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#1: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:27 pm
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GC, H2H final test has begun
15 min timer
force morale OFF
no current house rules

Cathartes (Allies) vs Monty (Germans)
night turn, June 6

Taken half of Merville attacking from the crossroads, with moderate losses.
Pegasus bridge is mine and I should be able to mop up on the next turn.

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#2: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:31 pm
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end of the night turn, total losses:

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#3: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:33 pm
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and the invasion is on:

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#4: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: platoon_michael, Location: Right behind you

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:11 pm
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Sweet

#5: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:40 am
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Looking good!

#6: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:11 am
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let there be little bleeding men all over the place!

Tigercub

#7: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:32 pm
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Gold Beach assault BG. Note that the composition of this BG, and others, will change dramatically in the coming day or two.

(note to self, fix the chat button color)

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#8: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:54 am
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Looking good, can't wait till I can play too...

#9: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Pzt_Wruff, Location: Pzt Befehl Hauptsitz

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:36 pm
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Right on!

#10: Disaster at Juno Beach Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:42 pm
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For this assault, mustered lots of full infantry teams and 4 tanks--expending all my BG points. The poor Canadians got plastered. This was a battle where luck was with the Germans and I helped then out by not being mindful of mines. The enemy stayed well hidden, and one MG and a sniper in the chateau did a lot of damage before I finally silenced them. An AT gun at the north end of the map took out one tank, and it took a concentrated barrage of naval arty and tank fire to take out the position. A hidden AT team (the only one available in this static German BG), hidden in the gun pit got two tanks, including an AVRE. This is unusual, and shows that small teams, sitting tight in ambush have the greatest possibility of success. Unlike full infantry teams, these teams do not exhibit the tank assault behavior that is my current major gripe with LSA engine.

It doesn't take much to pin down infantry and make them seek cover. Few heroes here, and the tanks have to lead the way clearing out strongpoints, as there is not always time to wait for infantry in these 15 minute battles.

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#11: Re: Disaster at Juno Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:50 pm
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After taking out Monty's one AT gun (knew this static German BG only had one), I had a tank move fast to take the Tailleville exit. This would at least give my BG the opportunity to move off the beach in the afternoon. The tank started to divert around the hedge as the AI pathfinding knew there were mines, Yet I purposefully rerouted tank waypoints along the road and paid the price. Lesson to self: be vigilant about mines in GJS-LSA--especially on the beach maps! There are some surprises.

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#12: Re: Disaster at Juno Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:54 pm
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I was able to strike a truce with Monty for the remaining couple of minutes. The Germans are hurt here, have not AT guns, and only a handful of units remaining. The Juno beach map should easily fall in the afternoon turn, but for now, I walk away with a severely bloodied nose.

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#13: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: mooxe,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:10 pm
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Can engineers remove mines in the rereleases?

I have only had it happen once or twice in CC5, and the was only one mine disabled if I remember correctly..

#14: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:21 pm
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Can engineers remove mines in the rereleases?

I have only had it happen once or twice in CC5, and the was only one mine disabled if I remember correctly..

Haven't really tested it, since have always relied on Crabs.

#15: Courselles-sur-Mer Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:24 pm
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The 8th Brigade/3rd Cdn Infantry Div fares much better on Courselles-sur-Mer, two AT guns defeated (including one hidden in a building) and no Allied tank losses:

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#16: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: mooxe,

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:42 pm
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Do the crabs do the job? I dont think I ever used noticed if they worked or not.

#17: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:29 am
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mooxe wrote (View Post):

Do the crabs do the job? I dont think I ever used noticed if they worked or not.

They do, but their path is narrow. They explode mines and no harm comes to them. Overall it's good to follow closely behind these tanks--if you are another tank. There is more to know about mines in LSA--they are handled a little differently in the code.

#18: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:31 pm
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Thanks for the test AAR.
Keep it coming. As much as i like CC5, so many mistakes were made.

Bugs like BGs not losing there guns and disarming mines being basically noneffective and pointless..

