MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
However I think that non-religious, atheists etc. should do their best to oppose the religious in their own nation. So I hope that the non-believers/atheists of Australia will be able to do something about religious fanatics in their nation. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I'm not interested in your subjective opinions, |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
fairy tales ......... do not interest me.? |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
Nothing you wrote overruled anything I wrote earlier |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
How about quoting reputable historians, that at least would be a beginning, eh? |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
Yes it seems like your specific branch of religion isn't perfect at all, |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
Hey, if you had the sense to ask me, before shooting your keyboard off, i would have told you that, no Church denomination, nor any individual Christians, are perfect. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
Btw you're a Christian, you're supposed to forgive and turn the other cheek, remember? |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
or are you like the WBC in that you preach hatred? |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I'm beginning to see Australia as a true backwoods, a place where there is no civilization, |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
only religious zealots forcing their brand of religion on others |
Blackstump wrote (View Post): | ||||
I would think your knife of Christianity is closer to the sword of Damocles than the spear of Longinus,,, which in the long run has caused more damage ? |
HogansHeros wrote (View Post): |
I am really tired of seeing arguments over the religious views of Hitler and the Nazis. Seldom are they an attempt to actually learn anything, but rather an attempt to smear opponents with the implication that they, like the Nazis, want to murder millions. Here’s a thought, maybe Hitler was primarily a dictator who’s personal religions views are largely irrelevant and not known definitively; maybe Nazis were linked by a political organization regardless of their personal religions views. I know it sounds crazy, but stick with me here.
Let’s see what we have to support this: The Nazis outlawed and closed atheist and free-thinker groups, with Hitler claiming to have stamped out the atheist movement. Christian individuals and organizations--particularly those with a doctrine and history of pacifism--who opposed Nazi goals were repressed and oppressed while alliances were forged with Christian individuals, institutions and churches who were supportive of Nazi goals. Maybe the Nazis were fearful of any organization lest it become the nucleus of an opposition movement but at the same time were accepting of support in their goals regardless of the source of such support. What of the private religious views of Hitler? Frankly, they seem muddled but altogether subordinate to his views for Germany and himself. He speaks favorably of some parts of Christianity and unfavorably of others. But look at how he views which parts. He likes his view of Jesus as a fighter against those (Jews) who oppose him, but wishes Christianity supported militarism better, more like Islam does with its Jihad/martyrdom idea. He desired a halt to infighting between Catholics and Protestants in Germany because the Germans need to be united to fight their external enemies. He dislikes the idea of a foreign pope holding power over his people, but made a point of forming an alliance with the papal apparatus. He constantly spoke of god and providence, but held heterodox views. What of other Nazi leaders? Himmler, for example, prohibited SS men from being church leaders, but also from being atheists. If I had to speculate I’d figure he wanted them to concentrate on SS stuff, not waste time with church duties, but was simultaneously suspicious that any atheist could be a godless-communist--the great boogieman to Nazis. Himmler personally moved away from the Catholicism of his youth and into German mythology and the occult—not Christian but not atheistic either. Goring appears to have remained Lutheran while Bormann seams to be an atheist. There was a group that was quite anti-Christian and wanted to break the churches and a group that opposed them. Hitler at least did not support their plan and maybe actually opposed it. What about the average German? In 1939, 6 years into Nazi rule, the population was 3.5% neo-pagan and only 1.5% non-religious. If the Nazis had a goal of spreading atheism (something I’ve heard claimed but never supported) than they really sucked at it. With 94% of Germans being Christian, obviously most opposition to and support of the Nazis came from Christians. The Nazis could hardly have accomplished what they did if a majority of people were actively opposed to them and we can probably conclude that more people (and therefore more Christians) supported the Nazis than opposed them. Then there was a group, probably the majority, who were neither actively supporting nor actively opposing the Nazis, at least pre-war. Should we speculate on why the Nazis enjoyed the support and acquiescence of the majority of German Christians? Some of the Nazi ideas, notably opposition to the godless-communists, probably appealed to people as Christians. However, most of their agenda was appealing to people as Germans, either in addition to or without appeal to their Christian side. Revenge for the injuries of the Versailles treaty, regaining lost territory and population, a strong Germany, economic development, ect. all have a nationalistic, not religions, appeal. Look at the reasons for persecuting the Jews and you’ll find a mixture of religious and non-religious motives. Europe has a long history of anti-Semitism. Partly this is rooted in the idea of Jews as Christ-killers and the blood libel myth, but it is also based on the economic success of some Jews, particularly in the banking sector (ironically an area heavily dominated by Jews because they were often banned from trade or work guilds and even owning land, while the Catholic church disallowed Christians to charge each other usury). Add to that the view, in Germany at the time, that Jews as a major component of the group who stabbed Germany in the back at the end of the First World War and that they were seen as part of the international Communist movement and you have a hatred of Jews based on religious and social-economic-political ground. |
HogansHeros wrote (View Post): |
I am really tired of seeing arguments over the religious views of Hitler and the Nazis. Seldom are they an attempt to actually learn anything, but rather an attempt to smear opponents with the implication that they, like the Nazis, want to murder millions. Here’s a thought, maybe Hitler was primarily a dictator who’s personal religions views are largely irrelevant and not known definitively; maybe Nazis were linked by a political organization regardless of their personal religions views. I know it sounds crazy, but stick with me here.
