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#1: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:49 pm
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Sometimes I think I have seen pretty much all there is to see in a CC game.

After all, I have been playing a long time, but I admit, most of it against the AI. So, this thread is dedicated to the things that keep me playing this wacky game.

So, all you overrated Game Ranger types, behold Stwa's seminar for precise CC tactics.

Check your weapons at the door, and NOOBS Need Not Apply.

#2: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:57 pm
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CC4 Dasburg

I guess after you have played a few thousand games or so, crazy stuff just doesn't register, like it did when you first started out.

It is amazing how much luck plays a part in CC battles. Check out the map below. I have used colored rectanges/squares to mark just a few locations that are visible on the screenie.

Yellow: American AT gun threads a clear shot between 2 buildings to take out German Panzer IV.

Red: German sniper, uses dead buddy for cover, and snipes American BAR Rifle squad in the woods.

Green: American Bazooka team needs all five rounds to hit German Panzer IV at extremely close range.

#3: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:17 pm
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Please disclose all information.
1) Where was the AT_Gun,Sniper,Zook Team?

You can just highlight them on the .MMM if you want using same color codding method.

#4: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:50 pm
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I tried to indicate both source and target with the indicated colors on the main map. Just zoom out the screenie, and you should see the colored rectangles.

I could not show the location of the AT gun, but it was in the Northwest corner of the map, just south of the American held VL. You can see that on the mini map. Next time I will mark the mini map too, as you suggested. Idea

The sniped American BAR squad are displayed in the Soldier details pop-up on the right.

#5: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: MajorFrank,

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:32 pm
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Nice. That's what makes CC-series stand head above rest, the chaotic scenes of the battlefield. Makes me want to get Modern Tactics, as I only have the 'ancient' (but still good) CC3 & 5.

#6: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:44 pm
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Those are all acceptable LOS inmho

What you didn't do was attack the Bridge with enough support for your Tank.
And you didn't use the shallow water crossing to the south.
There for your attack failed and you will have to play this map again in order to get the exit VL you truly need.

Better Luck next time. Smile

#7: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:30 am
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

Those are all acceptable LOS inmho

What you didn't do was attack the Bridge with enough support for your Tank.
And you didn't use the shallow water crossing to the south.
There for your attack failed and you will have to play this map again in order to get the exit VL you truly need.

Better Luck next time. Smile

Just to be sure, so there is no confusion. I am not complaining, and BTW I controlled the Americans.

The AI controlled the Germans. And the AI did use the shallow water access across the river. Idea

I know because I sent a Recon Team down there (it doesn't show on the map), and they tried to enter a small house, and in that house was a single German Grenadiere, who shot up the entire Recon Team, one at a time, as they tried to enter the house through a window. Exclamation

This topic will require more setup time than most, but please remember the topic is NOOBS Need Not Apply. Hopefully that will become more clear as we go along.

#8: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:01 pm
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Do you even have a point here?
And who you calling Noob?

#9: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:27 pm
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Sorry, but playing against the AI in any game of the CC series does not help to improve a person's tactical skills, actually it rather dulls the player's tactical thinking. Playing against the AI may be only considered as a means of practicing the mod and maps. Otherwise it is very boring due to the AI's timid and uncoordinated attacks.

So, to stwa and other CC brothers out there, I would strongly recommend that you play against human opponents online, of course if you have the time and if you prefer more challenging gameplay. Gameranger is actually pretty decent for online CC and there are people around most of the time.

Pzt_Crackwise

#10: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:36 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

Do you even have a point here?
And who you calling Noob?

Do you even have a point here?

As a general rule, when you hit the Print Screen button on your keyboard, your system captures a screen shot that the UI was presenting to the Human Player. In our case, that would be moi (Stwa).

And who you calling Noob?

Dont worry, your secret is safe here. Just don't stray too far away from the thread. Idea

#11: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:48 pm
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Pzt_Crackwise wrote (View Post):

Sorry, but playing against the AI in any game of the CC series does not help to improve a person's tactical skills, actually it rather dulls the player's tactical thinking. Playing against the AI may be only considered as a means of practicing the mod and maps. Otherwise it is very boring due to the AI's timid and uncoordinated attacks.

So, to stwa and other CC brothers out there, I would strongly recommend that you play against human opponents online, of course if you have the time and if you prefer more challenging gameplay. Gameranger is actually pretty decent for online CC and there are people around most of the time.

