Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust
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#1: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: kawasaky, Location: Zagreb, Hrvatska PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 5:55 pm
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If you haven't already, it's a must see:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1018677197583161392
#2: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: Blackstump, Location: Hunter Valley Australia PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 7:21 am
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A nice perspective, and very different now then it seemed back then, yes im glad that Vietnam is what it is today.
But back in the day life was different to what we know now.
Im not going to try an vindicate what happened back then politicaly.
But im still happy with America taking on the position of  World pollice.. yer a lot of stuff ups... but things could have been a lot worse if they had stayed with the previous isolationist policies.
#3: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: dj,  PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:18 pm
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Oh please Ho Chi Minh invaded South Vietnam, not the other way around.  I love how all these revisionists spin the facts.  Who do you think supplied the North Vietnamese?  Who do you think supplied the Communist side with tanks, AA missles, Migs, and weapons?  It was called the Cold War and this was just one of many global conflicts as part of that era.  Did war crimes occur?  Yes but don't act like America is the bad guy.  There was no such thing as good guys or bad guys in the Cold War. Both sides committed war crimes.

Re: Isolationism...it is the roots of America to be isolationists and try to stay-out of the international affairs...especially of European powers.  It was only after WWI did America break its long tradition of isolationism. There is a resurgence of isolationism in America.  I think America would be better off letting the U.N. or regional powers handle their own affairs.  The world complains when America does not take action.  Then they complain when we do.  America would be better off to stop trying to please everyone and trying to be the world Policemen.
#4: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 9:19 pm
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Actually, USSR was a bad guy in cold war and they have shown their true face by occupying Poland and other central European countries.
Stuff like that would probably cause any red country to be viewed with a high dose of suspicion.

On a side note, communists in Vietnam managed to decrease the level of gender discrimination and forced prostitution, both of which (including child prostitution) have returned with reintroduction of free market.
#5: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: papa_whisky,  PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:54 pm
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In the video yes it was biased, but on the whole I thought it gave an excellent historical review and explanation as to why some of the horrors that occurred happened. The part that was most played down was, in my opinion, was the Vietcong and NVA part in creating the enabling conditions for those horrors to occur, and of course their own horrific actions. Then again the film was made from a US view point measuring against US morals and principles.
#6: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: dj,  PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:51 pm
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Therion wrote (View Post):
Actually, USSR was a bad guy in cold war and they have shown their true face by occupying Poland and other central European countries.
Stuff like that would probably cause any red country to be viewed with a high dose of suspicion.

On a side note, communists in Vietnam managed to decrease the level of gender discrimination and forced prostitution, both of which (including child prostitution) have returned with reintroduction of free market.


Poland did get screwed-over pretty bad by the USSR...when Josef Stalin entered pact with Nazi's to conquer.  But this happened MANY times in your history.
Then Stalin's paranoia prompted him to execute Polish officers that were considered imperialist bourgeoisie.  The worst is during the Warsaw uprising.  
Stalin shrewdly held back Red Army offensive...while he waited for the Warsaw residents to wear down as may Germans as possible and callously watched Warsaw people get wiped-out.

USSR had always been accused of being the "bad guy" but in reality their occupation was primarily a DEFENSIVE manuevuer to prevent yet another invasion by the Germans and their western allies.  Russia had already been wiped-out in WWI.  Very close to getting wiped-out in WWII - with Germans only 20 miles from Moscow.  And during the Medieval era - many times did Germanic armies invade their lands.

Recently de-classified American intelligence proved the USSR in fact did have a DEFENSIVE strategy.  We spied into their nuclear sub fleet command communications during the final years of Cold War and discovered the USSR strategy was totally based on defense.  The USSR was just afraid of the USA / NATO as we were of them.   The evidence is indisputable.
#7: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:19 pm
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dj wrote (View Post):
Therion wrote (View Post):
Actually, USSR was a bad guy in cold war and they have shown their true face by occupying Poland and other central European countries.
Stuff like that would probably cause any red country to be viewed with a high dose of suspicion.

On a side note, communists in Vietnam managed to decrease the level of gender discrimination and forced prostitution, both of which (including child prostitution) have returned with reintroduction of free market.


Poland did get screwed-over pretty bad by the USSR...when Josef Stalin entered pact with Nazi's to conquer.  But this happened MANY times in your history.
Then Stalin's paranoia prompted him to execute Polish officers that were considered imperialist bourgeoisie.  The worst is during the Warsaw uprising.  
Stalin shrewdly held back Red Army offensive...while he waited for the Warsaw residents to wear down as may Germans as possible and callously watched Warsaw people get wiped-out.

USSR had always been accused of being the "bad guy" but in reality their occupation was primarily a DEFENSIVE manuevuer to prevent yet another invasion by the Germans and their western allies.  Russia had already been wiped-out in WWI.  Very close to getting wiped-out in WWII - with Germans only 20 miles from Moscow.  And during the Medieval era - many times did Germanic armies invade their lands.

Recently de-classified American intelligence proved the USSR in fact did have a DEFENSIVE strategy.  We spied into their nuclear sub fleet command communications during the final years of Cold War and discovered the USSR strategy was totally based on defense.  The USSR was just afraid of the USA / NATO as we were of them.   The evidence is indisputable.

It doesn't matter. They were bad guys because hated freedom and hated human rights. They hated democracy and hated freedom of speech. It was even forbidden to talk about certain parts of the history like the Soviets attacking Poland together with Germans.
Whenever they were defensive or offensive, it doesn't matter. They were on the side of evil and by defending themselves by defending their continuing existence they were just prolonging the existence of its evil.
#8: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: LoneRebel,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:16 am
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"Evil" is such a strong word, now isn't it?
#9: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: Priapus,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:37 am
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McCarthy wasn't so keen on political freedom either.
#10: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: LoneRebel,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:43 am
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And let's not even go into the whole US-supporting-dictators-abroad thing.
#11: Re: Clay Claiborne - Vietnam: American Holocaust Author: Therion,  PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:52 pm
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LoneRebel wrote (View Post):
"Evil" is such a strong word, now isn't it?

Not really. It's not like evil is reserved for over-the-top madmen like Hitler. It's a pretty common phenomena. Pretty banal too.
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