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Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot?

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Close Combat Series -> Total Realism Sub Mod

#1: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: CC_CO,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:59 pm
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432 meters to the target and the Sherman II manages to knock it out in a frontal shoot. It was a Befehls Panther A.

The Panther did manage to immobilise the Sherman though, although positioned behind a hedge.

Has the Sherman II special antitank rounds available, just like the 57mm antitank gun has?

It was in a h2h game.

N&C4_shermanII_knocking out a Panther with a frontal shoot 432 meters.jpg

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#2: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:03 pm
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Nice one, never seen such before Smile

.

No, 75mm can't do that...
Sure he hadn't have 57mm nearby?

#3: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: CC_CO,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:20 pm
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There were no 57 in that sector. I just checked the save-file, and my Sherman has the kill in the record.

But it was a strange round actually. My teams performed surprisingly well. One of my 3-man Recon team, killed an entire Stösstruppe in a meeting-crawling-engagement, in a hedge.

Anyhow, we both were surprised that my Sherman II was able to knock out a Panther on that distance - frontal shoot.

We played the game today.

awesome recon team N&C4 killing german infantry by the squads .jpg

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#4: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:28 pm
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Cool

Dima, when look at the attached image, it see that the Sherman are not using AP but SP munition..
What preformance on the SP?

/S

#5: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: CC_CO,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:33 pm
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SP, what does that stand for?

#6: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: Dima,

Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:05 pm
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Quote:

What preformance on the SP?

95mm@100m - that's APC.

Quote:

SP, what does that stand for?

SP=special, APC for 75mm.

#7: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:06 am
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Hi guys

Sounds like imperfect data

There is a column in the "Vehicles" file that is designated "Best Kill" according to the Qclone texts

The number designated in that column defines the absolute best possible kill (in terms of armour penetration) that the vehicle's weapons can achieve.

In CC, it is possible for a tank to fluke a kill, up to, but not beyond, its "Best Kill" rating, even if its main gun's Armour penetration data does not include an armour penetration value that high in the "Weapons" text file.

Just thought you may like to know Very Happy

CHEERS

AGS

#8: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:33 am
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WoW AGS, you are opening my eyes on CC data Smile

.

The only explanation I see is that it was ultra-critical hit (probably in turret ring) Smile

#9: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: MF_Church,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:16 am
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hehheh . . .

Dima ~ has seen the ~ light? ;)

a Rev

valation !

;)

#10: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:23 am
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Dima wrote (View Post):

WoW AGS, you are opening my eyes on CC data Smile

You're welcome comrade

Dima wrote (View Post):

The only explanation I see is that it was ultra-critical hit (probably in turret ring) Smile

If i was going to try to explain a fluke kill, i would say "a shot through the driver's view window", or "a shot straight down the main gun barrel"!

The "Best Kill" anomily came to light when i created the DOF T34-43, I think i used T34/85 Vehicles file line and just pasted in T34-76 turret data into the T34/85 vehicles file line.

Then i wondered why, in testing, that T34-43s could knock out TIGERs at up to 500m!
With the maximum armour penetration in the Weapons file for its gun being less than the frontal
armour of the TIGER, how could this be?!

Then i discoverd that the T34-43 still had the T34/85's "Best Kill" rating in the "Vehicles" file........... AHA!

Dima wrote (View Post):

btw, rifle grenades were available for RA units in small scales at least up to the end of 1942.

OK, does this mean that RA units did not have rifle grenades from 1943 onwards?

Thankyou Dima for opening my eyes to factual historical data from The Eastern Front! Very Happy

Cheers

AGS

Last edited by ArmeeGruppeSud on Wed May 16, 2012 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total

#11: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:46 am
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MF_Church wrote (View Post):

Dima ~ has seen the ~ light? Wink

Brother, we can pray that Dima may see the light, the truth and the way.

