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Kursk 1943

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#1: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:33 am
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Hello,

A while aggo I replied in a thread about close combat in 3D here I was catched about the idea of a 3D version of closecombat.
Anyway I started experimenting with some graphics. Some elements are usable in 3D but the image shown is perfect for a 2D version, perhaps a new eastern front conversion of close combat panthers in the fog which I'd love to see in the future.

Regards,
Mana

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#2: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:46 pm
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Wow!

impressive!i would like to play kursk on pitf!
would be great!
plase more pic,more details about this mod Maná!

thanks

#3: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:53 pm
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Thanks legion!

I hope there are other people that find the subject of modding Pitf interesting, because I cannot do it on my own at least that would cost me a full year :)

Anyway here's a render of the tiger tank which I created, it is a fair low poly tiger and not fully textured yet. Curently I'm working on a test strat map and a new vehicle.

More coming soon!

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#4: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:44 pm
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Here's another render based uppon the Tiger Ausf. E from 2nd SS 'Das Reich', the 3D model gives allot of mobility in texturing and other conversions thus creating a realistic vehicle in close combat.

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#5: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:09 pm
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looks great, well done. However at the scale of PitF you would lose a lot of the great resolution we see in these images. Would still look outstanding in-game.

#6: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:49 am
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Looks and sounds good!

#7: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:41 am
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intresting!

#8: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: southern_land,

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:15 am
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looks very cool. Would you have the variety of maps to make a kursk mod interesting?

#9: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:56 pm
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Thanks for the replies!

Although I have been struggling to create a full conversion for close combat in the past now I'm able to visually express a concept.

But I remember how great mods like GJS where created (community dependent) A team was formed full of enthousiastic close combat players, this team consisted out of researchers, map makers, data editors and sound editors (sometimes multiple functions where assigned to one person)

My point is that I'm trying to form a group of enthousiasts, because I cannot create a full conversion on my own. I beleive that a great mod can only be created through a group of players together with the community.

I guess that an eastern front mod has not been the biggest topic so far. And Kursk 1943 would be interesting because of the variaty of battles that can take place; Battles for cities like Oryol, Belgorod, Kharkov and rural battles (It's also the first operation where the Russians succeeded to repel a German blitzkrieg operation!)

Anyway I could be wrong thats why I need a group that consists out of;

- Researchers
- Data editors
- Map makers
- Sound editors

For now I'll keep posting content, mainly vehicles.

Kind regards,
mana

#10: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: southern_land,

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:36 pm
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What are you looking to recreate? The whole kursk battle, one salient? or just a small portion?

#11: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:54 pm
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Salient south for my is the best option!

volunteer for help if you want;)

#12: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:48 pm
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Any salient is too large for CC.
My advise is to go for some limited actions (left or right shoulder of the South Salient) with limited area and limited forces for both sizes.

Tip:
use Zetterling's Kursk for the info on German side and this one for the RA side (http://www.amazon.fr/Demolishing-Myth-Prokhorovka-Operational-Narrative/dp/1906033897/ref=sr_1_19?s=english-books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317038916&sr=1-19).

#13: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: pvt_Grunt, Location: Melbourne, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:37 am
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Dima wrote (View Post):

Any salient is too large for CC.
My advise is to go for some limited actions (left or right shoulder of the South Salient) with limited area and limited forces for both sizes.

Perhaps you could use the entire area for the strat map, use divisions as BG's and have the battle map represent a small portion of that divisional battle.
The maps would not be continous, but an abstraction of the scale. What do you think?

According to this map, the Germans had 33 divisions in the attack. I believe PitF can use up to 36 BG's
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_53RSwgpGzWw/S62ZcBoK2ZI/AAAAAAAAAcY/AsYD_Fsncus/s1600/mapKurst.jpg

The Russian side has many more units, so historical accuracy cannot be used or the game would be too one sided.

#14: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:00 am
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Quote:

IMO CC is not a strategical wargame and it's beauty is ability to represent small unit actions with great details, so I'd stick to battalion size BGs, maybe regiment at maximum for the RA.
So taking f.e. 2.SS-PzK actions with 3 divisions would allow to have each battalion represented for both sides or 48.PzK - 5 divisions or AK "Kempf" - 6 divisions. Each of them had very intensed, interesting and different actions during the Kursk offensive.

