infantry combat since CC3, what happened?
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Close Combat Series -> The Mess
#1: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Filion,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:27 am
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Well it may sound stupid, but here it is (keep in mind that's just my opinion)

I feel like infantry combat in CC games since CC3 (except COI of course) is a bit...hmm shall we say...boring (?)
I find small arms to be way too much inacurate (mainly rifles) causing infantry clashes to be pointless ammo wasting (just like trench warfare, but without the trenches)
On many instances I've seen squads firing at each other for something like two minutes withouth a casualty, at grenade throwing range (all grenades were of course depleted), and  on flat terrain (such as a grass field or a road)
I mean...they're soldiers right? They should know how to shoot

Could someone enlighten me on this issue?

I apologize for my bad english, I'm french Smile
#2: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:40 am
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nope..

Just lost almost half my infantry inside 5mins to small arms fire... playing tLD
#3: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:47 am
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Are you sure you're playing the same game? Smile
#4: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Filion,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:49 am
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well I've played WaR Razz
#5: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:51 am
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Is it just WAR then you are describing?

Was wondering if you felt the same way about TLD or LSA?
#6: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:54 am
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Filion wrote (View Post):
well I've played WaR Razz


Well if you're playing unpatched WAR...on some maps there are ghostly invisible buildings on those grass fields and roads...that might explain what you're experiencing  Wink
#7: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: davidssfx,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:26 am
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Check out the Ground Tactics 1.71 mod for TLD.
Dima did some really nice work on the data ... which, from what you've described in your post, would probably be to your liking.
#8: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: schrecken, Location: Sydney, Australia PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:27 pm
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Quote:
Well if you're playing unpatched WAR...on some maps there are ghostly invisible buildings on those grass fields and roads...that might explain what you're experiencing



really... where abouts?
#9: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: vonB,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:53 pm
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Fix bayonets, and get up close and personal  Wink

On the whole, I am reasonably content with the infantry .v. infantry simulation.  In general, I think the killing capabilities in CC are a bit too strong, especially for tanks which are *way* too strong IMO.

Have started on LSA.  I am finding that it seems more difficult to mow down infantry with infantry, but I think it is the better for it.  Although it is definately a game that needs to be played as Allies, I am starting to play as Germans to see what it's like (as it's my preference).  I gave the Allies Always Obey Orders and I must say, they go for their objectives quite ruthlessly!  15 minute timer.  Not uncommon for a squad or 2 to make a bee line for a VL/Bridge, and it's not always easy to stop them getting there!  A lot more wounded and incapcitated rather than killed.  Again, I find this better.  We will see what it's like when there's more Armour around.

Only on the second round, but am finding I am able to sustain a defense, though not always a walk in the park.  Down to a single (command) soldier on one of the Maps, and I expect to get kicked off this round.  I am tyring to avoid blowing the bridges if at all possible, i.e. only if the position is untenable.  In reality, the Germans would only blow a bridge if they thought they were going to lose control of it.

But if you get your deployment well positioned, you can still inflict serious casualties, but if you do not, then the attackers can make good headway.  The larger Maps (than CC2) make it harder to deal with tactically.  Spreading Units out thinly is a bad idea on the whole, so have to focus on what's important, and put up with being unable to command the whole Map with so few Units.

So, I think having reduced lethality makes a more compelling engagement.  You have to use better tactics to sustain a position and keep your force intact, which is not easy against an enemy with superior numbers and a determination to gain their objectives.  The only easy engagement so far has been one of the SS Groups, which took the Allied force to the cleaners!, but on the whole, few of the Maps have been an easy defend.  

I hope that the armour isn't too powerful when it comes to killing infantry (as is the case in most CC's).  We shall see.
#10: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:53 pm
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schrecken wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Well if you're playing unpatched WAR...on some maps there are ghostly invisible buildings on those grass fields and roads...that might explain what you're experiencing



really... where abouts?


Wow! You really don't know about them?
Stalky posted some of them...a few weeks after WAR came out Smile
#11: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:33 pm
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vonB wrote (View Post):
Fix bayonets, and get up close and personal  Wink

On the whole, I am reasonably content with the infantry .v. infantry simulation.  In general, I think the killing capabilities in CC are a bit too strong, especially for tanks which are *way* too strong IMO.

I think it's because most of the fire against infantry in CC is close range direct fire where the firer sees the target.

On the other hand, for example in Firefight almost all fire is against general area where the target is and killing infantry with anything but artillery and close assault is very difficult.

Anyway, IIRC fire in CC is too lethal in general. From what I've read, in reality 40% of head wounds, 45% of torso wounds and 80%  of limb wounds are just light wounds (CC Injured). On average, 60% of wounds are Injuries. In CC most seems to be death or incapacitation.
#12: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:13 pm
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I like infantry to be difficult to kill, it forces you to maneuver and assault. What I find boring and unrealistic is having a machine gun kill all of your squad inside a building while in prone position.
#13: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:16 pm
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Interesting feedback Therion.

I was asking about the game as sometimes in LSA, more often playing as the Germans, I found I was thinking the same thing as Filion;

"way too inacurate (mainly rifles) causing infantry clashes to be pointless ammo wasting"

Having said that though there are other times when the game seems really lethal.

One possible reason is that in LSA the quality and morale of the firing team has more impact on accuracy....
#14: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: MarchingBand,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:57 pm
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try storming a ss platoon leader squad with 3 airborne squads in LSA, and you'll see 3 dead airborne squads Sad
#15: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: US_Brake, Location: USA PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:29 pm
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Keep your teams under the influence of NCO's
#16: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Cathartes,  PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:21 pm
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"So, I think having reduced lethality makes a more compelling engagement.  You have to use better tactics to sustain a position and keep your force intact, which is not easy against an enemy with superior numbers and a determination to gain their objectives."

Agree with the above.
#17: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:37 pm
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Maybe the game is fine if both sides are thinking the other has the advantage....
#18: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:32 am
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Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
I like infantry to be difficult to kill, it forces you to maneuver and assault. What I find boring and unrealistic is having a machine gun kill all of your squad inside a building while in prone position.

I suspect that it's a part of balancing of 1:1 fights in CC series. Game with lesser casualties of troops in cover would probably require the attacker to have a numerical superiority to be able to win, which would lead to battles like 5 defending teams vs 10-15 attacking teams.
#19: Re: infantry combat since CC3, what happened? Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:51 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):

I suspect that it's a part of balancing of 1:1 fights in CC series. Game with lesser casualties of troops in cover would probably require the attacker to have a numerical superiority to be able to win, which would lead to battles like 5 defending teams vs 10-15 attacking teams.


I think it worked just fine in CC2, tanks became a lot more efficient with CC3 and infantry was hopeless, Real Red brought some balance back but I think it was never the same.

On the matter of number of playable teams, we are long due for an upgrade, at least to 20 but 30 would be great now that the newest engine can manage merging of BG's. Maps have been getting bigger and team variety has expanded but we are stuck playing with 15 units that can barely cover a small part of modern maps.
Close Combat Series -> The Mess


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