, i quoted number of sweds hold as POW in 1946.
Hopefully, Wiking has very fast people turnover on EF Smile

#12: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:40 pm
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He! Very Happy

Flame-war with everyone! Wink

-Maybe another angle of 'fanatics'?

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

Have you forgotten the Nuremberg Trials? The Germans have already been trialled, sentenced or freed from all allegations. (under more, or less, correct forms...)

how come one could be so naive? Smile

So, should I interpret that as a question of the validity of the Nuremberg Trials? Surprised

I know that it wasn't just the leading nazis that were trialled there, many other German crimes were prosecuted there as well. Maybe we can agree that it was a show for the galleries as much as it was a case of justice?

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

What about war-crimes, atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Allied during WWII? Have there ever been a Nuremberg Trial about that

in comparison to the German atrocities they are nothing..

Can atrocities and crimes be graded? If the 'Good Guys' kills a POW, it's less of a crime than if a nazi does it? -Didn't the Allies go to war to fight for human rights and freedom? And I'm not talking about the Holocaust or aggressive war here, I'm talking about crimes against the Geneva Convention, rap, murder, pillaging, terror-bombings etc.

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

GW Bush used lies about WMD to invade Iraq; -But one of the few country that have used WMD in an armed conflict is USA!

haha, so true for A.Hitler and his army Wink

Maybe you can enlighten me here Dima? I've heard rumours about casualty-numbers on the Eastern Front that indicates the use of gas, but did any side ever use it? We all know 'Grossfa' Adolf was crazy enough to use The Bomb if he had got one, even if the war was lost. But what about gas?

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

there were much more sweds fighing in SS against USSR. If you check CSO site, i quoted number of sweds hold as POW in 1946.
Hopefully, Wiking has very fast people turnover on EF Smile

'Mea culpa'
-As a Swed I live in the biggest brown-nosing country in the free world! There wasn't a country in the entire Europe in the 1930-40 that were as nazified as Sweden (except for Germany). But all of a sudden, after Stalingrad, we turned our cape after the wind and became Allied-friendly, keeping our nazi-sympathies to ourselves, and ever since the end of WWII every Swedish military system developed have been NATO-compatible (by some strange reason..) Wink

A quick look at Feldgrau tells us that some 300 Swedes joined the Rich for the fightings one the Eastern Front, and I'm even less proud of the fact that it was Swedish and Dutch SS-men that fought in the last battle for Berlin...
But I saw a bock a few years ago about the Swedes that fought for the Allied (sadly I bought a crappy book about SS instead) according to review of the other book some 8000 Swedes joined the Allies if you included those that worked in the trade-fleet!

Why I mentioned this guy, was to point out a 'Bad Guys' that didn't mean to become that. All he wanted to do was to patrol the streets and keep order in a system he admired, sadly he was a dumb-f**k and didn't knew what he enlisted for...

#13: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:43 pm
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

Therion wrote (View Post):

No, it's a crusade against Nazi Germany, more precisely against German war of aggression.

Isn't all wars wars of aggression? Wink

Not everyone in wars of aggression is an aggressor.
There are also victims and some are defenders.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

How about another explanation - people forgetting about the main crime of WWII - the very WWII itself, thus being unable to judge these other wars of aggressions as evil, criminal and unacceptable?

Also, have you missed all the anti-war demonstrations?

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

You're trying to whitewash the German war of aggression.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

My point is that there were an unique situation after WWII, with the Nuremberg Trials, so the majority of those guilty of crimes were trialled.

Do you seriously believe in justice of courts and politics Laughing

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

My point is that there were an unique situation after WWII, with the Nuremberg Trials, so the majority of those guilty of crimes were trialled. We can't keep blaming Germany and those who were born in 'the wrong country' for decade after decade. It's been 65 since the war ended, it's maybe time to forgive and forget some parts of what happened?

Ok. Let's forget Holocaust and concentration camps.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

Nice attempt of sidestepping the issue. You keep talking about Holocaust and so called war crimes to pull the attention away from the German war of aggression which was conducted mainly by Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. It was the supreme crime without which these little "war crimes" would have never happened.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

How about self-defence, protection of innocents, etc. etc. etc?

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

And are all 'Bad Guys' really bad? There were a Swed during WWII that became a Concentration-camp guard, not because he hated Jews or was a hard-core Nazi. -He wanted to go to Germany and become a policeman, since he admired the German society, but once there he ended up as a guard against his intentions since he had applied to SS-vt without knowing it...

It's like someone who becomes a gangster because he likes gangsta-rap.

#14: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:37 pm
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Quotes upon quotes, I'll try and answer without them...

Every war must start with an aggression, if we could talk or just sit on our own side of the border and flex there wouldn't be any wars.

And yes, the people on the streets demonstrates against the war, then they listen to the political rhetoric of those supporting the war (the self-good, lying, political-bastards in our governments) and votes for them another mandate-period. Sadly, every democracy today is a joke; -It's not the people that rules a country today, it is the money! (and I'll guess that it answers your question if I believe in "justice of courts and politics"?) But, I'm no the one that claims I'm the self-righteous one who defend democracy and freedom. I'm just a grumpy old man that wants people to look beyond the 'truth' they feed us with. And if that means I have to defend the 'wrong side' to create a debate and make people think, so be it.

