Close Combat Series :: View topic - Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)

Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa)

through

Forum FAQ

[^/[Print]\]

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Panthers in the Fog

#1: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:23 pm
—
Hi Stwa!

Here you can see the size of the soldiers Near the CCMT vehicles.

USandSIzeSoldiers.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

239.67 KB

Viewed:

791 Time(s)

OPORandSizeSoldier.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

209.19 KB

Viewed:

726 Time(s)

#2: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:24 pm
—
So, what are you thinking. Question

When I look at those pics, I think the following:

The size of the soldiers and the tanks look the way they have always looked, even when in CCMT. Idea

The map scale also looks a whole lot like it does in CCMT. Idea

So, perhaps I am wrong, but I would venture, that some features on the PitF maps have not been purposely scaled up to the new visual scale. Only southern_land can answer that.

I would also maybe say, that some of the original PitF tanks are too beeg for some of the features on some of the PitF maps. I don't mean the tanks are too beeg, I mean the tanks and some of the map features ARE NOT the same scale. Question

So, all this makes me wonder, if there is a way to mod or change the pixel to meter scale of the game. Stalky tried to mention something, but I am not sure what he was driving at. This way when you mouse for a range, it would show the older value of 5 pixels = 1 meter, not the new scale of 8 pixels = 1 meter. Your best strategy here, is to just email McClaire.

BTW, the trees have certainly been upscaled, and they are in the terrain file. But I am starting to wonder about some of the other map features. I sure would like to see more screen shots.

Also, try using the small soldier mod. The 9.5 pixel one, and see if there is a CTD. If not, and it works, then voila! I say you are in for using the pre PitF scale, except for the ranges and trees as mentioned above.

I am quessing that there hasn't been any special attention paid to movement speeds. When using the beeg 4800 pixel maps, even on my system and CCMT, everything moves slower.

#3: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:25 am
—
Of course, if you want to play at the actual PitF scale and on the PitF maps, then you need to scale up the CCMT vehicles.

Here is my understanding of the past scales and new scales (which could be whacked), but Tejszd knows for sure.

CCMT scales

really small soldiers = 7.7 pixels
small soldiers = 9.5 pixels
solders = 12 pixels
vehicles = 8 pixels
maps = 5 pixels

PitF scales

soldiers = 12 pixels Question

vehicles = 10 pixels Question

maps = 8 pixels

#4: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:12 am
—
Its just that I keep bumping in to people at the Matrix forums that keep telling me all the scales were made the same for PitF.

Dunno, but that may not be the case.

But with CCMT, you probably should use the really small soldiers to get all the scales as close together as you can.

#5: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:56 am
—
And if all this scale stuff isn't mind boggling enough, consider the fact that I suppose the ranges of the weapons might not actually match the map scale either. Or even the movement speeds, etc..

I really don't know, but I will bet someone around here does. But some of the first reports over in the PitF forum complained that with larger visual scale and map sizes, you had to keep scrolling around to see the action.

Simply put, it's a drag when the shooters and targets aren't in your game window at the same time. This would happen in CCMT alot, when I was initially playing on the monster CCMT maps.

But at least in CCMTs case, its hideous visiblity data allows targets to approach (in some circumstances) very close before they become visible. (see attached pic)

It's ironical, that a game that is supposed to be noted for its accuracy and detail, may not ever had any two scales the same throughout the history of the series. [facepalm]

#6: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:38 am
—
It is interesting, probably just for me, but what if CCMT scales where all same, or at least map (and its features), vehicles and soldiers.

And oddly enough, I was able to throw a test together to see what it would look like. Since my cutdown maps are 600 meters scale, all I had to do was use Gimp to expand them from 3000 pixes to 4800 pixels.

And what I got is attached below. Provided all the details on the map were precisely to the map scale, now the map and tank scale is the same at 8 pixels per meter, and I used the small soliders which is very close to this scale.

#7: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:05 am
—
One more just for fun

#8: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: MF_Church,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:55 pm
—
Even IF... the scaleS aren't the same... I LIKE IT! (it being the manly SIZED tanks!)

The TANKS there seem Just RIGHT! too!

Tks again... Stwa Very Happy

#9: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:17 pm
—
Agreed Exclamation

This thread shouldn't be construed as complaining on my part. It is just that the abstracted scales, just haven't been anything I have ever concerned myself with too much.

In fact, I keep having to re-locate threads or posts from Tejszd to remember what the scales are. Laughing

So, I finally had to sit down and work it out myself. What I find, is that there are many things painted on to a map, that do not necessarily correspond with the stated map scale. Simply, they are not to scale. And it would seem, this can range from structures, windows, doors, roads, and even aircraft, etc..

