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#1: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:46 pm
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G'day Grognards

Well, i am almost finished tinkering with the data base text files (something you can play with endlessly).

Have even nikin proofed the data Very Happy

except there will still be no lend-lease AFV aside the HTs .

If nikin really wants US & UK AFVs, then he is welcome to make a submod

Soon i am going to start editing the 48 Campaign operations (x3) for the H2H (DOF3 default), German player and Russian player

DOF3 is intended to be released in both a COI & a CC3 version (happy troger?)

Beta testers will be required to playtest to find any errors especially in the area of unit upgrades as this is the biggest nightmare in data writing.
This will apply for the H2H Geteam & Ruteam files

Russian player Ruteam file

German player (wehrmacht) Geteam file

German player (SS) Geteam file

Also, when the Campaign OPs are done for the German player & Russian player submods, i want beta testers to test AI performance on the maps to make sure VLs positions do not cause problems for AI

Would also like volunteer/s with experience in editing COI/CC3 EXEs to make some needed changes to accomodate new Campaign names, particularly the ArmeeGruppeMitte Campaign.

Nembo says he is busy through mid 2012, but i believe will make some changes to the DOF UI screens including a new mainscreen with,..........again.... Confused

YES

You guessed it

Shocked

Invisible buttons! Cool

cheers

AGS

#2: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: southern_land,

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:50 pm
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... and he's back. cool

#3: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: vitamin, Location: behind enemy lines

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:46 pm
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I'm just curious but could you tell us what changes/improvements DOF3 are gonna bring to us? How is it gonna be different from DOF2 in general?

#4: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:25 am
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vitamin wrote (View Post):

I'm just curious but could you tell us what changes/improvements DOF3 are gonna bring to us? How is it gonna be different from DOF2 in general?

There are many minor "tweaks" involved which may be too numerous for me to remember and print here.
What i have done is make a Forum search for "DOF3" and found bits i have written previously re DOF3 and copied them to this post, then added a few other little bits

Have increased the number of weapon sounds so fewer weapons will share the same sounds.

The original CC3/COI sound.sfx file had only 108 sound slots available, of which only 50 were delegated to weapon sounds.

So in DOF2 i had to put extra weapon sounds in slots delegated to other non-weapon sounds, such as UI screen clicks, battle screen ready sound, H2H disconnect, etc.
This gave DOF nearly 60 weapon sounds.

Now i have created a sound.sfx file with 128 sound slots and no longer need to use non-weapon sound slots.
So now DOF3 will have about 70 weapon sounds!

Really, i don't know why another modder had not done this before!
Another groundbreaking AGS DOF innovation!

Tank availabilities have generally been cut back a little

The Gestopo units in the conscript section have been replaced by 7man versions of the 4man conscript teams.

In the AI submods
There are 2 GermanPlayer submods: a Wehrmacht v AI submod & a SS v AI submod
There have been many 4man infantry teams added in the Wehmacht submod (using SS slots).
There have been many 4man infantry teams added in the SS submod (using Wehmacht slots).

The OT-34/85 was added to the data files for DOF3 (at the expense of the T-20)

Flame tank OT-34 L-11 gun replaced by F-34 gun (happy nikin?)

Removed ther JSU-122 from 1943 (happy nikin?)

May remove PzF30 from summer 1943, or i'll just leave it in lieu of the faustpatrone

12cm/120mm mortars have been removed
The 12cm mortars slots in the Geteams files have been replaced with a 4man AT team with demo charges as requested by ll_Alexis_ll
The 8cm/82mm mortars now use the explosion graphics and shellholes of the 12cms (Like WF mod)

The 12.8cm K-40 L/61, was probably never deployed in a field gun carriage, so i have simply renamed it as the 15cm K-18 L/55, in DOF3 (just so i can jam it up nikin's nose)

The 12.8cm PaK-44 has been renamed 12.8cm PaK-44 81/3, as this version used the 2 wheeled split trail carriage, just so as to diffrentiate it from the 12.8cm PaK-44 81/1, which used the French GPF's 4 wheeled carriage (just so i can jam it up nikin's nose). Also, even if it were possible to add another 2 piece graphic for the 81/1, it would be too much of a time wasting exercise to do so.