I'm quite sure I said that we never can forget what happened between 1933-45? We can never forget the Holocaust, the concentration camps, the build-up of the German war of aggression! If we do that we open the door for another Hitler, "a people without history is a people easy to mislead". What I mean is that we can't keep bashing the Germans for what happened over 60 years ago, they don't have a genetic liability for WWII. And you can't blame every soldiers of the Riech for what some of them did with the approval and orders of the system; -Just as little as you can blame the entire US Army for what have happened in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, or every muslim for what some fanatics have done.

It is the nature of an armed force to follow order without discussion. If you don't do it, you are committing a crime, just as much as if you follows an order to murder civilians or bomb a village. The problem for a soldier is the fact that he is bound to follow orders, but he can't use the fact that he followed orders as a defence if he commits a crime...

Self-defence and protection of innocents are beautiful words and a just cause to fight, but sadly you don't here those words very often when professional soldiers talks about why they are fighting. "Even the old Greeks" talked about honour, duty and patriotism, nationalism came much later with the creation of the National states as we know them today. I'm not only defending the Prussian officers who fought for Hitler under those banners, but every soldier that are broken into believing that: -Werther it is before or after enlisting.

#15: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: kawasaky, Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:02 am
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

It is the nature of an armed force to follow order without discussion. If you don't do it, you are committing a crime, just as much as if you follows an order to murder civilians or bomb a village. The problem for a soldier is the fact that he is bound to follow orders, but he can't use the fact that he followed orders as a defence if he commits a crime...

I don't agree that you must follow all and every order [without a discussion]. What about illegal orders? Maybe the German soldiers could have shot f.e. captured partisans because they regarded them as "the bandits" under the German law, but G, signed international treaties that state otherwise and international conventions are stronger than the respective law of signing countries. At least officers knew that, if their men didn't, and they [the officers] are therefore responsible and it is ok that the fact that they just followed orders cannot be their defence.
So not following an order to kill civilians and/or captured combatants is in fact enforcement of the [international] law, regardless of what respective soldier's country might think of it. And it isn't just some idealistic propaganda I am saying.
For instance, Guderian had enough guts and moral firmness to ignore stupid order about non-retreating in face of the Soviet 1941/42 offensive. He was sacked because of it, and he might have been even shot! There is a number of similar happenings in the Wehrmacht 1939-45. Hell, even a number of Japanese officers refused to commit their airmen into kamikaze ops!
Now, where was that same courage when orders like Kommando or Commissar were issued and followed? Where was that courage when killings of POWs and civilians occured, especially in the East and the Balkans? Yes, both sides engaged in crimes, but there is a main difference - it was the German policy to make crime, while with the Allies (even Soviets!) they are incidents. It is sad that most of the crimes of the Allies weren't tried and those that were came out only with light punishments, but it doesn't change the fact that crime was the >German policy.
There was some 600.000 Soviet POWs shot right after being captured, and further 2,5-2,7 milllion died in captivity. Does 3-3,3 mil men dead make an incident or policy?

And what about the German Feldmarschall core. Must of them were bastards, save ones involved in the plot[s] to kill Hitler and take over the country. Others were pure slime. "The German field marshall does not mutiny" my ass! If a field marshall follows order without objections then he should have stayed a battalion commander. Field marshalls must take action as the highest and the most responsible and the most informed part of the officer core even if their actions are regarded as a mutiny. They owe it to their country damit, and it's clear!

#16: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:49 am
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7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

And yes, the people on the streets demonstrates against the war, then they listen to the political rhetoric of those supporting the war (the self-good, lying, political-bastards in our governments) and votes for them another mandate-period. Sadly, every democracy today is a joke; -It's not the people that rules a country today, it is the money! (and I'll guess that it answers your question if I believe in "justice of courts and politics"?) But, I'm no the one that claims I'm the self-righteous one who defend democracy and freedom. I'm just a grumpy old man that wants people to look beyond the 'truth' they feed us with. And if that means I have to defend the 'wrong side' to create a debate and make people think, so be it.

Defending that wrong side is precisely the reason why they are getting away with it.
People can't construct sensible arguments against propaganda because there are people prancing around saying that the only wrong thing in WWII was Holocaust and war crimes, while doing everything to bury the concept of crimes against peace, so that their favourite armed forces wouldn't look bad.
How can they condemn other lesser crimes against peace that have occured later when they can't condemn the greatest crime against peace?

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

I'm just a grumpy old man that wants people to look beyond the 'truth' they feed us with.

Who feeds who with what 'truth'? The concept of crimes against peace and war of aggression being the supreme international crime got practically buried by those who have interest in burying it. In practically every such discussion I see a discussion whenever some German armed forces were evil Jew-killers or good soldiers which were fighting a good fight against Bolsheviks.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

What I mean is that we can't keep bashing the Germans for what happened over 60 years ago, they don't have a genetic liability for WWII.

Strawman argument, no one is doing such a thing here.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

And you can't blame every soldiers of the Riech for what some of them did with the approval and orders of the system; -Just as little as you can blame the entire US Army for what have happened in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, or every muslim for what some fanatics have done.

Except that armed forces taking part in German war of aggression wasn't only SS or "some of them". Whole German war machine took part in it.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

Which is why there is the "forced by threats" part.

7A_Woulf wrote (View Post):

Self-defence and protection of innocents are beautiful words and a just cause to fight, but sadly you don't here those words very often when professional soldiers talks about why they are fighting. "Even the old Greeks" talked about honour, duty and patriotism, nationalism came much later with the creation of the National states as we know them today. I'm not only defending the Prussian officers who fought for Hitler under those banners, but every soldier that are broken into believing that: -Werther it is before or after enlisting.

That tells something about soldiers. Something that isn't very flattering.