Pzt_Crackwise

Thanks for the post. You caught on to the main jist of the thread right away. (unlike some others) Laughing

The point you make is of course the standard one that we have all heard a million times down through the years. Hopefully, if I have time to develop the thread, maybe some minds will change. And whether you play against another Human or play in one of several Human modes against the AI, there are some tactical considerations, that can be obeyed if you prefer. Idea

Hint - unlike the game tactics presented in the screenshot above. Exclamation

#12: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:21 pm
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You should have titled this "The Crystal Ball Thread"

#13: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:23 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

You should have titled this "The Crystal Ball Thread"

Duly noted, but hang in there, we need ya. Exclamation

#14: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: MF_Church,

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:41 pm
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Any effort to post a thread to enlighten and share personal joys is a 'blessing.' {Hence} [Let's not get too personal or take it too personal]

Let's as TEAM close combat players try to 'add' to that & if need be die to our hurt emotions b4 we place them in here.

It smarts! I know.

But we all will think the other fellow IS Smart! for having done some needful 'curbing'.

You can still say what you like... just lacking the sting and vingar and more edifying info for all to read about our love for this game.

Thanks to Stwa for starting this and everyone who added to it!

It is richer for it !

p.s. I would love for everyone to Join me in a FREE trial For ww2online.

p.p.s. I think everyone would love it. (Maybe love it too much.) And with everyone's talent for ww2 games.. what a blast!!! :)

:D

#15: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:23 am
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As some of the Noobs above suggested, Single Player games can and will dull your tactical thinking.

However, these same Noobs also postulate, that Multiplayer games can sharpen your skills. It is this primary (and never ending), misnomer that will be challenged in this thread.

Multiplayer has a number of shortcomings, that most gamers just do not want to discuss.

In this thread we will talk about tactics, but in a different sense than you are acustom. We will focus on eliminating brain dead decisions, that always seem to make the other side seem lucky. (as in our Dasburg example)

But first, lets clear the air about Multiplayer, so Noobs can fully understand what it is and is not about.

#16: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:37 am
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Most Multiplayer Games Lack Imagination

As you might imagine, multiplayer lounges grow up defining their own culture over time. (like most social web sites). It is this culture, that defines site rules of decorum, but more importantly site rules concerning the type of combat each game will normally present.

This is necessary, so players will not develop missions where the opponents feel like they have been ambushed or suckered into a game they cannot win.

In so doing, the missions lack creativity and imagination. Not so in Single Player games as the following exageration should suffice.

Last edited by Stwa on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:00 am; edited 1 time in total

#17: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:49 am
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Most Multiplayers Overestimate Their Value as Tacticians

The assumption is that one is playing against Human Players and winning, therefore the applied tactics are surperior than those that can be applied in any Single Player game.

Good tactics are always important and they can be applied in Multiplayer AND Single Player games.

But good tactics are NOT everything, as the following screenies will cleary show.

#18: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:38 am
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Multiplayers Must Trash the AI by Rote

It's a byproduct of their culture, so I am including it here in support of the Lack of Imagination argument.

But wouldn't the capabilities of the AI be partially determined by its Force Prototype or Battlegroup. Question

Wouldn't the same hold true for the Human/Multiplayer. Question

OH, don't forget to apply those good Human Player tactics. Laughing

#19: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Pzt_Crackwise, Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:01 pm
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Stwa, it is really hard to follow your point mate yet alone understand your motivation. I don't know if you are being sarcastic about multiplayer gamers and what they argue, but I would recommend spending your time in a more useful manner, since I don't think I am the only one who has a hard time trying to understand your arguments. Or perhaps you are trashing around the game's silly AI, and I didn't get the joke?

Pzt_Crackwise

#20: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:23 pm
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Most of these Noob Articles (over the years), have been an effort to get players to get involved in the details of CC.

As a general rule, I do not try to tell people how they should have fun with these games, or how they should spend their time on the site.

If you can't understand the threads, then keep trying, if you feel up to it. Just remember, they are normally geared for Noobs (people just starting out). Idea

The multiplayer/singleplayer argument is as old as the hills, and its a lot of fun (for moi) to contrast the two. Idea

#21: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:37 pm
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Thank-You Pzt_Crackwise

I don't see any discussion on Tactics either when Stwa shows an Airfield Map with no cover,looks to be no support and pretty much charging his men to the area he needs to capture.
That's not a tactic,that just follows under the category of it is what it is.

In the Omaha map I can't figure out what side he is playing.
Axis: No real tactics there as they have 5 Tanks and an AT_Gun well positioned to stop anything.
Allies: Well he's screwed,unless he can destroy them all.

#22: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:43 pm
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I don’t believe that there is a straight forward tactical fight culture in the H2H community. The key is to change the tactics or logical objectives all the time and be inconsistent to a degree so one is not predictable. That’s the road to being successful in H2H in the long run, IMO.

Playing the AI, is how 99% of the people experience CC. There must be some thing there that offers some grate player experience, or ppl would not bother play this game. How one chose to play it, is no concern of me, as long as one get some good time out of it.
Though, if a player experience that he can’t get a thrill out of the AI, then he have two options, get a vet mod. That will keep him at his toes for some time. And in the end, if that don’t do it, then one can only turn to the H2H games or scrap the game.