But if the abstracted scale gets too out of whack, like when a tank is much larger than a road it is supposed to travel on, I could see how this might cause some visual issues, not to mention some map coding or pathing issues. Idea

And in the end, and back to DAK_Legions original pics, the current PitF scale, me thinks, is a way of correcting the imbalance between the overly large soldier scale and the smaller map and tank scales. Wink

One would assume that CC 3D would correct all this, but not necessarily. For instance, MS CFS III (Combat Flight Simulator), had the aircraft twice their normal (scale) size, so their apparent size would be larger and more fun.

Me thinks, it is not so quite a discovery, but it seems the phrase "map scale", has perhaps been abberated over time. Oh I am sure, modders and others in the know, understand. But for NOOBS, this "scale" is really not used in any large sense. Certainly not with features drawn on the map, which tend to be in most cases more closely aligned with the larger soldier and tank scales.

#10: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:34 pm
—
Hi!

Here some screenshots of the sizes of the soldiers....I think the soldiers running as usual.

for my taste the best option is 9´5pixels

9´5px.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

236.94 KB

Viewed:

620 Time(s)

7,6px.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

233.14 KB

Viewed:

576 Time(s)

5px.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

196.3 KB

Viewed:

623 Time(s)

#11: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:36 pm
—
Hi DAK_Legion,

I would agree with you that 9.5 is the best size.

Your only other option, would be to re-size the vehicles, and that would be a pain, and I would not suggest anyone do that at the moment.

So, you have proved that pre-PitF vechicles and soldier mods, can be imported into PitF.

So as it stands now, using the vehicles and soldiers and PitF maps your scales are as follows:

soldiers = 9.5
vehicles = 8
maps = 8

So long as painted PitF map features aren't grossly oversized, like to the larger soldier scale of 12, then this might look acceptable.

#12: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:38 pm
—
Regarding CCMT on PitF.

There would be only one compelling reason to move CCMT to any of the WW2 games, and that would be to make a campaign game.

There is no way anyone would be able to make an interesting campaign game, becuase anything made will probably be fiction. And part of what makes the WW2 CC games interesting to everyone, is they attempt to recreate a historical campaign. And you the player are trying to see if you can do better than your historical commander counterpart.

So, me thinks in the end CCMT to PitF is not really viable or a good idea. The same would be true for the other WW2 games (LSA, TLD, WAR), etc. And whenever, I play CCMT on maps that were intended for WW2 it leaves a funny feeling, don't know why.

I would like to especially thank southern_land for maps like these and all the others over time.

#13: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:47 pm
—
Have to agree that the scales are not written in stone. Maps were supposed to be 5 pixels per meter but just like vehicles and soldiers were made bigger for additional detail I'm sure on maps some individual items were made bigger to add detail. The scale does not have to be perfectly consistent but juts closer together.

For Meuse I use the 9.5 soldiers for that reason (a 4.5 pixel range/spread);
soldiers = 9.5
vehicles = 8
maps = 5

PiTF (4 pixel range/spread);
soldiers = 12 pixels
vehicles = 10 pixels
maps = 8 pixels

#14: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Manoi, Location: Brussels

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:07 pm
—
are you sure for the scale of soldiers and vehicles in pitf? I thought the vehicles were scaled at 8 pixels by meter and soldiers at 9.5. The soldiers from pitf are smaller than the cc5 version

#15: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:59 pm
—
If what you say, is true, then the 9.5 pixel soldiers in PitF look substantially better than the ones that come with the 9.5 soldier mod available pre-PitF.

If others agree, then I would say to someone like DAK_Legion.

Please make a soldier mod using PitF soldiers, so they may be imported back to games that originated prior to PitF.

If such a mod works, then we can see for ourselves. Idea

#16: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Manoi, Location: Brussels

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:15 am
—
from steve Mclaire on the matrix forum : The soldier sprites (10 pixels/meter) are unchanged in those screenshots and probably will not be re-done, though this is still under discussion. So the vehicles and terrain scale are now the same, while the soldiers are slightly overscale (but much closer than before).

#17: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:58 am
—
I have read McClaire state that the map scale for PitF is 8 pixels per meter.

So, if what you say is true, then the vehicle scale is the same. I have measured several of them from the screenshots, and the vehicles I have measured seem larger than that.

And as we have found out, the primary purpose of my commentary is to demonstrate, that no matter what a stated scale is, objects can be larger in practice. (i.e. their representation during the game)

And I will call attention to the first few screenshots in the thread. The first from DAK_Legion showing CCMT tanks and PitF soldiers, and my first showing CCMT tanks and CCMT soldiers, which look remarkably similar to me, and remind me very much of CC5 soldiers.

I welcome additional commentary.

#18: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:54 am
—
I think Steve is mistaken. He said the soldier scale is 10 pixels/meter but than states they are unchanged. I have heard the 10 pixels/meter before for CC5 and earlier games but the consensus was that is too low.

