[TWJunky]

Thank you mick_xe5! i had to change that for all axis Kdo. versions. they all head a 3 (asst leader) insetad of a  4 (commander).

I am also wondering why the 8cm sdkfz mortar shoots so slow? i just timed it an it takes 47 sec for a seen battle unit to fire, reload and fire again. the infantry version shoots every 20 sec. is this intentional? i dont see why the sdkfz would take more than doubble the time to reload. where do i change that it the data sheet?

I am going to make some corrections to the data sheets as i am head to heading my way through gjs. if somebody wants my updated data sheets just tell me where to put it. i will also keep log of all the changes I have made. nothing big just correcting small mistakes mainly.

[mick_xe5]

Weapons.txt file columns H, I, J & K all control aspects involving rate of fire

H - Time to chamber a new round from clip (in 1/10 sec).  Range = 0+
I - Time to reload a new clip (in 1/10 sec).  Range = 0+
J - Time to fire the weapon (in 1/10 sec).  Range = 0+
K - Time to setup the weapon after moving (in 1/10 sec).  Range = 0+

eg. a value of 50 in 1/10th sec increments = 5 secs

[TWJunky]

there is only one 8cm mortar in the woapons table. i cant seem to find the version that is mounted on the sdkfz halftruck.

[mick_xe5]

The GJS 8cm is weapon class 20 and is used on vehicles and in ground teams. It is mounted on the SdKfz 250/7 and 251/2 as Turret Gun 1 in Vehicles.txt column BJ. The difference in rates of fire is that even though both the vehicle and ground versions have 3 man crews, in the vehicles one crewman is driving, the crew leader is manning the mg leaving one guy to do all the work on the 8cm. In the ground 8cm units all 3 crewmen work the tube.

[TWJunky]

ok understood.  the launcher shoots so slow that it almost makes no sense to take it. is there some way that i can make the crew leader who is manning the mg assist the gunner? that way at least 2 of the 3 will work the tube.

[mooxe]

Mortars have always been a contentious issue between people who wanted to play a game, and people who wanted to play a simulator. There's been countless debates over the years. In this case I think the scales are tipping towards simulator based on the fact you can't even fire all the rounds in the standard game length of 15-30mins. (If you play Gateway to Caen, its almost pointless to bring mortars as the scales are tipped entirely in favour of simulator.)

47 seconds is pretty long. Did you confirm reload time in the data sheet? To fire all 45 rounds you'd need continuous fire for 35minutes, not including expending your smoke rounds.

Is it possible the machine gunner assist the mortar and resort back to the mg when ammo is expended, or when there's green LOS to the target?

[TWJunky]

as a note i am playing on medium speed. it is almost impossible to fire of all the rounds in a game that lasts 30 min.

the 8cm mortar sdkfz 250 halftruks in gtc fire at about the same speed as the infantry version. if i am not mistaking all crew members assist when the mortar is firing.

i have played a lot of differnt cc titles and i am confident to say, that in gtc the mortars fell just right!

[mick_xe5]

One way to make the LSA/GJS HT mortars fire faster without also increasing the ground 8cm units rate of
fire is to create a second 8cm weapon entry in the Weapons file for the HTs. Stock LSA already has separate ground and vehicle mortar versions. The second HT weapon entry would then get lower (faster) time to reload, time to chamber new clip and time to fire values to equalize the discrepancy with the ground version. Then the vehicles file woul get updated so that the GE 8cm HTs would point to the new weapon entry as Turret Gun 1.

[TWJunky]

thanks mick. good idea works like a charm.

where do i change the bg reinforcement schedule?

[mick_xe5]

In fpools.txt, per attached pic using only 501/101 as an example:

Cell A:8 specifies that 501/101 gets 2 turns of reinforcements. BGs with 0 in this location of their fpools entry get no reinforcements.
A:9 specifies the first reinforcement turn is 7 turns after this BG enters play.
B:9 specifies whether the BG needs to be in supply to get this turn of reinforcements. 0 = no supply needed. 1 = minor supply needed. 2 = major supply needed.
C:9 specifies whether to re-try a reinforcement tun if the BG doesnt meet the supply requirement. 0 = no re-try; 1 = re-try next turn.
D:9 specifies the first team class # in that turns reinforcement. -1 = no team class
E:9 specifies the quantity of the D:9 team class to be reinforced
F:9 specifies the second team class # in that turns reinforcement
G:9 specifies the quantity of the F:9 team class to be reinforced

Step and repeat for the rest of row 9. Row 10 specifies the same values for reinforcement turn 15.

[TWJunky]

Thanks mick! big help!

since you seem to know what you are talking about, can you please explain to me how repair works?
assuming they are in full supply, when do vehicles get repaired? only over night? or after each battle? only when a resuply turn is planed?
when do vehicles count as damged? sometimes i see that they are damaged (main gun) in tacticl battle but in the after battle statistics they dont appear as damaged.
I have been playing hundreds of hours of cc and i still dont understand when this.

[mick_xe5]

If a vehicle is damaged in battle but not noted as such in the Debrief stats I'd assume it was damaged. The stats arent always accurate.