Let’s see what we have to support this: The Nazis outlawed and closed atheist and free-thinker groups, with Hitler claiming to have stamped out the atheist movement. Christian individuals and organizations--particularly those with a doctrine and history of pacifism--who opposed Nazi goals were repressed and oppressed while alliances were forged with Christian individuals, institutions and churches who were supportive of Nazi goals. Maybe the Nazis were fearful of any organization lest it become the nucleus of an opposition movement but at the same time were accepting of support in their goals regardless of the source of such support. What of the private religious views of Hitler? Frankly, they seem muddled but altogether subordinate to his views for Germany and himself. He speaks favorably of some parts of Christianity and unfavorably of others. But look at how he views which parts. He likes his view of Jesus as a fighter against those (Jews) who oppose him, but wishes Christianity supported militarism better, more like Islam does with its Jihad/martyrdom idea. He desired a halt to infighting between Catholics and Protestants in Germany because the Germans need to be united to fight their external enemies. He dislikes the idea of a foreign pope holding power over his people, but made a point of forming an alliance with the papal apparatus. He constantly spoke of god and providence, but held heterodox views. What of other Nazi leaders? Himmler, for example, prohibited SS men from being church leaders, but also from being atheists. If I had to speculate I’d figure he wanted them to concentrate on SS stuff, not waste time with church duties, but was simultaneously suspicious that any atheist could be a godless-communist--the great boogieman to Nazis. Himmler personally moved away from the Catholicism of his youth and into German mythology and the occult—not Christian but not atheistic either. Goring appears to have remained Lutheran while Bormann seams to be an atheist. There was a group that was quite anti-Christian and wanted to break the churches and a group that opposed them. Hitler at least did not support their plan and maybe actually opposed it. What about the average German? In 1939, 6 years into Nazi rule, the population was 3.5% neo-pagan and only 1.5% non-religious. If the Nazis had a goal of spreading atheism (something I’ve heard claimed but never supported) than they really sucked at it. With 94% of Germans being Christian, obviously most opposition to and support of the Nazis came from Christians. The Nazis could hardly have accomplished what they did if a majority of people were actively opposed to them and we can probably conclude that more people (and therefore more Christians) supported the Nazis than opposed them. Then there was a group, probably the majority, who were neither actively supporting nor actively opposing the Nazis, at least pre-war. Should we speculate on why the Nazis enjoyed the support and acquiescence of the majority of German Christians? Some of the Nazi ideas, notably opposition to the godless-communists, probably appealed to people as Christians. However, most of their agenda was appealing to people as Germans, either in addition to or without appeal to their Christian side. Revenge for the injuries of the Versailles treaty, regaining lost territory and population, a strong Germany, economic development, ect. all have a nationalistic, not religions, appeal. Look at the reasons for persecuting the Jews and you’ll find a mixture of religious and non-religious motives. Europe has a long history of anti-Semitism. Partly this is rooted in the idea of Jews as Christ-killers and the blood libel myth, but it is also based on the economic success of some Jews, particularly in the banking sector (ironically an area heavily dominated by Jews because they were often banned from trade or work guilds and even owning land, while the Catholic church disallowed Christians to charge each other usury). Add to that the view, in Germany at the time, that Jews as a major component of the group who stabbed Germany in the back at the end of the First World War and that they were seen as part of the international Communist movement and you have a hatred of Jews based on religious and social-economic-political ground. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
doesn't mean that there aren't hateful things in the bible |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
or that what is in the bible couldn't be interpreted so that it supports hateful views such as racist, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. views. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
And so has happened many times, in fact so many times that even average people on the street are getting fed up and leaving churces. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
Also your continual disparaging of things that are "politically correct" makes you sound like someone like Breivik. Is that what you are? |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
So AGS's accusations of "Finland being Nazis friend etc." does not compute with me. . |
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Fascism is rising in Finland. The party known as the "True Finns" is xenophobic and contains a hardcore Nazi faction. This blog distributes information about the True Finns and other fascists and racists operating in Finland. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I am also very, very anti-Nazi myself so that just seals the deal. |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
AT_STALKY, do you presume that the Tsar was a genuine Christian? What evidence do you have that this particular Tsar was actually a genuine Christian? |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
What evidence do you have that this particular Tsar was actually a genuine Christian? |
AT_Stalky wrote (View Post): |
It’s so easy for you... If a christan does something you don’t agree with, you just label him as a non-Christian.. No wonder there are only "good" Christians according to the “good” Christians… |
AT_Stalky wrote (View Post): |
Me, I will take the opposite position, and say that people who claim to be Christians, and whom are doing evil things are genuinely Christians....