The H2H games is also social to a degree, that offers revards that that AI can never offer. That dimension of the H2H game should not be forgotten in the debate imo.

Just my thoughts.

That was my short description of H2H game play, for a longer more boring explanation of my H2H experience, click the button:

Hidden:

/Stalk

Last edited by AT_Stalky on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

#23: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:45 pm
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platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

Thank-You Pzt_Crackwise

I don't see any discussion on Tactics either when Stwa shows an Airfield Map with no cover,looks to be no support and pretty much charging his men to the area he needs to capture.
That's not a tactic,that just follows under the category of it is what it is.

In the Omaha map I can't figure out what side he is playing.
Axis: No real tactics there as they have 5 Tanks and an AT_Gun well positioned to stop anything.
Allies: Well he's screwed,unless he can destroy them all.

I don't see any discussion on Tactics either when Stwa shows an Airfield Map with no cover,looks to be no support and pretty much charging his men to the area he needs to capture.

I like you guys following the thread and all, but please look closer. They were NOT MEN, they were ZOMBIES. Exclamation

And there were no Victory Locations either. Exclamation

In the Omaha map I can't figure out what side he is playing.

I defer to my previous post regarding the functionality of the Print Screen button. Laughing

#24: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:53 pm
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Stwa wrote (View Post):

. They were NOT MEN, they were ZOMBIES.

There are and has been army’s that regarded those attributes as excellent soldier quality’s.

#25: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:07 pm
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Quote:

Multiplayers Must Trash the AI by Rote It's a byproduct of their culture, so I am including it here in support of the Lack of Imagination argument.

I must defend my self. Laughing

The culture is not CC H2H specific. It has been a part of warfare for 2200 years. Since the battle of Cannae.

The Cannae annihilation battle idea I have also reflected over. And I use that sometimes but not always. As an example of how I see on total destruction, and how my opponent see it, in this game at this phase is illustrated by this image and how it was analysed, from this thread from 2008 (middle of the page):

This thread

#26: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:20 pm
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The Multiplayer Ladder Seeks to Provide a Unidimensional Experience

In its heyday, the Multiplayer Ladder was a way for players to seek competitive rankings amongst one another in a community of gamers.

It was not all together a bad idea, but its very nature insured a singlular, unidimensional game experience.

Of course, that was the straight up tactical fight, where forces were roughly equal. This idea (in theory) was an attempt to be sure the rankings would reflect the skill of the individual players.

To be sure, many players enjoyed this experience until it ran dry. Never mind, some of its more ugly facets (like overestimating ones ablity), forced many sites to employ scads of social conduct rules.

#27: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:46 pm
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Yep, the ladder game was how the CC was first enjoyed in H2H.
The ladder evolved into community organized competitions on set maps and sometimes individual and sometimes in groups.

Committing to a GC was often seen as impossible as it took several hundred of games to complete. The internet flimsy world was not the ideal for that..

So there was very few GC being played back then. The change from ladder to GC was perhaps a result of the developing social “structure” of the community. Where the ladder games made us know each others, formed a community with known names / persons.

Relations formed during the ladder years and the GC took over as the means to play H2H as it offers a more diverse game experience. Yep, in that sense the ladder “unidimentional” game was boring, endless repetition that offered not more than the “exit” button after the game, and at best a reported game victory. Thats why its totaly gone today.

Again, I go back to the social dimension of the H2H game; it’s a part of the positive side of a human opponent. Its not only about game preformance.

Just my thoughts.

#28: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:07 pm
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Multiplayer Games Have Simplistic Victory Conditions

Generally, these conditions are just the ones provided by the game itself, which usually means the player capturing the most Victory Locations wins. In addition the VL ownership between players would help classify a overall victory status (i.e. Major, Minor, Total, etc...)

There is nothing wrong with this per se, but before too many games elapse, even Noobs start to see the flaws inherint in this system. With Single Player games, one is free to impose any additional and unrestricted victory conditions that the game system itself does not provide.

Now, that is not to say, that two multiplayers that are familiar with one another might not impose additional victory conditions to add spice to a game. I am sure it has happened, but consider the Multiplayer Ladder again, which actively works against such provisions.

As I stated previously, I knew this thread would take more setup time than most. Just a few more posts regarding Multiplayer and we can proceed into the discussion of Single Player tactical considerations and various modes of play.

#29: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:49 pm
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Stwa, as far as I know, the ladder game in CC is dead. For CC3 it was dead in 2001, and in CC5 it died like in 2004 or 5. The strongest ladder community is the CC2 community who are still at it to a degree, but no ladder games played there at all over several days now….

My impression is that the single game play in CC H2H is not happening.