Last edited by Therion on Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total

#17: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: vonB,

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:51 am
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As with everything in life, context is important. A fanatic is someone who is intolerant to any alternative (to their view). This does not mean that it is by definition malignant. However, because the psychology of the fanatic is obsessional, it can often manifest maliganantly.

It is not limited to religion; it is more a characteristic of human nature. In most (all?) religions, you can see a distribution of 'believers', who range from the loose to the fundemental. A fundementalist 'Christian' is as dangerous as a fundementalist 'Muslim'. The abherrance is the fundementalism, not the religion.

Unfortunately, we use these terms in so many ways (one of the virtues and frustrations of language), and it is easy to misinterpret or even be misled by what is being said. Do we all mean the same thing by 'Fanatic'? In a general sense yes; there is an accepted meaning based on a behavioural characteristic which is commonly manifest in extreme and anti-social behaviour, but it is clear from the variety of generalisations being promoted here, that there is a divergence in understanding. I am sure there are some who are reading this who will find the language I am using difficult to understand. We are dipping into the realms of semantics, which is a challanging enough activity for born and bred English, never mind all those from foreign lands attempting to use the de-facto (for the time being) 'standard' for international communication.

But there is also ignorance. It is clear from the testimony of German WWII veterans, that atrocities were sanctioned and committed by the Wehrmacht as well as the SS, or any other body, military or otherwise, particularly with regard to Russia. The Party line was that Russians were 'inferior', to the extent that they did not deserve any humane treatment. Any individual whose conscience (or intelligence) found themselves at odds with this, could certainly find themselves suffering the consequences themselves from their own side. There are those who refused to accept the brutalities, and some of those paid with their lives, which merely illustrates the mistake in generalising.

A fanatic is more likely to be inhumane, if the creed demands it, as any counter-argument or alternative perspectives are rejected out of hand. Reason, logic, and such intellectual tools are not available to be used when debating such issues with them.

Even the term 'Soldier' needs some consideration, and is equally open to generalisations. Were all Japanese 'fanatics'? Patently not. We can argue the relative proportions and manifestations, and there is some value in that. There are 2 main types: Conscript and Volunteer. Each can provide fanatics, but that does not make soldiers fanatics. Moreover, it is a mistake to limit the use of fanatics to military or religion. It is a human characteristic, and can therefore exist at any level. Do not assume that it is only the 'other side' that suffers from these kinds of people...

#18: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:03 am
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vonB wrote (View Post):

Any individual whose conscience (or intelligence) found themselves at odds with this, could certainly find themselves suffering the consequences themselves from their own side. There are those who refused to accept the brutalities, and some of those paid with their lives, which merely illustrates the mistake in generalising.

Which is why they should be treated as heroes. Instead there's a trend of treating collaborators as heroes.

#19: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: 7A_Woulf, Location: Sweden

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:14 pm
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vonB wrote (View Post):

As with everything in life, context is important. A fanatic is someone who is intolerant to any alternative (to their view). This does not mean that it is by definition malignant. However, because the psychology of the fanatic is obsessional, it can often manifest maliganantly.

It is not limited to religion; it is more a characteristic of human nature. In most (all?) religions, you can see a distribution of 'believers', who range from the loose to the fundemental. A fundementalist 'Christian' is as dangerous as a fundementalist 'Muslim'. The abherrance is the fundementalism, not the religion.

That might be my last opinion on this subject, fanatics might be found everywhere...

And I may add, that my 'favourite' armed forces (strange expression to use) are; -Those that don't need to exist, British units (among them 51st Highlander, SAS, Paras and Guards Armoured), USMC, US 82nd and 101st AB, French foreign Legion and then some of the German units of WWII.

Gibbs, a character in the tv-series NCIS, once said in: "I don't support the war, I support the soldiers."

#20: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:59 pm
—

Quote:

example:
1)we have number of the Soviet orders (on different levels, from battalion to GHQ) saying that attrocities will be not tolerated on liberated territories, including Germany. And actions were in same manner.
2)we have number of the German orders (on different levels, from battalion to GHQ) saying that attrocities should be commited and will be tolerated on untermensch territories, including Russia. And actions were in same manner.

in general i really like how kawasaky explained it in his post, the whole German nazi policy was an attrocitie.

Quote:

I'm talking about crimes against the Geneva Convention, rap, murder, pillaging, terror-bombings etc.

according to the GC, each country which signed the GC should treat POW according to it, even if the enemy country didn't sign it.
most everything what the Germans were doing with RA POW was against the GC.

Quote:

Maybe you can enlighten me here Dima? I've heard rumours about casualty-numbers on the Eastern Front that indicates the use of gas, but did any side ever use it?

no evidence of gas beeing used on the EF.
problem with WW2 gases was that it was pretty easy to protect against them with simple equipment like gas-mask, etc. They could be only effective against unprepared target like civilians. But that would lead to retaliation and noone wanted it.

Quote:

For instance, Guderian had enough guts and moral firmness to ignore stupid order about non-retreating in face of the Soviet 1941/42 offensive. He was sacked because of it, and he might have been even shot!

that's according to Guderian and other "glorious" german commanders that were lucky enough to live through War and write memoirs. Hitler and the most guys in charge were not available by then so it was save to say "they sucked and i rocked" Smile

.
In reality that order was the main reason why they managed to stop RA without much ground losses.

#21: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: dj,

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:28 am
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One Man's definition of terrorist is another man's definition of freedom fighter.