Still in front of me is the gargantuan task of rebuilding all the Campaign operation scenarios Shocked

The DOF3 default Campaign Operations will be the DOF3 H2H Campaign Operations
The amount of Requistion points has been decreased for the DOF3 H2H Campaign Operations

There will be 48 DOF3 Campaign Operations, instead of 42 DOF2 Campaign Operations.

Some maps in the original 42 Campaign Operations will be replaced.

The 4 of the 6 new historical Campaign Operations will be:
2 Ops will be the Germans fighting through Belarussia in 1941, then, the same two map sets will be used for 2 OPs, being 2 legs of Operation Bagration in 1944, so the "to & fro" will be 3 years apart

These extra operations will help make up the 16 operations of the new :
Heeres Gruppe Mitte Campaign

Frankly, atm i cannot remember where i had planned the other 2 Campaign Operations, maybe it was 3 & 3.
3 more Barbarossa OPs & 3 Bagration OPs)

Part of the DOF3 concept is to have 48 Campaign Operations which can all be played by playing 3 seperate Campaigns each being 16 operations (Barbarossa, Hammer & Anvil & Reich on the Rocks)

So i have to complete 144 DOF Campaign Operation scenarios altogether Shocked

Most of which will just be making some modifications to existing DOF2 campaign operations scenarios, so only 18 DOF3 campaign operation scenarios have to be made from scratch Cool

There wil be a new MAIN screen & Splash screen (maybe some others).
There will probably be invisisble buttons again Confused

if Nembo does the screens for me again Wink

No new graphics as all my Paint Shop Pro trial versions have expired and i really don't want to go there.
So many hours of work.
But if anybody wants to submit some good new graphics, i'd add them if they are cool Cool

Would love it if somebody would make a good 10.5cm-leFH/18 graphic Smile

to replace the crappy one i made :)

Thats all i can think of ATM

If i think of any other significant changes, i will add them here in an edit later.

Any genuine helpful suggestions are welcome and will be considered.

Nitpicking criticisms will be ignored

cheers

AGS

#5: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: vitamin, Location: behind enemy lines

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:46 pm
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Thank you AGS for that detailed reply. As I can see DOF3 is gonna be a big improvement over DOF2. More variety in sounds and some new operations will be great I believe. Andl I'm glad that you mentioned reducing amount of tanks, however I'd suggest to make it a big cut - not just "little" one. While playing your Barbarossa campaign I often find maps where there's as many as 6 tanks on Soviet side:o So it's much more than 1/3 of alll units (and exceeding 1/2 when you add other armored vehicles). And since tanks are such huge infantry killing machines in CC, that makes using infantry units pretty pointless in most scenarios:( So if you asked me, I would limit availability of tanks to 3 per side (maybe excluding some battles like Kursk). That would much better reflect a real balance of forces used in WW2.

And one more thing, you wrote that default DOF3 campaign will be meant for H2H gameplay. But iirc, most people play only vs AI (there was a survey on that topic some time ago). So does it mean, you're not gonna make any AI tweaks to DOF3?

#6: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:56 am
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Cant limit sides to 3 tanks each, just not possible for the game engine. That could only be done in the source code.

There are 3 submods for playing the AI, they cant all be the default version

DOF was made primarily for H2H play.

Its not hard to download and install the submods.

Any AI tweaks will be in the DOF3 submods

CHEERS

AGS

#7: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: vitamin, Location: behind enemy lines

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:11 am
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Regarding tanks, if such a strict limit is not possible then there must be other way round. First, you wrote earlier in your post:
Tank availabilities have generally been cut back a little.
And second, there's this Infantry mod by Blabsky which "Reduces the instance of Armor in Cross of Iron" (a citation from http://closecombat.matrixgames.com/CoI/coimods.html but the link to the mod is broken so I haven't tried it out yet).

I really like that you want to reduce the amount of heavy armor in DOF3 - that will only make it better imo.

EDIT:
I don't know if Operation Braunschweig is already included in DOF2 but if it's not it would be great to have it in DOF3 (as a separate campaign for example).