Most if not all H2H is in GC games. None or very few construct there “own” GC or OPs and such, ppl use the stock GC delivered with the mod or game. This ensure the GC is tested and balanced, as it’s a major undertaking to commit to a GC lasting several hundred games. And a mistake in the construction of an own made GC will be fatal and a huge mess and disappointment.

Many ppl go back 10 years or more. Many run the GC from both sides, that ensure a clear winner can be considered. Though, I suppose the reward is in the games in them self and to challenge one self and do the best one can with what one got is reward enough.
Like a golf game, one can feel like a winner when one beaten once own handicap ie: preformed well against a good opponent, or preformed well at a hard map, or preformed well in a battle where once units was much poorer than the opponents. Etc etc. I don’t believe there’s just a single homogeny victory condition in a GC, it’s down to individuality.

And the idea that VL is what matters in a GC, is not really so for me and for the experienced GC players. The VL are nominal values, in a GC the nominal VL are of no importance. The importance in a GC is the real valued locations. As in a height, a ridge, a village that give protection, a hedge line, perhaps some bunkers, and the only VL that are important and have real values are the exits where the supplies come through, and where one can move out from into whatever map one have plans to move to at the strategic level.
This refers to CC4-5 strategy level. I suppose thats why them games are so popular?

/S

#30: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:20 pm
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Hi Stalky,

I can see from your posts that you understand what I am saying (and where I am going with this thread). Maybe single game H2H will return when Slitherene releases PITF.

You make some great points, and you are lucky in the sense that you have made great friends in the community (like Dima), and you guys could both take the time to play a GC.

I also know you guys like both the strategic and tactical aspects of CC, and are the types of players that would benefit most from H2H play of any kind. Unfortunately, not everyone can get the time for a H2H Campaign. I have started several CC5 campaigns, but never finished one.

At my house, we have done some single player H2H, and it can be a great experience, but for the real stuff, we go with no VLs (or just a few invisible ones), no time limit, and a "stay down" AI. The goal is to flush him out, without getting your teams shot up in the process. Having a squad shot up or a vehicle destroyed means defeat.

As far as I know, there is still some CC2 Ladder Stuff maybe over at Tournament house, and it was my intention to mention all aspects of CC H2H past and present. I think the final point, when made, will put the wraps on why H2H stuggles at least with these game titles.

Last edited by Stwa on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

#31: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: AT_Stalky,

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:56 pm
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Sounds cool Stwa. My son is 9 now, and he’s sort of showing some signs that CC may be for him to. I hope.. But the competition from other games are fearce. Star Wars Battlefront, and strategy games like Anno...

The GC I refer to started in 2008, we are still at it. Back some 5-10 years we rushed through several GC simultaneous with many opponents. Then: jobs, kids, and.. well, all the reasons why most ppl don’t play H2H came in between… No wonder AI opponent dominates the CC-games played.
Hopefully, we shall continue the GC again this summer. That’s the plan anyway…

Thanks for the threads Stwa

/S

#32: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:43 pm
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AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):

Stwa, as far as I know, the ladder game in CC is dead. For CC3 it was dead in 2001, and in CC5 it died like in 2004 or 5. The strongest ladder community is the CC2 community who are still at it to a degree, but no ladder games played there at all over several days now….

My impression is that the single game play in CC H2H is not happening.

Most if not all H2H is in GC games. None or very few construct there “own” GC or OPs and such, ppl use the stock GC delivered with the mod or game. This ensure the GC is tested and balanced, as it’s a major undertaking to commit to a GC lasting several hundred games. And a mistake in the construction of an own made GC will be fatal and a huge mess and disappointment.

Many ppl go back 10 years or more. Many run the GC from both sides, that ensure a clear winner can be considered. Though, I suppose the reward is in the games in them self and to challenge one self and do the best one can with what one got is reward enough.
Like a golf game, one can feel like a winner when one beaten once own handicap ie: preformed well against a good opponent, or preformed well at a hard map, or preformed well in a battle where once units was much poorer than the opponents. Etc etc. I don’t believe there’s just a single homogeny victory condition in a GC, it’s down to individuality.

And the idea that VL is what matters in a GC, is not really so for me and for the experienced GC players. The VL are nominal values, in a GC the nominal VL are of no importance. The importance in a GC is the real valued locations. As in a height, a ridge, a village that give protection, a hedge line, perhaps some bunkers, and the only VL that are important and have real values are the exits where the supplies come through, and where one can move out from into whatever map one have plans to move to at the strategic level.
This refers to CC4-5 strategy level. I suppose thats why them games are so popular?

/S

Hey Stalky,
Just a note on the CC2 crowd at Tournament House. They are having a tourney at the moment with 12 H2H matches determining the final 4 out of about 9 total. THANKS TO MOOXE!!!!