It would be good to try the Re Release. I allso want to try the Close Combat: Panthers in the Fog, but the graphics don't seem to have as much atmosphere.
And the battle scenario looks uninspiring. They should choose another theater of war.

#19: wrap up of am June 6 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:27 pm
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the last battle of the morning turn takes place at Arromanches/le Hamel. This is another bloody encounter, but I make fair progress. Mortars extract a toll, but not accurate enough to be too concerned about.

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#20: Re: wrap up of am June 6 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:37 pm
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picture says enough

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#21: Re: wrap up of am June 6 Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:29 pm
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Below is the result of the morning's fighting up and down Gold, Juno, Sword and along the Orne Bridgehead. I have taken three full maps and I will likely take all the others by the afternoon turn. However, the Germans can now freely move their regular BGs, and more strong BGs begin appearing. I know that KG Meyer shows up in the Gold Beach area, and this strong BG could cause trouble if my opponent wants to play aggressive.

I drafted my older step son into this test campaign, you can go to the Matrix/LSA/AAR forum and check out the German perspective. I told him I would not look. His Matrix name is "Monty Returns" (funny for a German player). To make things interesting and motivational for him, I've offered him $100 if he can take back any beach map, but he also has to keep an AAR going until then.

Considering the short battle length (15 minutes) I've done ok. I've been more careless than I would otherwise have been with a seasoned opponent, and I've held back in a few instances. If the battle length was 20 minutes I would have certainly secured more exit VLs leading beyond the beaches, and I probably would have taken a couple more maps. In GJS for LSA I believe 15-20 minutes is a good battle length with FM off.

If force morale was "ON" I may have achieved more on some maps, but I think I would have lost Gold Beach entirely due to force morale collapse (unlucky loss of 4 tanks). Yet, I would have played things differntly.

As far as bugs, so far, so good. I've caught a few oversights and mistakes in the modding process, all no big deal. Fingers are crossed.

Our goal is to get to the June 9 turn. This should get us far enough to catch any glaring bugs, and make sure the GC is set up properly. If there are no major bugs by the June 9 turn, I will pack this up and release GJS for LSA.

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#22: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Pzt_Kanov, Location: México

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:47 pm
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Wish you good luck Cathartes.

Have Fun!

#23: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:49 pm
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Appreciate the AAR and the over all mod plan/update!

#24: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:53 pm
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Cool you are playing your step son.
Do you have a link for his AAR report?

#25: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:35 am
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Cathartes

what numbers of tanks /AFV do u have on both sides around the same as the old GJS...

thx for the AAR by the way!

Tigercub

#26: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:21 am
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Antony_nz

thats the link for the AAR

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3253894

#27: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:13 pm
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tigercub wrote (View Post):

Cathartes

what numbers of tanks /AFV do u have on both sides around the same as the old GJS...

thx for the AAR by the way!

Tigercub

AFVs ratios are roughly the same as previously, but there are more overall. This will allow a protracted defense by the Germans (who are outnumbered by Allied BGs) It will not be as easy to use as many tanks as in 4.4 due to the way that LSA functions. Massing tanks will depend on stacking battlegroups and having plenty of BG points.

Below is the planned afternoon breakout from Courselles:

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#28: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: diggin.robat, Location: Land of the krauts

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:29 pm
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Very interesting AAR, Cathartes! Thanks for this insight.

BTW: Out of my experience with TLD (w/ Grnd Tactic 2.0), HtH with Ronson, some time ago, I thought about editing the Panzerfaust to crewed weapon, so that it won´t get so easily lost by a german unit under fire. In the entire GC in HtH, my germans only took out 2 tanks with very few near misses, as the Panzerfaust soldier seems to get lost quite quickly under fire, reducing AT capability of a unit to nearly zero. In the end Ronson wasn´t much ennoyed by them in street fighting, buggying around with his Shermies all the time... ;)

I never managed to test it myself, but with the quite small number of Panzerfaust in TLD-GT2.0 it seemed to me to be fair to increase the usage of it a bit more by making it crewed.
What do you think about that?