#8: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:29 am
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vitamin wrote (View Post):

Regarding tanks, if such a strict limit is not possible then there must be other way round. First, you wrote earlier in your post:
Tank availabilities have generally been cut back a little.

vitamin wrote (View Post):

And second, there's this Infantry mod by Blabsky which "Reduces the instance of Armor in Cross of Iron".

]
Now you have become arguementative, don't be an irritating P.I.T,A, like nikin

Yes, you can make infantry mods with absolutely no tanks

but

It is impossible to make a limit of 3 tanks per side in CC3/COI

other methods of drastically cutting AFV numbers would either:

Destroy the balance of comparitive availabilites

or

Require removing most of the diversity of types of tanks

and even then you would fail to make a precise limit

Dont argue with me on this

Because you speak from a position of modding ignorance (like nikin)

vitamin wrote (View Post):

EDIT:
I don't know if Operation Braunschweig is already included in DOF2 but if it's not it would be great to have it in DOF3 (as a separate campaign for example).

DOF already includes several operations from FALL BLAU/Operation Braunschweig
now do your homework first before asking any more questions

cheers

AGS

#9: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: US_Brake, Location: USA

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:00 pm
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Good luck with DOF3 AGS! Looking Good.

Wish I could test, but my plate is full with BR1.

#10: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:12 am
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Reading and watching ArmeeGruppeSud!!! Will grab it when available but sorry I can test right now either....

#11: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:29 am
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US_Brake wrote (View Post):

Good luck with DOF3 AGS! Looking Good.

Wish I could test, but my plate is full with BR1.

. AWWW

Was thinking you would have been the 1st in line. Surprised

Have had one volunteer PM me, so thats a start, not ready for testing, because i just keep going,....

......aw, that could be better,.....tinker tinker,....

............ oh that could do with a tweak,..... tweak tweak

............dum dee dum....., hmm,... what if i........,

.......yeah why not........

...... tinker tinker ..... tweak tweak .....

.....how about...?

... mmmm ... lets see if this will work .......

Oh drat, i was supposed to start making the CampOps last week Confused

..... but hey ....., that would be nice,..... tinker tinker tinker

LOOK Shocked

where did the time go?

Just last night i increased the number of DOF's trademark multi-explosion GrenadeBundles among German infantry teams, so you're bound to see them go off much more often Very Happy

Tonight the Russians will finally get their RifleGrenades which they never had before.

Dum dee dum.........., hmmmmm...., what next...?

A modder's work is never done Rolling Eyes

@ vitamin

Sorry for snapping at you. Guess my wounds are still fresh from that knitpicking loser who's name i wont mention Wink

, plus i actually have a sore toe Crying or Very sad

CHEERS

AGS

...... tinker tinker ..... tweak tweak .....tinker tinker tinker

#12: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:11 am
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Quote:

Tonight the Russians will finally get their RifleGrenades which they never had before.

btw, rifle grenades were available for RA units in small scales at least up to the end of 1942.

#13: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: keyser Soeze,

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:57 pm
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When i play CC i play 90% DoF2, the maps and the units are the best i have seen in any mod or vanilla so far!

I would be happy to help you out AGS!

#14: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:29 am
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keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

When i play CC i play 90% DoF2, the maps and the units are the best i have seen in any mod or vanilla so far!

I would be happy to help you out AGS!

Thanks, Keyser

Not ready for testing yet

will message you when its ready for testing

cheers

AGS

#15: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: keyser Soeze,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:43 pm
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Sounds good!

#16: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: buuface, Location: Thailand

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:30 am
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Hi AGS! DOF3!! thats great news

Hi just want to mentioned that my expereience of DOF2 has been excellent.

The only major problem I encountered was the coding on many of the maps particularly the mountainous ones. (karpathaians ect)

My units, tanks and infantry often couldnt seem to negotiate what appeared to completely unblocked terrain in front of them, or would constantly go back and forth along a small stretch of land looking for a non existant path to where i asked them to go.

Sometimes after deployment stage my units wouldnt be able to move from thier starting locations, every order responded to by 'we cant go there!' ect.