Also PzLeader has several GCs going with kilroy and jpmaster that after the campaign they update the ladder standings. You are right tho... only about 10 to 12 active players at the moment. I personally have been playing CC5 for the most part even tho I keep up with the tourney going on. Thanks for your input and all the campaigns you have posted in the past... I really enjoyed them. Looking forward to the next!
Best regards.

#33: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:06 am
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Usually, Multiplayer Games are Played on a standardized Time Limit

This may really be a function of the CC game the participants are using, since I am not altogether sure if any CC game beyond CCMT will allow a game with NO time limit.

To be sure, Human Beings place a premium upon those players that can think accurately and quickly. And so they should. But with a game as complex as CC, time limits may in most circumstances relegate the games to a gladiatorial regime, where the map you are playing on serves as the collosium or arena.

This gladiatorial regime favors the quick click fest, and its resluting carnage. This is perfect for competition style games, but just how realistic is this. Is taking 30 percent casualties or more, what your commander envisioned, when he ordered you to take the objectives.

The real answer here, is it depends. If its Omaha Beach, thats one thing, but quite another if its the Radar Station at Cardonville.

However, the real pisser of using time limts, is missing out on the individual soldier actions that occur all over the battlefield, as each soldier or vehicle is locked into its own drama of life and death in CC. If you recall the Dasburg battle on page 1 at the top of the thread, I itemized just a few of the these events that I witnessed during the course of the battle. Undoubtably, there were many more.

#34: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:48 am
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Multiplayer Games Provide a Social Construct for its Participants

Believe it or not, this is the good news and the BAD news as well. The old adage being, choose your opponents wisely.

Nevertheless, many people find even limited social constructs on the internet to be a satisfying experience.

Playing against an AI can sometimes produce a hollow, dull feeling, that can be perceived as physical in nature.

Sometimes, I get that feeling when I am playing even solitaire or chess against an AI opponent.

Multiplayer games provide UNCONTROLLED immersion (because there are 2 players), which is the instant remedy for these kind of feelings.

But what I have discovered over time, is that most people want to dictate (or control) the level of immersion, that satisfies them, at any given moment. And of course this can only be accomplished when playing against the AI.

#35: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:20 am
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Multiplayer Games Can Never Provide a Complete CC Experience

I suppose, there could be those players that would categorically reject any or all games against the AI. It sounds good in theory, but I will bet it is rare in practice.

Some CC games allow gamers to construct very challenging missions against the AI, where other games are limited. For instance with CCMT, one can easily create missions that just cannot be won by the Human Player. I presented the Tare Green battle on page 2 as an exageration to this point.

If your game allows for these facets, then the Human Player can design away, developing missions that will satisfy an immersion level that is appropriate for that player, or will allow for the player to assume various paces or postures during the game itself.

Most players will involve themesleves in the latter, where some players will find challenging Multiplayer games as a supplement to the total CC experience.

Last edited by Stwa on Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total

#36: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:52 am
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Whew Exclamation

The setup for this thread took almost 3 pages.

The longest of any Noob thread I have ever attempted. I hope people will still follow because I intend to discuss Single Player (modes of play) and basic tactics (or actually common sense) stuff for single players, even those who are naturally layed back in their approach.

If you can accept the premise offered in the previous post, then you might find what follows interesting. I will rephrase the premise

If it is possible for a human player to design a mission or operation that is impossible for the human player to win, then it is possible to create a variable and challenging AI through the same process.

#37: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:12 am
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Hey Frasier.......

Does Lillith know you hang out here?

#38: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:03 pm
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I haven't seen her since she split for the eco-pod.

Besides, I thought she was with you now, thank god. Idea

#39: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:16 pm
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HP Defender - AI Hopeless Attacker

You would be shocked how many players deliberately use this game mode. For years on end, from time to time, I would see forumites complain about how the AI refused to attack their impregnable fortified positions.

In our example, to get the attackers to run to the seawall, you may have to insure that each attacking team has the highest morale possible. Otherwise, they may cower around the tank obstacles, forcing you to shoot them up at longer ranges.

With CCMT, it is generally much harder to get troops to advance in the first place, and almost impossible if they are under any form of sustained fire. So, knowing your game system is helpful in predicting the behavior of the attackers.

These games are fun for the Single Player that likes to anihilate the attackers. Here Single Players aren't required to do anything except deploy the troops into their defenses.

Once done, you can hit Begin and just sit back and watch the carnage. You can add a few tanks to your battlegroup. You really only need a few, to stop the attack cold.

If your battle editor allows you to define the exact location and size of the deployment zones you can vary the zones proximity to one another and this will create what appears to be more urgency on the part of the attackers.

Common sense tactics involve deployment into the avaiable defenses. Usually that means dispersing your machine guns into covered areas like pill boxes, etc. Rifle teams into the trenches, and set any tanks slightly back to foil any zooka teams that feel lucky.