Anyway, looking forward to your mod!

diggin

#29: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:54 pm
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diggin.robat wrote (View Post):

BTW: Out of my experience with TLD (w/ Grnd Tactic 2.0), HtH with Ronson, some time ago, I thought about editing the Panzerfaust to crewed weapon, so that it won´t get so easily lost by a german unit under fire. In the entire GC in HtH, my germans only took out 2 tanks with very few near misses, as the Panzerfaust soldier seems to get lost quite quickly under fire, reducing AT capability of a unit to nearly zero. In the end Ronson wasn´t much ennoyed by them in street fighting, buggying around with his Shermies all the time... ;)

I never managed to test it myself, but with the quite small number of Panzerfaust in TLD-GT2.0 it seemed to me to be fair to increase the usage of it a bit more by making it crewed.
What do you think about that?

diggin

Interesting idea to crew the panzerfaust, but then I wonder if the soldier will be as effective vs infantry? At any rate, soldiers under fire, it seems, should lose weapons, get suppressed, and have a much harder time firing--especially against a tank. That being said, it's quite easy to hide in buildings in GJS-LSA, and it's more difficult to accurately target infantry in buildings. I just had an Ost commander take out a valuable command DD Sherman with a Granatbüchse39 (only way possible I figured). Range was nearly point blank. I suppose that this weapon, firing down from a second story bldg onto the thinner top armor did the trick. The Zug commander must have picked it up from a dead comrade in the building. Monty told me he got the medal and the kill credit, and the Zugfuhrer Ost commander and his team were under fire in a building at the time. So, my long point is--I can see that kills will be possible with hand-held AT weapons, even for teams under fire.

It's important to note that GJS-LSA is a different animal than tLD. You can drive a tank around and take ground, but it's a little harder to take VLs the way most BTDs are set up (beach maps excepted). Even if a tank can take a VL, it often will not be able to sit on top of it. An enemy infantry team might be able to sneak in and contest the VL.

Tanks just can't dominate as much as they used to. They remain formidable, but they are more prone to immobilization when driving through small hedgerows, among trees, and over stone fences, and if they try to push through tall walls--there's a high chance of throwing a track. They can't pass through big hedgerows at all. Armor will be sticking more to roads and open ground than in the past. GJS has its own custom elements, refined from LSA.

I don't think that the German player will be wanting of hand-held AT weapons. He will have enough to force the Allied player to be cautious with tanks, and to not move them ahead without infantry.

#30: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: diggin.robat, Location: Land of the krauts

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:39 pm
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Thanks for this comprehensive answer, Carthates!
I understand, that GJS-LSA will be a much different beast and thanks to your work it seems to be more outweighted. Crewing the Panzerfaust would be just another option for finetuning then.
In TLD-GT2.0, the german teams mostly had only one Panzerfaust, and it´s loss was quite a serious thing, when no other AT-Weapons were left.
Crewing them should have worked like LMG in teams. It was passed to next team member, if the original gunner died. Effectiveness against either INF or VEC is still controlled in another (don´t know exactly which) coloumn in the weapons.txt. But, as I said, I never tried it, but from my modding memories, it should work.

#31: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:18 am
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Quote:

In TLD-GT2.0, the german teams mostly had only one Panzerfaust, and it´s loss was quite a serious thing, when no other AT-Weapons were left.

There are a few extra here and there:

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#32: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: diggin.robat, Location: Land of the krauts

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:26 am
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Hmm, that looks good! hehehe

#33: Port en Bessin Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:19 pm
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231 Bde moves to Port-en-Bessin, hoping to find the back door into Bayeux:

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#34: Re: Port en Bessin Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:33 pm
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Lost one command tank to enemy infantry action in town--this was quite a surprise during the battle. Despite the presence of two 88s, was able to just drive to the Bayeux exit VL. I am now free to move into Bayeux the next morning, a critical objective for the Allies. I may be temporarily out of supply until mop-up by a follow up BG in Port en Bessin. Fortunately, a 7th Armoured Div BG is available on June 7.