#15: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:03 am
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Good idea Dima;)

a style cc3!

#16: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: southern_land,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:41 am
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Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

I'd agree with that or maybe even aim lower with Div vs Corps if somewhere could be found where one German Div faced a RA Corps

#17: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:55 am
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southern_land wrote (View Post):

Dima wrote (View Post):

Quote:

I'd agree with that or maybe even aim lower with Div vs Corps if somewhere could be found where one German Div faced a RA Corps

Well, f.e. basically there were 12 combat battalions in SS-PzD so 2.SS-PzK can be precisely represented by 36 battalion-sized BGs and it was against elements of 6th GA and 1st TA. The RA army was basically same or smaller size as the German Korps.

#18: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:29 pm
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You remember this??

A old idea For CC5

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#19: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Dima,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:35 pm
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DAK_Legion wrote (View Post):

You remember this??

A old idea For CC5

well, of course many will like that as well Smile

#20: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:54 am
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Mana, your work with the 3D graphics is amazing I think that's actually how they did the models for CC since cc4 (or 3??) to capture the 'tilt'.

I always thought CC had a lack of small graphics mods regarding vehicles, maybe the way the files are set up has something to do with it but other games need to unpack and repack their graphics files too and they do have single unit mods. Although its true that you can take by yourself different vehicles graphics from different mods and incorporate them into your own personal modified CC but you have to download full mods for that.

As with the Kursk mod I hope we can play it someday as it is a very famous, big, important and underrepresented battle in CC.

I wish you to succeed with this and I hope we can see more vehicles!

Cheers.

#21: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:16 pm
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You are right about the scale where the action takes place, in my opinion the whole Kursk bulge would indeed be too large for close combat, I agree with Dima to stick with a certain area. My choice for the area Belgorod/Prokhorovka is obvious, historically this is the most interesting area and probably the most known for people. Action will take place between the beginning of July and will end at the beginning of August.

I would appreciate if someone could research and provide information about the mentioned area and date (detailed information about units, vehicles and environment)
As I mentioned before in order to create this project I will need the talents of others such as Data editing, research and other. This would give me allot of support for a solid base which is not only created from my point of view.

Correct me if you think otherwise! Smile

Last edited by Mana on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:49 am; edited 2 times in total

Stratmap.jpeg

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This is not the actual strat map! this is a test of how the actual terrain depth renders

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#22: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: southern_land,

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:13 am
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yeah okay i'm tentatively interested in doing some maps...

Just been google earthing north of belgorod, there is enough cover there to make things interesting I think

#23: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:55 am
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About the strat map posted:

This is based on actual terrain height data, the cities and villages are not all shown but the major ones are. Belgorod is the main city and an importnant strategical point as is Porkhorovka, my initial idea is that the player has to achieve one of these goals; Belgorod for the russians as key city to Kharkov and Prokhorovka for the Germans to succeed their operational plans of 'Citadel'
(The actual stratmap will go slightly beyond Belgorod and Prokhorovka)

PS: Thank you for all the feedback and responses!

#24: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:09 pm
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you have a PM Mana!

#25: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Hesus,

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:20 pm
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Looks great, would love to play an eastern front mod on PITF.

#26: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Pzt_Kami, Location: IRAN

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:26 pm
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This has really become a dream to see a Kursk mod for CC. Now you guys gonna make it. this is indeed a great news Very Happy

and PitF can be a good choice as base game for this project. wish you good luck

#27: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: sickf1,

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:51 pm
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great news to see interest in this, i have not really been active for sometime but have been enjoying Pitf H2H games

#28: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:15 am
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also would lilke to see....ill keep looking at this...

#29: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:51 pm
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perhaps serve to help.......

Old CC5_Kursk FORUM.

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=55

#30: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:37 pm
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He guys,

Here's a small update (which I'm planning to do every week) So far Dak_legion is working on the data for an alpha version, with this version I'm planning to create two brand new maps; Belgorod east (station) and a part of prokhorovka. Belgorod east is currently being made (see images for preview)
The past few days I obtained new sounds which contain actual weapon recordings from a distant perspective creating a more realistic and balanced perspective ingame.

Although I probably need help from someone who speaks and understands Russian, both with the voices, data and research.