You will need to scatter (usually 2-6) Victory Locations into the deployment areas of the defenders. Do not place VLs in the deployment zone of the attackers, and this should help get the attackers moving toward the available VLs.

If your game system doesn't allow modifcation to the number and location of the VLs, AI behavior will be more eratic or perhaps unrealistic. The AI usually tries to capture VLs, because the AI is under the impression that whoever captures the most VLs wins the game. Please remember for CC4, CC5, WAR, TLD, and LSA, some of the VLs are there to support the Campaign Game, and really have much less meaning when attempting a single game.

#40: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:24 am
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AI Defender - HP Hopeless Attacker

The exact antithesis of the game mode presented above. And I will recall the Tare Green scenario again (on page 2), where the clever AI was able to use a force comprised of 10 Panzer IVs and several AT guns to totally repulse an American landing using infantry forces only.

The Tare Green Scenario was a deliberate overstatement. But the AI just doesn't need that much force to anihilate the HP Attacker. In fact, for this example, I have just reversed sides, using the same Uncle Red scenario shown above. So, the AI has a pair of tanks and the usual static infantry types the Germans historically used at the beachheads. The HP Americans get all green infantry, and their only hope is to somehow knock out the German tanks without getting creamed.

This game mode is for the Single Player, who doesn't mind being humilated by an AI, that is usually described by Multiplayers as totally lame. At least you won't have to suffer through the obligitory albeit politically correct apre battle chat, where your Multiplayer opponent will insist on analyzing ever second of the match.

Common sense tactics would normally include provisions to conceal an approach by your zooka teams, once the enemy tanks have been located. Laughing

Apart from that, you can try spreading teams out, so they cant be collectively pinned by the withering fire. Try to avoid the barbed wire and minefields as well. Keep MG teams back, so they can set up and provide some noise or protection for your doomed advance to the seawall.

#41: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:04 am
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Stwa's Precise CC Tactics - Advanced Rubber Banding Techniques

Learning how to effectively use the Rubber Band tool, is an essential task for all players. Here I will demonstrate how to use the tool to set up an ALL BALLS Rambo Tactic. Usually Rambo tactics are executed during a battle using several small teams or perhaps a single team.

Occassionally, it makes sense to employ greater force during a Rambo attempt, and Beach maps (like Uncle Red), are good candidates.

Use the tool to select every team in your force. Just drag the rectangle around everyone, until all units are highlighted in yellow. Once accomplished, you can right mouse select any team, and issue a MOVE FAST order to all units simulataneously. Direct this movement order about 50 meters beyond the seawall. You can simply ignore the barbed wire and the minefields. I can assure you that Multiplayers would never stoop to using such a crude (but effective) movement order.

To be honest, you can crawl, walk, run, sneak, deceptively or not, but everyone is probably gonna die on this beach one way or another. So we might as well make it look good (like in the movies).

Its funny, but the AI, seems to have a capable grasp of the situation when it comes to defending beaches, and calling in mortar and artillery strikes.

For more information on Rambo Tactics use the following link

The HP Rambo Tactic

#42: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:26 pm
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HP Defender - AI Zombie Attacker

Zombies have been an important part of the CC experience since TT took his CC4/CC5 Vetmods to a new level.

That's right, Vetmods are usually just Zombie mods.

Zombie mods, are mods that alter CC data to provide super human(oids) and vehicles. Most of the time, players let the AI use the Zombies. The usual pretense, is that the Human Player is much more clever than the lowly AI . [cough, cough].

Over the years, modders have discovered some amazing methods, for creating Zombies. Exagerated morale and experience are the usual baseline enhancements, but modders now days go way beyond those attributes.

To be fair, Vetmods usually always include Zombies, but sometimes they include other modifications, such as terrain elements, that would affect the Human Player as well, but somehow seem to benefit the Zombies.

This game mode is for the Single Player, who doesn't mind being humilated by a TOTAL FANTASY AI. For most people, it is a tough sell, because every AI soldier (and maybe the vehicles too), have their fighting capabilities goosed to the max.

Common sense tactics recalls to mind the old adage of fighting fire with fire, or in this case fighting Zombies with Zombies. Occasionally, sneaky Human Players will take the Zombies and really give it to the AI. Its my personal favorite mode of play.

#43: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:10 pm
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HP Attacker - AI Hopeless Defender

Before the advent of modern weapon systems, like automatic rifles and propelled explosives, it was generally held, when the weapon systems of the attackers and defenders were the same, the defenders held the advantage on the battlefield.

And so, if modern forces both possess automatic rifles, machine guns, propelled explosives, you can, in general, assume the defenders will have the advantage.

This is not so true with CC, since it is a squad or team level game, with few combatants on each side, so superior weapon systems become paramount in determining which side has the true advantage.