I realise that you didnt create the maps themselves however If you are going to re-release this mod i think some one will deffinately have to look at the coding again..

#17: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:07 pm
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The possible reason for tanks not being able to go some place could be because of steep slopes on the mountainous maps.

Thats what i found when playing on the Caucasus Mountain map set

Those maps, just like real mountain areas, are not suited to tank warfare

Southern_Land made those maps, so they should be good Very Happy

The problem is usualy because its very hard to accurately depict the 3D image of steep slopes on a 2D picture map Confused

Remember, its fair because the AI and or, your H2H opponent cant drive there either

cheers

AGS

#18: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: keyser Soeze,

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:35 pm
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I have a few thoughts i would like to share ASG!

Im trying to think about stuff i would like to see changed, so i started with the German side.

I see my self as a pretty good player when it comes to H2H CoI and DoF2, so i feel i have some weight to the balance discussion!

The things i will focus on is mainly pricing, there are some units that i rarely ever get because i feel the price is to high compared to some other unit.

---------

Sdkfz

First off i want to ask what the difference is between a Sdkfz 250 & 251, seems its light and medium? What exactly is the difference? Do the medium take more dmg from mortars and MGs?

There seem to be kinda big jump in price 250 vs 251 with identical equipment?

I think in general that the Sdkfz ATs are to expensive, they can go up to 39p, and some light tanks go for ~45p, that's a no brainer. I think ~18-29 (instead of 20-39) would be better price ranger for all (non-mortar) Skdfz. Might have to compensate the light AT gun (3.7cm) from 23p to 20p.

Also the maybe lower the mortar Sdkfz from 40-45 to 38-40, maybe lower normal mortars with 2 points each to compensate, and maybe add 10 more rounds to the Sdkfz, this would make me think about using them more.

Tanks

PzIII is to expensive compared to PzIV

I don't think there is any good reason to get a p3 instead of a p4 when you have a choice, and the pricing is almost the same 2-3-4p apart. I would say take off ~10-30p on PzIII. (if not early then at least later when Pz4 was more common?)

AT-guns

7.5cm and 5cm is to close in price, 41 Vs 38, i know 5cm shots much faster but id like to have it down to around ~31-33.

Inf

Some of the better inf squads go up to 40-45p, i think its a bit much, inf can die so easy. I would like to see the most expensive inf around 35, and thats the elit elit, and maybe good inf at around 25-30, just some pointers, not sure its a good idea but it feels bit much as it is imo!

---------------------

This is just some of my thoughts after playing many H2Hs, would like to hear what you think! Il do the same with CCCP soon!

#19: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:49 pm
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Quote:

PzIII is to expensive compared to PzIV

actually PzIII was a high-tech in 1941 and was more expensive than PzIV that was kind of erzatz tank Wink

Quote:

7.5cm and 5cm is to close in price, 41 Vs 38, i know 5cm shots much faster but id like to have it down to around ~31-33.

pak38 had APCR earlier on so was more effective at CC3 combat ranges than pak40 Razz

#20: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: keyser Soeze,

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:06 pm
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Yes that's why i added that it might only be a good idea later on in the war.

But in booth cases there is no real reason not to take a PAK40 or PZ4, they can kill medium/big tanks, the others can not, its not a choice really.

If you make a bigger difference in price tho, there will be one Smile

#21: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:32 pm
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keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

I have a few thoughts i would like to share ASG!!

All feedback is welcome

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

The things i will focus on is mainly pricing, there are some units that i rarely ever get because i feel the price is to high compared to some other unit.

OK, this issue can be quickly sorted out

The CC3/COI modder does not set the unit prices,..... the game engine does!

The game engine calculates the unit RP price based on the unit's data

Unit RP value for each Vehicle is dependent upon many Data Variables

The main ones being:

armour values (its ability to survive attack)
the abilities of the Vehicle's weapons, their ability to cause damage including AP, HE, HT & SP values
the weapons accuracy level
the weapons Rate of Fire (RoF)
the quantity of each type of ammunition for each weapon
the number of crew memebrs
the morale level of the crew
the experience level of the crew
the rank of the vehicle commander
the crew's personal weapons
the traverse speed of turret (if applicable)

When coding vehicles, weapons, infantry teams etc nearly every little change you make will effect the units final RP value.