I think the only way the Germans can prevent the Allies from taking Bayeux is to move KG Meyer into the city, but this has to be weighed against ceding other maps beyond Gold.

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#35: Gold Beach, June 6 pm turn Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:51 pm
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Forgot to get a screen of the strat, but Monty moved KG Meyer into attack Gold Beach. He is highly motivated to take back any beach map. This provides a good demonstration of what is and isn't possible. At this point it's a longshot for the Germans to drive the Allies off of any beach. Despite the fact that there are enough Stugs present in this BG, he can't muster more than 2-3 at a time (need points!). The Allies now have plenty of AT guns. I can play an effective defense against a potent German BG while my other BGs open up maps and routes inland.

This battle went to truce after a minute. One 17pdr took out two Stugs with two rounds.

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#36: Re: Gold Beach, June 6 pm turn Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:53 pm
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battle result:

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#37: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:00 am
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Intermission:

Battlegroups/Forcepools
This is not GJS a la CC5. The LSA engine offers more interesting options when representing forcepools and battlegroups. Changes are profound. Static BGs offer a new and interesting way to represent elements of the 716. “Bodenständigen” Infanterie Division, and other scattered units. Static BGs are numerous and 1-2 maps deep along the coast, but they are weak. Germans will be hard-pressed to significantly delay the Allied onslaught, yet the Allied player will have to work for every map along the Normandy coastline. Game settings (force morale on or off) and skill will determine how successful the German player is at delaying his opponent. Full-strength German battlegroups on the map at the beginning of the campaign will be frozen for a turn simulating the surprise and confusion that plagued the German command from the earliest hours of June 6.

Both Allied and German players receive reinforcements somewhat parallel to historical availability. Most reinforcements are pre-determined by the forcepool and entrance of battlegroups. Player-determined reinforcement is very limited and exists only for a handful of Allied battlegroups—notably the independent armoured brigades. All battlegroups have a larger number of units in them then the original release of GJS. The 6th Airborne Division battlegroups begin the campaign weak on the first night turn, but quickly gain strength in the following turns—regardless of their supply situation. Beach assault groups also quickly gain strength in the turns immediately following the morning of June 6. A few German battlegroups start out the early phase of the campaign weaker due to the rushed march to the front and the delayed arrival of support units.

Nearly every BG has some dimension of combined arms and an innate ability to properly defend or reasonably attack any map. The exceptions to this are the one-dimensional vehicle/tank heavy BGs of the Allied independent armoured brigades and Germany’s s.SS-Pz.Abt. 101. These Armoured BGs are best used in tandem with other supporting BGs, or they can be merged with weaker BGs.

All BGs have their strengths and weaknesses. These become more pronounced as battle fatigue, and attrition accumulate. Overall, there is much more flexibility in German BGs due to their desperate, defensive stance in Normandy, and their historical/doctrinal proclivity to counterattack and form kampfgruppes.

Now that BGs can be stacked and/or combined, there are more pathways to strategic success and frustration. Along with the more detailed turn resolution in the arrival of BGs (BGs can now arrive on individual turns within a day, and are not limited to the beginning of a day as in CC5), a player is offered a more realistic situation within the context of the first several days of the Normandy campaign.

#38: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Tejszd, Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:32 am
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Sounds good Cathartes! Did you take how to notes on what you learned so far????

#39: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: kweniston, Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:41 pm
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Sounds/looks very good, looking so forward to playing this!

#40: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:00 am
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this weekend?....(Heads up i am not playing any CC because i am waiting for GJS and have not played now for 3 months)...its like drugs... or beer lao to me so i need it!

:P tigercub

#41: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:30 am
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Tough match-up at Bieville-- had a hunch that I would get into trouble here. After-battle in this image, and can see I was lucky to hold onto the map, a more aggressive push by Monty would have forced my retreat:

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#42: Ranville Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:41 am
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Neither BG has tanks at this point. KG Luck has only halftracks and PzGrenadiers, but a handful of MkIVs and other tanks should be available in the BG by morning. 6th Airlanding doesn't quite have its Tetrarchs yet, they are still forming up and clearing their axles of tightly-wrapped parachute chords. They should be available starting in the am as well.