Dima already has a love of the truth, being a truth seeker is a real advantage in finding salvation Very Happy

Cheers

AGS

#12: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:46 pm
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AGS

Anyway, the Panther Model A, has a lower front hull armour 60mm thick /55deg, .
As Dima mentioned the turret ring is always a weak spot.
And the panther A also has a construction misstake in the gun mantle, where a round may ricochet downward into the “thin” hull top armour. This was addressed later in the G model in Sep 1944.

Maybe consider that the Sherman 75mm gun can once in …. a fluke chance kill a panther… in the front.
Cause that what is happening here, its not like it’s a regular thing..

/S

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Wed May 16, 2012 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

#13: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:53 pm
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delete

#14: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:14 pm
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Quote:

Dima ~ has seen the ~ light? Wink

nah, that was an irony - still only darkness in front of me Smile

Quote:

You're welcome comrade.
The "Best Kill" anomily came to light when i created the DOF T34-43, I think i used T34/85 Vehicles file line and just pasted in T34-76 turret data into the T34/85 vehicles file line.

hehe, i was thinking you are making laugh Smile

.
of cause best kill is 95mm for 75mm in TRSM.

Quote:

OK, does this mean that RA units did not have rifle grenades from 1943 onwards?

yeah, no mention of them since 1943.
maybe some SB? Wink

.

btw SVT were removed from Guards TOE in late 1943 as well.

Last edited by Dima on Wed May 16, 2012 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

#15: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: 0202243,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:24 pm
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maybe panther was in 'steep angle' and you could hit the belly of the front plate Rolling Eyes

#16: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: Dima,

Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:44 pm
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Quote:

maybe panther was in 'steep angle' and you could hit the belly of the front plate

that map is flat IIRC.

#17: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: ArmeeGruppeSud,

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:19 am
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CC_CO wrote (View Post):

Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot?
432 meters to the target and the Sherman II manages to knock it out in a frontal shoot. It was a Befehls Panther A

Dima wrote (View Post):

No, 75mm can't do that...

Dima wrote (View Post):

The only explanation I see is that it was ultra-critical hit (probably in turret ring) Smile

ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post):

If i was going to try to explain a fluke kill, i would say "a shot through the driver's view window", or "a shot straight down the main gun barrel"!

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

the panther A also has a construction mistake in the gun mantle, where a round may ricochet downward into the “thin” hull top armour.

0202243 wrote (View Post):

maybe panther was in 'steep angle' and you could hit the belly of the front plate Rolling Eyes

None are the above reasons can be valid reasons why it happenned in the game.
They are all reasonable explanations of how it could happen in "real life".
But the game does not include such possibilities (turret ring, view ports, shot down barrel, richochet down from mantlett, except the last one, which was discounted because of a flat map)

But in the game, if the Sherman II's "Best Kill" rating is 95mm in the "Vehicles".adb and it's 75mm gun's maximum armour penetration is 95mm in the "Weapons"adb, then it shouild be impossible for it to knock out a Panther from the front, provided the panther's minimum frontal armour value is 96mm or more!

The only feasable explanations could be:

Was its turret turned to the side?

Or did the game engine think it was?

Or the host PC of the H2H game was possesed by a DEM Twisted Evil

who did not like the grognard playing as German Rolling Eyes

CHEERS

AGS

#18: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: Dima,

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:48 am
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Yeah, side turret hit could make it at such range.

#19: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:16 pm
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ArmeeGruppeSud wrote (View Post):

They are all reasonable explanations of how it could happen in "real life". But the game does not include such possibilities (turret ring, view ports, shot down barrel, richochet down from mantlett, except the last one, which was discounted because of a flat map)

A good moder should always try to mimic reality, even if the game "doesn’t" include such possibilities....

Very Happy

#20: Re: Sherman II knocking out a Panther in a frontal shoot? Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:06 pm
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I'm thinking it was a side shot and the Panther 'rolled' into a frontal position after being struck. Yeah... that's it. Wink

Close Combat Series -> Total Realism Sub Mod

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