Nevertheless, the defenders, can remain concealed, while the attackers are forced to reveal their positions during their advance to the victory locations, and this provides a large advantage to the defenders.

This game mode is for the Single Player that likes attacking the AI with overwhelming force. The trick, is to use all 30 teams, and still be able to give the Attackers a surperior force, that might not take any casualties at all. Sometimes this means adding vechicles, off map artillery support, or fixed wing and helo close air support.

In addition to the forces, you can impose or constrain victory conditions. For instance, defeat for the attackers could be defined as simply having one vehicle destroyed, or having 10 or more casualties (KIA, IIA).

Common sense tells you that in this game mode, you cannot afford to make sloppy movements, especially if you impose restrictive victory conditions. Focus on shorter movements, where your infantry are not likely to be observed. Make sure any approaches to victory locations are sufficiently scouted. The last thing you want is to be ambushed, and have an entire team taken out.

Generally, just a few tanks will create the advantage necessary for the attackers to win a convincing victory. But, be sure the tanks are used to full effect, without exposing the infantry to undo risk.

#44: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: chessmaster, Location: Antwerp and Ghent

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:37 am
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STWA you're the Funniest member on the whole FORUM Smile

thanks for the thread, enjoyed it very much

#45: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:55 am
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chessmaster wrote (View Post):

STWA you're the Funniest member on the whole FORUM Smile

thanks for the thread, enjoyed it very much

Why thank you, I will take that as a compliment ... I think ... Laughing

#46: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:33 pm
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Stwa's Precise CC Tactics - Artillery Barrage Mechanics And Cost/Benefit Analysis

To give the HP a real advantage over AI defenders, why not give the HP a serious rolling artillery barrage. In the case presented here, the AI has its forces dug in on a rugged desert mountain.

Attacking the AI force with infantry and Humvees would be time consuming and costly in human lives.

When designing your mission, first determine the number of barrages you think you will need to do the job. In our example, I have decided that 20 barrages are necessary. Now, if your game system does not allow for multiple barrages, you are going to have to pretend.

In CCMT, each barrage will consist of 6 to 18 155mm rounds delivered in 1 to 3 groupings. So on average, we will just say 12 rounds.

Each round costs ARMY about 1,000 dollars. So, each barrage, on average should cost 12,000 dollars.

So, during the game, if I use all 20 barrages, the total cost to ARMY should be 240,000 dollars. About the cost of a cheap house in Pakistan.

Now, during the battle, determine the Victory Location you think will have the greatest amount of enemy soldiers deployed nearby.

Then, determine an imaginary line that runs from the base of the mountain to the top and through the Victory location to a point about 100 meters beyond.

Start the barrage at the base of the mountain, and walk the barrage along this imaginary line.

Be sure to use ALL the allotted barages. Distribute the barrages in a way so you cover the entire area.

Do not run out of barrages before you get to the VL.

If your rolling barrage is succesfull, you can use the same imaginary line to advance your infantry teams to the VL.

In the example barrage below, we wasted 8 OPFOR solders. So, about 30,000 dollars per raghead. Not bad for a days work, eh. Shocked

#47: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:22 pm
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Stwa,

1 of 3 Humvee should have Mk19 Wink

#48: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:33 am
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Stwa's Precise CC Tactics - Advanced Air Strike Techniques

Learning how to effectively use Air Strikes, is an essential task for all players. Here I will demonstrate how to use total Air Superiority against one of the most dreadful weapon sysetm in the game; - Heavy Tanks. Whether tanks are deployed in a town, city, or forest, is of little consequnce, since even in multiplayer the tanks must stop at some point, and then they can be destroyed.

When dealing with heavy tanks, it is important to realize that one or two strikes may not be sufficient. It is imperative, that you commit an entire squadron (16 birds minimum), to the battle. It may take several strikes to destroy a heavy tank, and sometimes a direct bomb hit may have no effect whatsoever. And, you never know when one or two tanks may in fact turn out to be several tank squads or even an entire platoon of tanks.

Tanks almost always employ the Rambo Tactic when trying to capture a Victory Location. But, after the Victory Location is captured, they tend to mill around in a gaggle. This is the time when they are most vulnerable.

Striking a tank gaggle conserves bombs for the entire squadron. Sometimes a bomb may wildly miss its target, but stirke and adjacent tank instead. Aftershock explosions from damaged or destroyed tanks, might cause a nearby tank to explode as well.

Don't panic during a tank attack. Entire tank squads or platoons, can easily be destroyed. Simply strike one tank after another until the job is complete. Then retake any Vicotry Locations using your infantry squads. Be careful, because the surviving crew members might still be hiding near their destroyed tank.

Use Air Superiority during multiplayer or singleplayer games. It is most effective during multiplayer games, where your opponent is sure to become totally demoralized.