Kind regards,
mana

Last edited by Mana on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:50 am; edited 2 times in total

#31: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:19 pm
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I need your e-mail Maná!

here or vía pm!

#32: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:52 pm
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Hi guys here's a small update: some fuel for the imagination Smile

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Conversion teaser logo

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#33: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Fiestita, Location: Santa Fe

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:40 am
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Apparently you missed the Donets River in the strategy map. Belgorod has shores in it.

#34: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:47 am
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Your right, this strategic map is not the actual map it is just a test and is nothing compared to the actual strat map

#35: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Fiestita, Location: Santa Fe

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:03 pm
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I should have though about it as a test. My bad. Keep up the good work you are doing Mana.

#36: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:34 pm
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Here's a preview of the legendary T34/76 1942. The soldier in the square is placed there for the scale. The background image is the Belgorod railyard map I'm working on, but for the alpha version I'm working on Hill 252.2

Hope you like it!

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#37: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:03 pm
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Excelllent work;)

#38: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Dima,

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:05 pm
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Hill 2522 looks very similar to cut Stal map Smile

#39: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:05 am
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Thanks!

What do you guys think of the scale?

I have done my math and came to the conclusion that the regular Pitf scaled vehicles are too small to actually fit a soldier inside. I developed these houses and vehicles so a close combat soldier would actually fit realistically. But maybe I missed something?

#40: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:03 pm
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previously talked about size soldiers versus tanks....

http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9877

hope will be helpful Wink

#41: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:18 pm
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Thank you legion, I came across that thread but never read it in detail. Someone also notified me on this subject on the matrix games forums where I posted several questions related to the map making tool for Pitf.

After reading your thread about the size of the soldiers I started calculating the pitf scales and the ones I created.
Probably for some esthetic reason the developers have chosen to have multiple scales this means one or another object is always unbalanced.
Scale is ofcourse relative, for example it can be dynamic (a road is never one size neither is a tree) So I don't blame them for making a clear decission.

When it comes to designing a map or any other graphic elements I like things that make a logic sense, for example when one meter is represented ingame it should be a rule for all elements. I have put this to practice in an example (see attachment)

For the elements I took the 12 pixels per meter from the standard soldier, no other scales. This means that a 4800 x 4800 pixels map will represent 400 x 400 meters, this size is where most common close combat took place (25 to 200 meters) and tank combat 200 to 1000 meters (most long distant tank combat could never be represented ingame but luckily it rarely took place)
Back to the elements which I calculated from meters to pixels. Ofourse some elements are dynamic which I gave the plus minus sign as some trees might be bigger than the other. The 12 pixels a meter scale makes tanks 20% larger and soldiers now actually fit inside a tank realistically.

There are drawbacks to both the Pitf scales and the presented scale, I beleive the choice remains esthetically but I could be wrong so that's why I'm curious what other players think.

Hill2522.jpeg

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New scale

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Tiger_kursk.jpg

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Size comparison

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#42: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:36 am
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the scale is perfect!

love that tiger pic

#43: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:22 pm
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Mana;)

You have an IMPORTANT PM!

#44: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Stwa,

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:49 pm
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Hi Mana,

I like your idea of trying to make everything the same scale.

One thing I just recently started to think about was movement on the larger maps. In the case you mentioned, 400 meters sounds good to me for mainly infantry fights with tanks in close support to them.

However, when the larger soldiers move on the larger maps (4800 pixels), on my system, they seem to move noticably slower than smaller soldiers, etc. So, if you do your idea (which I like) of 400 meter map at 4800 pixels, I am hoping the speeds of soldiers and vehicles can be adjusted accordingly.

Plus, I am not sure how the range indicator in any current game is modified so it can show the 12 pixels per meter scale.

And finally as the visual scale is increased the detail looks outstanding (i.e. your tanks above) but at such a scale there will be plenty of situations where you cannot view shooters and targets at the same time. (i.e. the target is futher away than your monitors number of pixels)

#45: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:42 am
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Hi stwa,

Good that you mention those things as they affect gameplay tremendously. I'm not holding on to one decission yet because I keep scaling things untill they seem to be more balanced; that means the map graphics compared to soldiers and vehicles. After that has been done I'll release an alpha version for test players (your welcome to help out)

The changes to the scales are not that much larger (about 5%) so do not worry about not able to see firefights. I've done some test myself and hardly see any difference from the old. The maps can be at maximum 7800 x 7800 I've read, so thats about 650 x 650 meters.