Afganistan 1980's Islamic Holy Warriors were considered Terrorists to the Soviets. Martyrs and Heros to the Afganistan resistance. Freedom Fighters and "Allies" to the United States. 30 years later most of these same Afgan Fighters are now considered enemies to the United States and our NATO allies. Although now we understand how politics can create blowback as allegiances and winds of politics change. Now obviously we see the tables turn as Russia is considered an ally of America and partner against Radical Islam. Some American political fanatics are still trying to provoke Russia and do not want allegiance with our former rival...due to some strange reason, possibly financially motivated to get new arms contracts from a renewed arms race.

I think in answer to the OP's main point... fanaticism is best described as a soldier or chain of command that acts in premeditated crimes against humanity. Also actions that are in violation of the Geneva Convention.

SS political leaders were complicit with crimes against humanity. Soviet NKVD also would be complicit with crimes against humanity - although this was an internal matter. Individual actions of soldiers as part of military units are considered more acts of crime than acts against humanity if things like rape, theft or random killing of civilians. This gets into a very gray area as the Chain of Command is often ( still to this day ) shielded from accountability for legal purposes - then the solider becomes the scapegoat when in fact his commanders authorized systematic murder etc. To present day - this continues to be a major legal liability for nations in terms of reparations, and whether or not governments can be prosecuted. America is still somewhat divided over the issue of torturing civilian combatants and whether or not they should receive any GC rights yet alone whether or not they can be tortured.

#22: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:59 pm
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dj wrote (View Post):

One Man's definition of terrorist is another man's definition of freedom fighter.

Afganistan 1980's Islamic Holy Warriors were considered Terrorists to the Soviets. Martyrs and Heros to the Afganistan resistance. Freedom Fighters and "Allies" to the United States. 30 years later most of these same Afgan Fighters are now considered enemies to the United States and our NATO allies.

AFAIK these Afghan Fighters become bandit warlords that later were attacked by the Taliban and formed the Northern Alliance which NATO supported during the war in Afghanistan. So, they are still American allies.

dj wrote (View Post):

I think in answer to the OP's main point... fanaticism is best described as a soldier or chain of command that acts in premeditated crimes against humanity.

And crimes against peace.

#23: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:48 pm
—

Quote:

and btw Taliban was the only one who was fighting against heroin in Afgan as it was/is the main resource for Northern Alliance/Afgani goverment. While NATO forces in Afgan just supports the heroin cash-flow Smile

#24: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: dj,

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:41 am
—
ouch salt in the wounds...it is bitter irony that now almost 10 years after the war began, we are right back at square one negotiating potential peace terms with the initial enemy factions. Or at least Karzai is negotiating. Yes there are very strange rumours and stories about drug trade and "missing" American funds that were supposedly for aid purposes. Karzai's brother on the CIA payroll? Billions of $ mysteriously being moved with no audit trail. Troops are on orders to destroy marijuana I saw in a documentary. Re: the Norther Alliance the main leader was assassinated. Also rumours of U.S. / NATO aircraft being downed by AA weapons...possibly some of the U.S. supplied stinger AA missles that never were completely accounted for. Plus Pakistan has its own agenda...going back to the days of the USSR vs Muhajideen - U.S. funded battles. It was never U.S. directly - Pakistan intelligence was the middle man. Pakistan is like a free-swinging mercenary that is trying to oppress both Afganistan and India...all the while using the U.S. for whatever $ it can swindle.
Iran sending suitcases of cash to Karzai? Not sure what that is about.

China 50 years after Korea is now America's #1 trading partner. So it really was NOT all about Communism being the evil world enemy #1? Vietnam likewise is now on the fast track to preferred trading partner. Intel allegedly is moving a major production facility there soon. It really equates to virtual slave labor and maximizing profits for U.S. corporations. It doesn't matter that millions of American jobs have been permanently replaced in China, Vietnam, India and even former Warsaw Pact nations. I guess it really had nothing to do with politics now that the USSR is gone.

U.S. political fanatics may succeed in tricking America into starting a new arms race with Russia and China? The Neo-Facists are unfortunately consolidating their power so the winds of political change are as unpredictable as ever. Drives our NATO allies crazy i'm sure.

#25: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Bungarra, Location: Murchison region, West Australia

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:27 am
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I wrote a song about all this capital greed years ago, but its still relevant today. Corporate greed and religious fanatics. Chistian & Muslim (brainwashed from birth) This music is copyright to me. If enough of you are interested I'll post it on YOUTUBE. The whole moral to the song is the last verse. Like John Lennons "Imagine" My song is about "Harmony"

130 Rock2 Harmony B7 F#7F#7F#& A E7E7E7
Intro X 2
Now people you know it’s true, and
don’t say it’s not happening to you
Prices going up each day, while the farmer slowly fades away
Free trade, they say, will make us all rich some day
But what, I want, to know is.. just where do all the dollars go..
Whole families blown away, forclosed.. in the streets of toda..y
For What….t What have they go…t
Intro X 2
Blinded by the greed, of the big Corporate machine
Say, Buy shares in what got, and we promise you we’ll make you a lot
Get your head out of the sand,
Cause there’s no more jobs left in this land.
They’re all go’in out offsho..re,
just trying to make you, a little bit more.,..
For Wha…t , what have you got..t
Intro X 2
Why should we have to bare, Politicians who don’t care..
Stand up and join the fight, cause don’t you know,
there’s wrong and right
Stand up and fi..ght, it’s your ri..ght
Stand up and fi..ght, it’s your ri..ght.
Chorus
Harmony, meant to be, Harmony just U & me
Harmony, meant to be, Harmony just sing it with me
Harmony, 4 ever will be, Harmony, sing it with me
Harmony, U & me