#19: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Manoi, Location: Brussels

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:34 am
—
you are right, after measuring them, I confirm that soldiers in Pitf have a scale of 12 pix/meter as before

#20: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:12 am
—
Well, I was really hoping that more NOOBS would join in the conversation.

Now, I am sure everone realizes that I am not being critical of the game. But as I mentioned on page 1, scale is something that I have never really even thought of, when I would play CC in the past.

So for once, it has my attention, and I was wondering if it possible that some vehicles in a game could be in one scale, while other tanks could be presented in a different scale altogether.

Surely, the game designer gurus, probably specified a single tank scale. Or did they. And if they did, who is that designer guru anyway. Not that it matters.

But, me thinks the best conclusion that one can make about CC now days, is that there just may not be any real scale at all. For instance the map or "range scale" might be different than the "structures" scale, which might be different than the explodable wooden crate scale, which might be different than the "Axis tanks" scale, which might be different than the "Allied tank" scale, which might be different than the "Allied halftrack scale", which might be different than the crater scale, which might be different than the tree scale.

Now the dead soldiers below do seem larger than the tank scale as well. But I would like more NOOBS (like Manoi) to confirm this. To me it seems, it would be a squeeze to get them through the hatch on one of the tanks in the pic below

#21: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:01 pm
—
Your are right about the scale probably being more a guide. Some things at scale would probably be too small to even tell what they were. Also with multiple people doing different graphics there are also could just be errors or people using different source information....

Even for quantities in forcepools in Meuse1940 I tried to use a standard but then sometime there was a only a couple of specific tank/vehicle so do you then not include it then because the quantity using the scale would be .3???

#22: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:05 am
—
Hi,

And yes, I believe your assessment is correct. Certainly in the the post CC5 era for these game titles. It really didn't take long to figure out either. Just a cursory glance during game play (or screenshots), proved at least to moi, that the notion of scale for any object class was largely absent, and certainly when you tried to classify objects by scale types such as map, vehicles, and soldiers.

So in conclusion, it is true to say that the map, vehicle, and soldier scales for PitF are all different, just as they have been different for the titles that have preceded PitF.

That being said, I am sure the PitF team was hopeful or perhaps confident, that the larger scales (or guide) for map features and vehicles, would make the game more detailed (and fun). And perhaps that has occurred. But each user will have to assess the abstracted scales for themselves, because there will be times (during any game) when the abstactions will seem imperfect.

#23: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:20 am
—
Does what you see looking down at a PitF map resemble the scale of things in the real world viewed from the same height?
Try this:
Since PitF maps are 8 pixels per meter ... you can figure out how many meters are represented across your computer screen by dividing the width of you computer screen by 8.
For example: 1600 screen pixels divided by 8 pixels equals 200 meters.
Now open google earth, and go to a place where it's pretty nice resolution ... like "Cagny Normandy"
Get the ruler from the tools menu, and use meters.
Then zoom in on some residential area until you can measure 200 meters across your entire screen (or whatever amount of meters you got for your screen).
Remember to tilt the google earth view to direct top down view by using the tilt arrow at the bottom of the nav ring, under the N for north symbol.
That's 200 meters of real life terrain across your screen ... does the scale of things (buildings, roads, vehicles) look similar to a PitF map?

Also, I realize a PitF map is not 1:1 ratio of map to real life meters, but the above method does give a way of comparing what you see on your screen.

#24: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:01 am
—
Hi,

Sounds interesting. Is it possible for you to do that, and post some screenshots in the thread?

Also, when I first started checking this stuff out, I just made the assumption that the PitF map features were to scale. (8 pixels/meter).

So then, I started checking out other stuff like the tanks. But I did try to measure one of the roads in the screenie above, and thought it to be 56 pixels or 7 meters or 23 feet.

But are the tanks to a scale larger than the map scale? (why not, its always been this way). That's what we have been asking here on page 2. And can there be one of those [visual] imperfections in the abstracted scales? For instance, when a tank moves down a road? Or a soldier and a turret hatch?

This kind of stuff never even entered my brainspace until PitF, and I don't even have the game. After all, I was still using the stock (large) soldiers up to a year ago.

#25: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:31 am
—
Hopefully, David will try to round up a few Google screenies. Idea

In the meantime, I just took a simple, every day CC5 screenshot. Its CC5 Auvres, one of my favorite maps for great battles.