But still I'm not drawing any conclusions untill some players have done some tests themselves.

PS: The update for the current week has been posponed to next week and is a little bit of a surprise Smile

#46: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: papa_whisky,

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:14 am
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The game has an intrinsic scale that is associated with the engine i.e. how distance is measured on the maps that is directly related to the data of weapons, speed etc. The graphic scales are largely cosmetic although do play a role when graphics relate to movement properties. If you want to be totally consistent your starting point should be the engines intrinsic scale and altering the graphical scale to that but noting that pathing may become an issue if you are not careful with map design.

#47: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:47 pm
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Hi guys,

Since there are some issues with the forums I moved to the matrix games forums.

Last edited by Mana on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total

#48: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:12 am
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Hi guys, here's another try to get the new update on these forums

Hill2522_01.jpg

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Hill 252.2 map

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Hill2522_02.jpg

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Hill 252.2 close up

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new main screen

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new battlescreen

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#49: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: MG422,

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:46 pm
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Looks Great. Takes modders to take close combat back to Eastern Europe.

#50: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:02 pm
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You've done some very impressive work so far.

#51: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:04 pm
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Hi Guys,

Currently I'm working on the new close combat (Epsom) together with Cathartes.

That means the Kursk mod is currently idle. But that doesn't mean the Kursk mod is not going to be. Since we are reinventing quite allot of features in the upcoming game I'll probably base the mod on this new version.

Kind regards,
Conrad (mana)

#52: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: DAK_Legion,

Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:47 pm
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A new close combat?

please more details mens for this community!!

#53: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Mana,

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:38 am
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Ofcourse.. The past few days Matrixgames has announced some of their upcoming projects at Historicon. Both Cathartes and I are probably developing the last traditional close combat version to be released (based on operation Epsom) Currently we're working at least every day on this project and we are very fortunate to be supported by Matrixgames.

Compared to the past releases we're doing our best to get the highest quality close combat version so far.

My approach out here is to be as transparent as possible but I have my obligations.

#54: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Dima,

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:07 pm
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Good luck, guys!

#55: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: squadleader_id, Location: Soerabaja

Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:44 am
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Great news to see you and Cathartes on board for the new (and last) 2D CC release, Mana!
I hope you continue with Kursk 1943 soon after your work with the Matrix game is complete!

Good luck!

#56: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Von Manstein, Location: Santander (Spain)

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:00 pm
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Fantastic! Only if the new game recover the old H2H system vía IP for multiplayer.

PitF, at the end, is a failed game. The MP conecction works very bad...No one playd the game in MP.

#57: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: dj,

Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:15 pm
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So is this mod still on the back-burner for PitF...pending but not dead?

PitF is on sale for $20 USD. Just wondering if it's worth it. No mods yet are available. Multi-Player does not seem to work properly...which means single player against the dreaded AI. Not sure if AI gameplay is any good with PitF either.

#58: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Schmal_Turm,

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:21 am
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What is the status of this mod?

I was really looking forward to this one.

#59: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: Pete, Location: Nijmegen, Netherlands

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:46 am
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My guess is that it is dead. Conrad ("mana" in this thread) is a professional graphics artist and has to make a living too and has been working on the TBF. But who am I to speak for him? Better to contact him directly.

#60: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: dj,

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:19 am
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Wow brought back from the dead. I liked the scale of maps it looks more like scale in CC2 or CC3, more realistic looking. But I don't like the larger map, takes forever to move and especially against AI. If map size can be made smaller with same scale, it would be perfect imo.

Not much for East Front out there for LSA/TLD/PoF/CtG...hope this mod can get back to life.

#61: Re: Kursk 1943 Author: ke_mechial,

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:52 pm
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dj wrote (View Post):

Wow brought back from the dead. I liked the scale of maps it looks more like scale in CC2 or CC3, more realistic looking. But I don't like the larger map, takes forever to move and especially against AI. If map size can be made smaller with same scale, it would be perfect imo.

Not much for East Front out there for LSA/TLD/PoF/CtG...hope this mod can get back to life.

I hope, too.

Close Combat Series -> Close Combat Panthers in the Fog

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