Climate change, all the rage,
and they say it’s not happening these days
Tidal Waves, Hurricanes, Bushfires, the winds of change
Things are goin horribly wrong, So getup now and sing your song
For Right, Get up and fight, its your right X 4
Chorus
Slow down, make a change.
Remember you’ll be dead some day
Don’t be blinded by the greed, don’t you know, there’s others in need
Be strong, be true, remember there’s only one of yo..u
Stand tall, Be proud, you know you got to sing it out loud
Sing it loud, Be a crowd sing it loud .. X 2
Solo
Make them listen, make them change, no more of the religious insane
Get the nod, from your GOD, cause harmony, it’s meant to be,
Chorus X 2, solo, chorus, outro

#26: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:58 pm
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Post it on YouTube, plz.

dj wrote (View Post):

ouch salt in the wounds...it is bitter irony that now almost 10 years after the war began, we are right back at square one negotiating potential peace terms with the initial enemy factions. Or at least Karzai is negotiating. Yes there are very strange rumours and stories about drug trade and "missing" American funds that were supposedly for aid purposes. Karzai's brother on the CIA payroll? Billions of $ mysteriously being moved with no audit trail. Troops are on orders to destroy marijuana I saw in a documentary. Re: the Norther Alliance the main leader was assassinated. Also rumours of U.S. / NATO aircraft being downed by AA weapons...possibly some of the U.S. supplied stinger AA missles that never were completely accounted for. Plus Pakistan has its own agenda...going back to the days of the USSR vs Muhajideen - U.S. funded battles. It was never U.S. directly - Pakistan intelligence was the middle man. Pakistan is like a free-swinging mercenary that is trying to oppress both Afganistan and India...all the while using the U.S. for whatever $ it can swindle.
Iran sending suitcases of cash to Karzai? Not sure what that is about.

Fuck, what a fucking mess.

dj wrote (View Post):

China 50 years after Korea is now America's #1 trading partner. So it really was NOT all about Communism being the evil world enemy #1?

What? China stopped being communist some time ago. It's exploitative capitalist now.

dj wrote (View Post):

Vietnam likewise is now on the fast track to preferred trading partner. Intel allegedly is moving a major production facility there soon.

If Intel is moving a major production facility there, then it probably stopped being communist too.

dj wrote (View Post):

It really equates to virtual slave labor and maximizing profits for U.S. corporations. It doesn't matter that millions of American jobs have been permanently replaced in China, Vietnam, India and even former Warsaw Pact nations. I guess it really had nothing to do with politics now that the USSR is gone.

After all, communism and socialism didn't happen just because some people decided to be evil. It was a reaction to the exploitative capitalism.

#27: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: karlmortar, Location: Falköping,Sweden

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:41 pm
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Wow, people really got strange views of things... Rolling Eyes

So far, Woulf and Kawasaky has been the most reasonable guys, who seems to know what they are talking about.

The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago. It's time to forgive the poor sods.
Yes, germany was responsible for the deaths of million, but let's not forget that communism is directly/indirectly responsible for the deaths of way over 60 million people. Only religion all together has killed more people, so please throw crap at religion and communism as well.
The Soviet Union was as least as bad as the germans, IF NOT WORSE. Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time, as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals, ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm. The NKVD was like the Gestapo and had their own concentration camps : the Gulags.

And let's not forget Allied war crimes such as: terror bombing, executing POWs, using enemy uniforms in commando raids, (yes it is a war crime to use an enemy's uniform and pose as one of them) and two nuclear bombs and not to mentioning the killing of thousends of civilians in further conflicts like Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.

Im not trying to protect or whitewash Nazi-Germany, im only trying to point out that nazi-germany wasn't the only "blacksheep" during ww2.

Quote:

What? China stopped being communist some time ago. It's exploitative capitalist now.

The last time I checked, China is still a communist totalitarian state (In it's own ways).

#28: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:24 pm
—

Quote:

The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago.

Quote:

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time

where did you get these numbers from?

Quote:

as well as the deportion and excecution of Jews, intellectuals,ethnic groups like different cossack tribes, estonians, finns, georgians and those who activly practiced different religion like buddishm.

wtf? are you serious?

Quote:

The NKVD was like the Gestapo and had their own concentration camps : the Gulags

Every state's Domestic Affairs Ministry has it's own prisons, camps, etc.

#29: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: karlmortar, Location: Falköping,Sweden

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:02 am
—

Quote:

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of about 30 million soviet nationals (deliberate starvation and excecution of anti-soviet elements) during his time

where did you get these numbers from?

From different online sources,books and documentrys. But i must confess that the "excact" numbers are unclear, which ranges from 9-30 million.

Quote:

Yes Im serious. The NKVD hunted down Jews as well as Intellectuals for roughly the same reasons the Nazis did. Perhaps the Soviet Union didn't kill so many of these unfortunate, but they did deport a huge amount of people to Siberia and the Gulags there. The cossacks and the baltic-states were the ones who were hit hardest by the NKVD nd for example Lithuania got about 20% of its populance deported to Siberia as cheap labour because they were "kolaks" (independat "rich" farmers).
Religion in all was "forbidden" in the USSR, all churches and chapells were closed, but during the dark days of the Nazi invasion Stalin decided to open them to lift the spirit and morale of the people.

Btw, i think the Katyn massacre is a good example. Around 200 Polish officers executed because they could be trouble in the future.