To lower the cost of something, i must make it weaker somehow...............

For example, if i change one crew member's personal weapon from a pistol to a MP40, it may add 1RP to the cost of that vehicle's RP unit value.

Sometimes, i will add/subtract data from units to manipulate RP prices. I did this alot, especially with infantry teams, just to avoid too many teams having the same price Very Happy

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

First off i want to ask what the difference is between a Sdkfz 250 & 251, seems its light and medium?

Yes, the Sdkfz 250 is the smaller of the two

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

Do the medium take more dmg from mortars and MGs?

No, but DOF HTs survive better than HTs from any other mod (and without increasing their armour above historical fact).
What i did was decrease infantry weapons pentration values, but increased their accuracy, this maintained their original RP value and overall effectiveness against infantry.
The pleasing side effect of this change, was that now rifle bearing infantry started gaining kills in thier debrief history, where, in the past, it was very rare for a rifleman to get a kill, unless he picked up an MG.
Also, mortar penetration values were reduced to make them less effective against HTs.
Only the 12cm was still realt effective against HTs.
They have been removed from DOF3

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

There seem to be kinda big jump in price 250 vs 251 with identical equipment?

Not realy, the main differences is that the Sdkfz 251 always has one more crew than a 250 and very few are identically armed, actually only one pair, the Sdkfz 250/1 & Sdkfz 251/1, the latter cost 4RP more, only because of 1 extra crew and extra ammo.

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

I think in general that the Sdkfz ATs are to expensive, they can go up to 39p, and some light tanks go for ~45p, that's a no brainer.

Realy?

There are some Data Variables that dont affect unit RP prices:
3 of them are: vehicle's speed, acceleration, & manouverability

HTs have all these 3 advantages over all tanks, even light tanks

The Sdkfz 250/9 (40RP) has identicle firepower to PzKpfw II (44RP).
The HT has less armour, but is faster and harder to hit,...no brainer?

Pz38t (60 RP) & Pz35t (46 RP) both have 3.7cm guns, v Sdkfz 250/10 with 3.7cm gun (38 RP).
The HT has less armour, but is cheaper, faster and harder to hit,...no brainer?

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

7.5cm and 5cm is to close in price, 41 Vs 38, i know 5cm shots much faster but id like to have it down to around ~31-33.

The 5cm PaK has a much higher RoF than the 7.5cm and it AP value is not far short of the 7.5cm PaK.
To lower the 5cm's price, i would have to weaken it somehow.
Or i could make the 7.5cmPaK more expensive by giving their crew better personal weapons

Don't underestimate the 5cm, it can knockout a JS-2 inside 100m range!

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

PzIII is too expensive compared to PzIV

Again, dont be fooled, dont underestimate the Pz-IIIs
DIMA is pretty much on the money.
Just buy whatever you think best, or can afford.
If you are a few points short of buying a Pz4 or Pak40, a PzIII or PaK38 is still good value Wink

keyser Soeze wrote (View Post):

Some of the better inf squads go up to 40-45p, i think its a bit much, inf can die so easy. I would like to see the most expensive inf around 35, and thats the elit elit, and maybe good inf at around 25-30, just some pointers, not sure its a good idea but it feels bit much as it is imo!

. Thats no problem M8

Just don't buy anythig over 35rp if you think its a waste of money Very Happy

The only way to make them cheaper, is to make them weaker Shocked

Can easily knock off 12-20 points from a Stosstruppe by taking away all their panzerfausts Wink

They may die as easily as cheaper teams, but they are much more dangerous & destructive! Evil or Very Mad

CHEERS

ASG :wink:

.

#22: Re: Volunteers for DOF3 beta testers Author: ll_Alexis_ll, Location: Paris, France

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:26 pm
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Great news AGS!
DOF 2 was already a big hit. Thank you for raising the bar even more!

I should rush to finish my H2H DOF2 campaign now...

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Cross of Iron

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