I hardly see anyone use this tactic, which is strange, since many historians agree, that Air Power was the predominant force in WW2.

#49: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:24 am
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Stwa,

Quote:

I hardly see anyone use this tactic, which is strange, since many historians agree, that Air Power was the predominant force in WW2.

not in terms of dealing with tanks.
F.e. at Kursk the Lufwaffe accounted for 3-5% of all Soviet tanks lost, in Normandy USAF and RAF accounted for 8-10% of all German tanks lost.
The main problem was the lack of suitable armament for aircrafts during WW2.

#50: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:08 am
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Hi Dima,

Ya, I am sure you are right. Idea

I think I meant that somewhat in a general sense, and also because I am probably the only user to ever stage such "simulation". Wink

#51: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Ivan_Zaitzev,

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:14 pm
—

Dima wrote (View Post):

Stwa,

Quote:

I hardly see anyone use this tactic, which is strange, since many historians agree, that Air Power was the predominant force in WW2.

Well, most accounts say that for the Germans, traveling by day in Normandy was suicidal, so at least they helped in restricting their movements.

#52: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:50 pm
—
Ivan,

Quote:

Well, most accounts say that for the Germans, traveling by day in Normandy was suicidal, so at least they helped in restricting their movements.

that's a myth, there is not a single evidence of the German armored column beeing destroyed by air power in Normandy. Although many traveled several hundreds of kilometers from their assembly areas to Normandy. Don't forget that AVFs were very hard targets for the WW2 fighter-bombers and they were most always covered by mobile armored flaks.

The real problem air attacks caused were delays due to lack of fuel and ammo, as supply trucks were quite easy targets to air attacks.

#53: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:48 pm
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A Panzer unit on travelling in the day would be attacked, but it would not be a long line of tanks. It would also have trucks, halftracks and light vehicles vulnerable to mg fire as well.
An air strike which destroys a units ammunition or fuel supply would be devastating, so they travelled at night.

#54: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Dima,

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:57 pm
—

Quote:

A Panzer unit on travelling in the day would be attacked, but it would not be a long line of tanks. It would also have trucks, halftracks and light vehicles vulnerable to mg fire as well.
An air strike which destroys a units ammunition or fuel supply would be devastating, so they travelled at night.

yes, supply trucks travelled at night.
tanks and other combat vehicles travelled at day time no problem and even attacked.

#55: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 pm
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Stwa's Precise CC Tactics - Air Superiority

In any CC campaign, Air Superiority is vital. Achieving this goal should be the top priority for every player who wants to take his or her gameplay to the next level. Total Air Superiorty should be established as soon as possible in every campaign, and once attained, it confers a decided tactical advantage in every engagement thereafter.

The best way to accomplish Air Superiority on most CC platforms, is to simply destroy the enemy's aircraft while they are on the ground. As with any mission involving Air Strikes against ground targets, it is imperative, that you commit an entire squadron (16 birds minimum), to the battle. It may take several strikes to destroy an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, and sometimes a direct bomb hit may have no effect whatsoever. It is almost impossible to predict just how many enemy aircraft will still be on the ground at the target airport or airfield.

Air Superiority secures the unequivical advantage of morale for your forces, while totally demoralizng your opponent. This effect is usually more pronounced in Multiplayer campaigns.

#56: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:39 pm
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Laughing

#57: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:06 am
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So its official your joking. Cover blown. Hahaha

Imagine if in future Close Combats there was something like that?

I always thought that taking airfields in CC5 should have had some sort of Strategic affect.

#58: Re: NOOBS Need Not Apply Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:10 am
—
Hi,

I agree with you. Perhaps, if your airfield gets captured, then no more On-Call Air Support.

Same way with On-Call Artillery Support. For instance, in Bloody Omaha if Point-du-Hoc or Maisy is captured by the Allies, then no more Artillery Support for the Germans.

These were pretty easy to set up, and yes the ground aircraft are totally functional, except for the fact that they cant actually take off and fly. You can taxi down the runways, fire thier wepons, and they can have crew (like a pilot). Laughing

First make a copy of aircraft tex file (in tanks.azp) and your aircraft shadow spr file (in shadows.azp), and rename both to a new name that you can recognize as a "grounded" aircraft. I just added a "G" to the file name for my stuff.

Then use the CC shadow edit thingy to modify the hotpoints for the aircraft shadow and move it closer to the aircraft. Then repack the tank and shadow azp files.

Then add the new "vehicle" to the vehicle data file by cloning the original aircraft row and creating a new row at the end of the file. Be sure to indicate that it is a vehicle, not an airplane.

Then add an entry to the team database. (I used Red Teams, the one for OPFOR), and be sure it points to the new vehicle ID, you just created in the step above.

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Modern Tactics

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