And the Christians who are genuinely good only believe they are Christians, but instead they are unaware humanists ... |
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Yes, Hitler discouraged total atheism as he linked it with Communism. |
Dima wrote (View Post): |
Just 2 cents,
But USSR was never a state with total atheism - the Church was chased by Lenin, Trotskiy&Co but Stalin was pretty much ok with as far as it didn't interract with the State policy. But the Russian Orthodox Church was indeed linking the Fascism to the Godless army of Antichrist and pronounced the anathema on the German Forces on June 23, 1941 and were calling molebens for the glory of the RA arms and armed forces since the start of invasion. Since 1942 the ROCh bishops were chased by the German authorities on the occupied areas as only those prists/bishops who came with the Germans could run churches there. The German authorities also greatly supported a formation of different types of Sect houses, especially in Ukraine. |
Quote: |
The history of Christianity in the Soviet Union was not limited to repression and secularization. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religion. |
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The persecution of Christians in the USSR was the result of the violently atheist Soviet government. According to Orthodox Church sources, as many as fifty million Orthodox believers may have died in the twentieth century, mainly from persecution by Communists |
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The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. |
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“The church in the USSR has suffered more severe and sustained persecution than that of any nation in recent history," |
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Russian Mission Group Warns Of Crackdown On Evangelicals |
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Stalin, like Hitler, was a ruthless politician. |
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Stalin was also ok with the Church especially if they could rally his demoralised 1941 army with the motivation of a religious crusade against the anti-Christian Nazis |
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BUT.................., re a Christian-friendly Communist USSR.................... |
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Before i go there............, do you remember Sieterayos?
Siet is your communist's communist, or your Marxist's Marxist. Should we ask him what the Marxist view on Christianity is, or all religions for that matter? |
Quote: |
The history of Christianity in the Soviet Union was not limited to repression and secularization. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religion. |
Quote: |
Even in other ex USSR republics, Christianity is still Persecuted http://www.christianpersecution.info/russia.php |
Blackstump wrote (View Post): |
the sword of Damocles than the spear of Longinus,,, |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I didn't claim there aren't any neo-Nazis in Finland, there are some. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
So AGS's accusations of "Finland being Nazis friend etc." does not compute with me. . |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
your people were allies of the Nazis |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I was referring to your idea of Finland being very close to Nazi-Germany, which it wasn't. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I guess you won't take responsibility of what went on for example in the Jasenovac camp? |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
You should take responsability for all the war crimes committed in Europe, after all, you are a European. |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
your people were allies of the Nazis, therefore, YOU should take responsibility for what went on in the Jasenovac camp |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
Finland's union with Germany was dictated by the situation at hand. Once the situation changed we kicked the Nazi troops out. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
From what I hear there is plenty of neo-Nazi activity in Australia |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
And wasn't Australia founded as a colonial nation, in an area where there were already natives living. Somewhat problematic history. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
Your attacks against Muslims only make me more certain that you are of similar stance as many of these 'critics of multiculture', ideology that Breivik among others has promoted. |
ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post): |
There are some muslims coming to Australia, that are genuine assylum seekers, and dont bother me. For example the Hazara muslims from Afghanistan. The Hazara people integrate with Australians quite well and behave decently. The Hazara are welcome here |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
I guess you don't hate religion though, and that very much muffles your message of 'Muslim hate'. |
MajorFrank wrote (View Post): |
When scratching the surface these people often turn out hating not just Muslims but also people of 'wrong skincolour', and foreigners and basically everyone but themselves. |
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European anti-racism campaigners have criticised moves by Finnish authorities to colour-code the country's ID cards, with bright blue cards for native-born citizens and brown cards for all foreign nationals, calling the new scheme "legalised ethnic profiling". |
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