Quote:

Every state's Domestic Affairs Ministry has it's own prisons, camps, etc.

True.

#30: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:20 am
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Quote:

From different online sources,books and documentrys. But i must confess that the "excact" numbers are unclear, which ranges from 9-30 million.

numbers unclear for whom?
why not from 100-100.000.000?

Quote:

Yes Im serious.

you are seriously out of the topic.

Quote:

The NKVD hunted down Jews as well as Intellectuals for roughly the same reasons the Nazis did.

any proofs for that?
how long have they been doing that? how come they were so ineffective that f.e. almost half of the population of Kiev consited of jews and the Soviet goverment consisted of many jews and itellectuals?

Quote:

Perhaps the Soviet Union didn't kill so many of these unfortunate, but they did deport a huge amount of people to Siberia and the Gulags there.

who has reported to whom?

Quote:

The cossacks and the baltic-states were the ones who were hit hardest by the NKVD nd for example Lithuania got about 20% of its populance deported to Siberia as cheap labour because they were "kolaks" (independat "rich" farmers).

bah, sometimes it's better to chew than to talk and make fool out of yourself. Again you are totally out of this question.

Quote:

Religion in all was "forbidden" in the USSR, all churches and chapells were closed,but during the dark days of the Nazi invasion Stalin decided to open them to lift the spirit and morale of the people.

total mess...

Quote:

Btw, i think the Katyn massacre is a good example. Around 200 Polish officers executed because they could be trouble in the future.

again, false number by you..

Anyway, good example of anti-ussr fanatic Smile

#31: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:38 pm
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War is always total war.

No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed. In fact, jews killed millions of Ukrainians (Holodomor) and Russians during communist regime.
Every side was taking part of atrocities, but still my opinion is that jews were the biggest war criminals in WWII.

#32: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:01 pm
—

Quote:

War is always total war.

not true, too many examples when wars were local Smile

Quote:

No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed. In fact, jews killed millions of Ukrainians (Holodomor) and Russians during communist regime. Every side was taking part of atrocities, but still my opinion is that jews were the biggest war criminals in WWII.

good example of racist fanatic Very Happy

#33: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:20 pm
—

Link

#34: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: karlmortar, Location: Falköping,Sweden

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:09 pm
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Yes, im off topic, so I'll shut up now. Just a few more things: Wink

Some explination of the unclear numbers of dead kulaks (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks) "The overwhelming majority of kulaks executed and imprisoned were male, but precise numbers are somewhat difficult to obtain. Many historians consider the great famine a result of the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class," which complicates the estimation of death tolls. A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 60 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn to as few as 700,000 by Soviet news sources"

Check this about the Soviet view of religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia

Quote:

again, false number by you..

False is such a "angry" word, I just forgot to hit two more "0"s.

Quote:

Anyway, good example of anti-ussr fanatic

That seems a bit unacalled for, but yeah...perhaps you are a too proud russian to listen?

Never mind my bollocs...I'll keep quite now. I didn't mean to upset anyone or start a flaming war or anything. Just tried to point out that NAzi germany wern't the only bad guys during the 20th century. Again: Sorry Embarassed

#35: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:47 pm
—

Quote:

guess what, my grand-grand-dad was so-called Kulak in Kuban (Cossak he was), was de-Kulak-fied and sent to the labour camp. Guess what after? He was killed by mortar shell in 1944 as a political officer (major) of RA in East Prussia...funny eh? (I can prove each word).
Now explain how could he become officer in RA?
Please, give me numbers of executed and inmprisoned each year. (yes, i have them).

Quote:

Many historians consider the great famine a result of the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class," which complicates the estimation of death tolls.

only the "historians" like Beevor and Suvorov could tell that. And yes, here again we have all the numbers as they are not cencored anymore for more than 10 years Smile

Quote:

A wide range of death tolls has been suggested, from as many as 60 million suggested by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn to as few as 700,000 by Soviet news sources"

so thats your main source? funny, why don't u take G.Orwell "1984" as a source?

Quote:

Check this about the Soviet view of religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia

so that's your sources?
please answer why do they contradict each other?

Probably that;s why Sergiy, Patriarch of Mirgorod, told on 22.06.1941 (my translation):
Fascist bandits attacked our Motherland. Refusing any agreements and promises, they have suddenly stroke us, and now blood of civilians spills on peacefull land. The times of Batyi, the german knights, Charles the Sweden, Napoleon, return. Pity descendants of enemies of orthodox chrisitians want to kneel our people against heretics once more, with pure hostility force our people to sacrifice the Land's integrity, blood promises to our Motherland.

yes, i have more Smile

Quote:

False is such a "angry" word, I just forgot to hit two more "0"s.

so from 200 to 20.000?

Quote:

That seems a bit unacalled for, but yeah...perhaps you are a too proud russian to listen?

u know, i can tell alot of bad things about USSR, but you, knowing nothing, start telling alot of crap with a rage of fanatic..

Quote:

Just tried to point out that NAzi germany wern't the only bad guys during the 20th century

u know, the Russian Ministry of External Intellegence has today declissified the order of Hitler to kill all the male persons on occupied Ukraine when they were retreating in 1944..

#36: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Andreus,

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:33 pm
—
Eh guys, keep cool. Reading has been *mostly* great so far, dont make it trolling/flaming

#37: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: dj,

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:24 am
—
Somebody with a Zionist conspiracy - Josef Goebbels-style avatar posts a video of American Neo-Nazi and KKK leader? What a shocker.