I'll bet if anyone checks it out, and concentrates, they can see scale abstractions all over the place. Again, this is stuff I never even thought of before. But hey, check out the cow in the upper right hand side. Confused

These soldiers don't fit in the tank hatches either. And how about the tanks on the roads. What is up with that. And we just must assume that the beeg structure by the crossroad, is the community center. Wink

#26: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:27 am
—
here is a PitF 200 meter image capture across a 1600 pixel screen with a few 200 meter google earth buildings and stuff overlaid.
PitF roads and building are a bit oversize, as well as soldiers (but you do want to be able to see soldiers) ... all in all, it seems pretty close.

PItF 200 meters on1600x900 screen.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

480.47 KB

Viewed:

524 Time(s)

#27: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:33 pm
—
I always liked photorealistic maps;)

#28: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:52 pm
—
for comparison

google earth 200 m on 1600x900 screen reduced.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

419.6 KB

Viewed:

459 Time(s)

#29: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:23 am
—
Hi David,

Sorry, I was away for a little bit, it was my son's 18th birthday tonight. He was born (1/9/1995).

Thanks for fetching the Google screenshots. And I agree, things do look close. Me thinks, as an overall impression, the PitF maps are a lot nicer looking than the CC5 equivalents. Just the new textures, especially the rooftops, have more detail, and I think like you, that enlarging the visual scale was the goal, so that more detail could be shown in everything. I have a hard time "seeing" the 7.7 soldiers. Laughing

However, since we know that PitF scales are not the same, and by this I mean map, vehicles, soldiers, it goes without saying that users will just have to evaluate the abstractions as they see them and appreciate them. Just like Church mentioned on page 1. The foremost point I wanted to make in this thread, was that PitF scales are not the same, just like other versions of CC.

For instance, if you recall the road image above. I measured this as 56 pixels or 23 feet. Yet the Tiger tanks are 12 feet wide in real life. So in this example larger than the map scale, and their apparent size as viewed when on the road itself seem even larger still (maybe 18 feet wide).

I think your screenies help to prove other points that have been made. Despite our assumptions about the PitF scales, the scales were used as guides, as Tejszd mentioned, as it would seem that roads and perhaps structures (in practice) are closer to the soldier scale of 12 pixels per meter.

If true, then we must enter and make formal the Range Scale. So to express Pitf scales, they might be as follows:

Range scale = 8 pixels per meter
Vehicle scale = 10 pixels per meter
Map (features) scale = ~8 to 12 pixels per meter (structures by themselves are nearly impossible to evaluate)
Soldier scale = 12 pixels per meter.

And of course, I hope everyone realizes, that the Range Scale, could again be just an aproximation. Since to validate its accuracy, one would have to measure the ranges of the game's weapons. For instance, I remember players complaining about certain CCMT weapons that could fire acrross the 960 meter maps. (i.e. the range scale appeared to be not accurate)

#30: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: Stwa,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:41 am
—
And just to help anyone who hasn't fallen asleep with this discussion, I have taken David's first screenie and rotated it so it was easier to measure lengths and width's of the objects, like the road and the tank, which I assume is a Panther V.

The precision of the measurements can be off somewhat as it is always difficult to measure such small objects and to get their width and lengths in pixels acurate.

But here is one set of meaurements

Tank width = 36 pixels / 3.27 meters (actual width of Panther V) = 11.00 pixels per meter

Tank length = 70 pixels / 6.87 meters (actual length of Panther V) = 10.18 pixels per meter

Road width = 58 pixels / 7 meters (theoretical width of road) = 8.28 pixels per meter

Road width = 58 pixels / 5.8 meters (theoretical width of road) = 10.00 pixels per meter

Road width = 58 pixels / 4.83 meters (theoretical width of road) = 12.00 pixels per meter

So, if the road is in fact 5.8 meters wide (19 feet), or 9.5 feet for each lane, then at least the road scale (perhaps the map feature scale) can closely aproximate the Axis tank scale.

#31: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: davidssfx,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:12 pm
—

Stwa wrote (View Post):

So, if the road is in fact 5.8 meters wide (19 feet), or 9.5 feet for each lane, then at least the road scale (perhaps the map feature scale) can closely aproximate the Axis tank scale.

Hi,
Firstly, congrats on your son's birthday :)

Second, I'll just comment on the Panther / Road scale comparison since I'm busy right now.
If the road size is 19 feet across and a Panther is slightly over 11 feet in width ... then you would expect a Panther to surpass the halfway point by about 1.5 feet. In the image, it looks to be about a tread width (2 feet) more than half way ... so I'd figure the width comparison is less than 1 foot difference between real life and PitF.
Therefore, visually PitF seems to simulate the road width to Panther width ratio quite well.

PantherRoadCompare.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

51.83 KB

Viewed:

426 Time(s)

#32: Re: Size SoldiervsTanks(Stwa) Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:15 pm
—
Goods explains david and stwa;)

thanks!

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Panthers in the Fog

output generated using printer-friendly topic mod. All times are GMT

Page 1 of 1