The battle goes round and naval arty and an airstrike keep the Germans honest. In the end, the Allies gain a VL location in Ranville. It will be key to get the Pegasus VL to the north and open up full supply east of the Orne.

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#43: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: tigercub, Location: charters towers

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:52 am
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Naval in Ranville?

#44: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:02 am
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June 6, end of PM turn. Some big opening afternoon battles, but also a lot of fun mopping up the beachhead maps. Other than Gold Beach and Port-en-Bessin, every beach map is solidly in Allied control. Many battlegroups can start moving inland, and Bayeux will likely fall into Allied hands by morning, pretty much as it did historically. Other than KG Meyer, which will be quickly overwhelmed and surrounded if it doesn't withdraw, resistance is token in front of the 50th Division. By the afternoon, 7 Armoured Div (22 Armd Bde) and 8 Armoured Bde arrive--two tank-heavy BGs.

Around Sword Beach and the Orne the picture is less rosy. 21 Panzer is making a strong showing, and it's unlikely that the Allies will gain much more without a tough fight. Caen looks entirely out of reach. The Allies would have been at Caen's doorstep if I had captured the rear exit VLs on Sword on the am of June 6--not an easy task in a 15 minute battle traveling between large minefields.

The good news is that the Allied beachhead is secure, and growing more so with each turn.

#45: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:06 am
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tigercub wrote (View Post):

Naval in Ranville?

Yes indeed!

#46: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Antony_nz,

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:54 pm
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I think we need a wager on the capture of Caen. 100 dollars say you don't capture it in 6 days :)

Keep it up.

#47: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:03 pm
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Antony_nz wrote (View Post):

I think we need a wager on the capture of Caen. 100 dollars say you don't capture it in 6 days :)

Keep it up.

making an offer here? Wink

Think Caen would be tough at this point, but it depends on the player.

#48: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:13 am
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Lots to catch up on, but here's a short video of some of the action at Bieville. The Germans very nearly pushed the Brits off the map, but were repulsed and paid the price in tanks while the British paid in sprites:

Link

#49: Re: Push to Bayeux Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:21 pm
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Bayeux is captured at the risk of temporarily losing supply. KG Meyer has withdrawn and must be at Creully. Monty told me he was not going to leave this relatively potent BG to get caught behindlines. Even though this BG has Stugs, it's a slow mover. Historically, KG Meyer had nothing more than bicycles and a few Stugs to ride on. We will encounter this BG again soon. Currently, it's the only force standing between the Allies and total breakout (for now).

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#50: Re: Beyond Sword Beach Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:42 pm
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Behind Juno and Sword Beaches, the 9/3 Canadians punched through Basly against a weak static BG; they advance to Hermanville and encounter 12th SS for the first time. I withdraw the 153 Bde of the 51st Highland Division, its position tenuous. With Sword Beach cleared, the British 3rd Infantry Division can advance in its place, opening a new entry VL. It could be a protracted fight in Bieville. The 185/3 could not land this turn because of the backup on Sword Beach. I'll be waiting to see if it arrives next turn along with the four armoured BGs the Allies get by the afternoon. Monty is playing well as Germans considering he has very little experience with CC.

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#51: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: dgfred, Location: N.C., USA

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:30 am
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Thanks for the video! Cool

#52: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:41 pm
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The test game continues, moving past Bayeux!

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#53: Re: GJS-LSA grand campaign test Author: Cathartes,

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:47 pm
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One German soldier left in all of Port-en-Bessin, and still have to fight another battle to root him out...sigh.

On the upside, captured all VLs in Tailleville against a weekened static BG, path is now clear to unleash the raw power of the Tyne and Tees, Desert Rats, and Canucks!

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Close Combat Series -> H2H Multiplayer

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