Re: Karlmortar...I think you have revisionist attitude. Nobody I think claims all Germans soldiers were guilty of war crimes or that Germany should still be made villian for role in crimes. Most German soldiers were just doing their civic duty, sometimes against their wishes. SS soldiers did not necessarily participate in war crimes but most WOULD kill civilians if ordered, fight to the death, and swear 100% allegiance to the Nazi party. I've seen video interviews with Russian vets that said if they were in fight with SS...they were on guard and made to fear them. USSR of course participated in brutal crimes against humanity of historic proportions but the vast majority was against other USSR citizens for political fanatic purposes. Also the USSR did not instigate conflict but actually was complicit with forming treaty of cooperation with Nazi's until 1941.June when Stalin could not believe he was attacked by his supposed ally.

Yes I am the first to admit unfortunately my nation has blood on its hands with Iraq as it was an illegal invasion in my opinion. But America does NOT systematically and in pre-meditated manner conduct genocide or fanatical crimes against humanity. So spare me the Yankee - hater , America is just as bad as Nazi rhetoric. America spent tons of our own $ to help rebuild both Germany AND Japan, with our brightest and most talented economic/technical advisors. So much so Japan and Germany got state of the art new infrastructure better than what a lot of American cities had. Did America oppress or brutalize the Axis? No. Yes we sometimes feel guilt for being the only nation that nuked civilians. But it actually saved both Japanese and American lives from bitter fight to the death invasion - probably 1 million lives saved due to surrender.

Back to modern fanatics...America economic , cultural , educational decline could bring rise of Neo-Nazi that Tippo likes. It is true that since the majority of liberal-minded Americans that were open enough to elect a young 1/2 black 1/2 white man with Muslim name...has brought about a wave of backlash from the growing base of racist Neo-Nazi's and ripping an old scab off America's darker past. These right-wing fanatics are growing quickly in numbers and resources...arming up to the point ammo is constantly sold-out. Hate to say the achilles heel of modern Democracy is how well educated the base of the population is and how it's all about manipulation the govt by powerful $ interests. I am just glad not to be a gay Muslim Mexican in America - next thing you know they will be rounding all of them up in fascist police state camps. Seriously some political fanatics want to make it crime to be gay...and deport or round-up Muslims and Mexicans. Heck for that matter those same political fanatics HATE Europe and believe you are all crazy Socialists. What a joke.

#38: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: kawasaky, Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:09 am
—

dj wrote (View Post):

Yes I am the first to admit unfortunately my nation has blood on its hands with Iraq as it was an illegal invasion in my opinion. But America does NOT systematically and in pre-meditated manner conduct... ...crimes against humanity.

Now, we could open a new thread on that issue.

#39: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:58 am
—
Hi there

dj wrote (View Post):

USSR of course participated in brutal crimes against humanity of historic proportions but the vast majority was against other USSR citizens for political fanatic purposes. Also the USSR did not instigate conflict but actually was complicit with forming treaty of cooperation with Nazi's until 1941.June when Stalin could not believe he was attacked by his supposed ally.

Soviet did not instigate conflict? Well, not vs Germany ofcose..
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and most importent its secret protocol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania and Latvia and not to forget Finland would not agree with the statement: "Soviet did not instigate conflict"!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Bessarabia_and_Northern_Bukovina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

/S

#40: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:10 pm
—
Hi Stalk Smile

Quote:

Soviet did not instigate conflict? Well, not vs Germany ofcose..
Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and most importent its secret protocol

that's the view from modern atittude. Now try to see it from late 30s-40s attitude, when the peacefull and understandable world was destroyed by Munchen agreement of 1938 Smile

#41: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:25 pm
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karlmortar wrote (View Post):

The rest of you seems to be racists that hates EVERY german for something that their country did over 65 years ago.

Nice strawman Laughing

. Seriously, don't try to use these kinds of tricks on a history fans forum.

karlmortar wrote (View Post):

not to mentioning the killing of thousends of civilians in further conflicts like Korea, Vietnam

Both in Korea and Vietnam, Americans were defending these countries from the communist war of aggression. Seriously, what the fuck? First you do everything to demonize the Commies and suddenly Americans become evil civilian killers for trying to stop them from taking over another countries and committing more attracities?
If anything, Americans should be accused for their cowardly abandonment of South Vietnamese despite giving them security guarantees - which caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

karlmortar wrote (View Post):

Quote:

What? China stopped being communist some time ago. It's exploitative capitalist now.

The last time I checked, China is still a communist totalitarian state (In it's own ways).

Yeah, China is totally communist Laughing

.
Especially with private sector accounting for 70% of their GDP Laughing

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

War is always total war.

No, it isn't. You can wage a limited war, to capture one city or a specific region, for example.

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

No need to cry for handful of jews which were killed.

Yeah, because the crimes of Nazi Germany and it's supporters were totally, like limited to killing a "handful of jews". How about destroying peace in Europe, bandit invasions on several European nations, destruction of unimaginable amounts of property, mass robberies, slavery and murdering millions of white Europeans?

#42: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: dj,

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:17 am
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Looking back...how did I forget that favorite Soviet propaganda claim of America (selective) genocide of the Native Americans. This is true and America has own internal shame over this history from the beginning of America all the way to end of 1800's. However America has made permanent commitment to Native Americans with social programs, reservations, and $

Well America DID commit to helping the South Vietnam military. The problem is that the U.S. Budget got drastically cut for funding the South Vietnam military. Everything soon fell apart afterwards. That time the USA was beginning to have serious financial and economic problems...so I do not think America had much choice to cut the budget.

There is no such thing as 100% Communist, 100% Socialist, or 100% Capitalist society. This is popular urban legend in America right now. Radicals label certain political agenda as "socialist" or "marxist" as scare tactics. Yes China implemented private sector economic reforms beginning in the late 80's but they are still considered Communist as is Vietnam. So as in the example of negotiating peace terms with the Taliban in Afganistan this year...America has come full circle with our former Communist enemies. So much so that China is the USA #1 trading partner and assembles the vast majority of our goods. Again same story with Vietnam with rapid expansion of trade with USA. It is a good question on evolution of Communism and Capitalism. The main thing appears to be "one party state" with total government control over media, birth control, etc.

Here is a map and explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_communist_states

F the Neo-Nazi's. But even in America they are entitled to our Constitutional 1st Amendment rights. It disgust me how they along with many of their American right-wing extremists allies are always trying to downplay the extent of the Holocaust...or even how much other white people suffered.

#43: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:01 am
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dj wrote (View Post):

It is a good question on evolution of Communism and Capitalism. The main thing appears to be "one party state" with total government control over media, birth control, etc.

Communism didn't evolve in countries that ended up moving to socialism or capitalism. It simply died because it didn't work. Their talk about how they are "communist" is just a propaganda of their government which serves as a justification of their human right abuses. After all they are like they are to protect their precious communist revolution. Without communism there isn't any reason for their existence.

#44: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:42 pm
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I think dj has been drinking too much Kool Aid.
Keep up the good work brotha.

Typical Obongo voter libtard.

#45: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: dj,

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:12 am
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Very good - did you copy / paste that from one of your favorite David Duke white surpremist Tea Klux Klan or Neo-Nazi websites?

#46: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Tippi-Simo, Location: Helsinki

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:24 am
—
Did you even read what you wrote? No you didn´t.

You made allied war crimes acceptable because after the war Yankees rebuilt Europe and Japan.
By thinking that way SS human tests in camps and tests by Unit 731 were justified because it boosted medicine.

Don´t write that long posts. You already forgot what you wrote 3 sentences before.

Change, you keep the change.

#47: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Wastemoreland,

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:57 am
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A guy from my country( Faroe Islands) who was captured by the germans, somehow ended in a KZ camp.
When asked in an interview if the germans were kind or not, he said "well.........they were fond of their dogs"
I guess thats one way of saying it Very Happy

I haven´t read all the posts here, but I firmly believe that there is no such thing as an all out "evil" army no matter where it originates, and no matter whom it is set loose upon. War is cruel! no other way to describe it. One should also note here, that ALOT of german soldiers comitted suicide. Wouldn´t mind knowing those numbers if they exist. They couldn´t live with it see. So instead of refusing orders and such they just took the easy way out. In the end I think that 7A_Woulf wins this debate. Very sound arguments. Here is an example of a good compassionate german high ranking soldier, go ahead read up on him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKAnD9Dn6VE&feature=fvsr Crying or Very sad

#48: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Wastemoreland,

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:19 pm
—

dj wrote (View Post):

Very good - did you copy / paste that from one of your favorite David Duke white surpremist Tea Klux Klan or Neo-Nazi websites?

Why do people insist on calling Dr Duke a white supremacist? When in fact all he does is to stand up for white people. I´ve NEVER heard the man give so much as a hint to harm or supress people, no matter what their race, religion etc. But I supose us white folks don´t deserve to have someone standing up for us. We are just to damn evil. So that right should be exclusive to blacks, asians, and so forth. In fact I need to go stand in the corner now to cry and sob, and ask for forgiveness for all the indians and jews "we" murdered. Funny how the word "we" is often used. We killed the indians. We killed the jews. I didn´t kill anybody!
I´m sick of this god damn guilt always being portrayed on white people! Mad

#49: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: dj,

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:28 am
—
What is this website the new Nazi-lover hang out? You can invent your own ideas but you can't invent your own facts. So when Bush was President Muslims were okay and now all of sudden when Obama is President now all the white pride Confederates get all excited and ant to impeach him. Relax Obuga is not a Muslim, he is only 1/2 black and 1/2 white, not going to steal your guns, or force you to become gay or give all your $ to those dark-skinned lazy people on welfare to pump out babies and steal your tax $.

David Duke is not white power fanatic?

"Duke appeared at a demonstration in Nazi uniform. Picketing and holding parties on the anniversary of Adolf Hitler's birth, he became notorious on the LSU campus for wearing a Nazi uniform. Duke founded the Louisiana-based Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (KKKK), a Louisiana Ku Klux Klan organization, shortly after graduating from LSU. He became Grand Wizard of the KKKK"

This thread is done. All you Nazi-lover Jew basher, Obunga haters should go to one of your own David Duke white power fanatic websites.

#50: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Wastemoreland,

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:34 am
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Yeah and he was like 16 years old when he did that stunt. And his section of the clan never did any violant acts, neither encouraged others to do so. As for Obama I have nothing to say about him, he´s boring I guess Confused

#51: Re: Fanatics and the Soldier Author: Therion,

Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:29 am
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Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):

Did you even read what you wrote? No you didn´t.

You made allied war crimes acceptable because after the war Yankees rebuilt Europe and Japan.
By thinking that way SS human tests in camps and tests by Unit 731 were justified because it boosted medicine.

So, how were these SS human tests in camps and tests by Unit 731 helping to end the German and Japanese reign of terror?

Close Combat Series -> The Mess

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