The pertinent info on vehicle repair from p.56 in the LSA manual:

[TWJunky]

i dont know about the stats not bein corrrect. there seem to be a correaltion between vehicles that are immobilzed or tracked and vehicles that are counted as damaged in the after battel stats.
also are units that repaired left in the aktiv roster? or are they returned to forcepool once they are repaired? at what stage does the repaired yes/no check happen. can that be modified in the data tables?

The manual states that infantry units that have taken 50% or less losses are replaced at the end of each battle. The aktive roster only seems to be filled back up over night and not after every strtegic turn. or am i missunderstanding strategic turn?

[mick_xe5]

As it turns out from some preliminary testing, the Repair and Replacement function and description is confusing, contradictory and possibly bugged.

The stats are not correct if my tank takes battle damage and loses its main gun but that event is not shown on the Debrief screen.

The stats are not correct if 3 vehicles (a tank, an armored car and a halftrack) are immobilized at the start of battle for lack of fuel, only the tank is listed in the Debrief stats as damaged but both the tank and armored car are removed from the active roster at the end of the strategic turn. Firstly, how is running out of fuel considered damage? The 5 minute field expedient is to drain fuel from another vehicle to get the empty vehicle running again.

There is contradiction and confusion in the Repair and Replacement section of the manual. Consider the two following sentences:

1. Any infantry unit that has 50% or more of its soldiers killed or seriously wounded is disbanded,
and its survivors are either sent to other units or rotated to the rear.

2. After a battle, units with less than 50% personnel strength are automatically returned to the
Forcepool, and their soldiers are used to fill out losses in other teams.

IMO, 'disbanded' and 'returned to the forcepool' are not the same. Disbanded should mean removed from the forcepool. '50% or more' in #1 is not the same parameter as 'less than 50%' in #2 because it doesnt indicate what happens to units with exactly 50% loss.

Also, 'Note: Repair and resupply occurs at the end of every strategic turn' is confusing because resupply and replacement are different. Resupply does take place at the end of every strategic turn but the Supply system is a different section of the manual so why mention it here and omit mentioning the timing of replacements.

The check whether a tank needs repair happens at the end of every strategic turn. The check as to whether it actually gets repaired and returned to the forcepool roster should happen at the beginning of every new day. However, night turns are the first (beginning) turn of the day but the repair system seems to use the first daylight turn of the day.

Part of the problem with the manual may be because the section on Repair and Replacement dates back to CC4 and portions of that section have been recycled without questioning whether they makes sense or still apply to the current game. Im going to do additional testing and try to resolve some of these issues more thoroughly.

[TWJunky]

mick, very good analysis indeed. I absolutley agree with you! One point i am not quite sure about is the repair check. i bleive this check is done right after each battle. but then again this is jsut a feeling i got while doind some testing. i am also suspecting that the sheduled supplys have something to do with whether a unit gets repaired at all. i might be tottaly wrong. dont the data tables give some insight into this? you want  to post your last post on the official cc form? maybe steve from matrix can give us some insight?

[mick_xe5]

In my 'out of supply/immobilized vehicles' test all of the immobillized vehicles were removed from the active roster & forcepool and none were returned to the forcepool the next day. Having none of the fuel immobilized vehicles returned to the forcepoolis substantially different that the manual which says "Battle Groups out of supply have a reduced chance of repairing damaged vehicles or replacing infantry losses."

Only the tanks were listed on the Debrief stats as being damaged and the manual refers at one point only to tanks being repaired but at a different point to vehicles being repaired. This is where a custom 5 second game timer is most useful to cycle through turns more quickly.

I'm going to do more testing before putting this to Steve so he'll have a complete analysis of the situation and wont have to spend time he should be coding The Bloody First tracking down bugs and misstatements in an older title.

[TWJunky]

i knew that there was something fishy! i would even dare to say that immobilized tanks dont get repaired at all, regardles of the supply situation. can you test that as well? if you need help testing just give me heads up!

[mooxe]

In CC5 I remember this working. After the turn was complete I would check the active forcepool of a BG in the strategy screen if it was still there, sometimes it was, other times no. Sometimes vehicles were sent back into the fight damaged. This happened with cut-off units. You would be playing again with immo'd tanks and tanks with no main gun.

Tanks out of fuel were also considered damaged in the debrief screen but I don't remember losing them from the forcepool.

In multiplayer GCs this was a tactic used by the few that understood repair. You would damage a tank and bypass it playing the odds it would be gone next battle.

[mick_xe5]

I think that's part of the problem - CC5 had one strat turn per day so if the vehicle was removed the next turn then it was considered a repair loss. If it stayed then it ostensibly had been repaired. The WAR/TLD/LSA manuals werent updated fully to reflect multiple turns per day.

The fact that unrepaired vehicles remained in the CC5 active roster is sort of historical  but Im sure players couldnt stand not being able to tell if a vehicle was still damaged in the Req phase especially when they could have repaired it themselves simply by cycling it back through the forcepool.

Even if a reproducible repair bug can be provided to Matrix/Slitherine its only going to be added to the existing maybe someday bug list.

[mick_xe5]

The scenario setup and conditions shown on the attached pic should have created Low (red) Ammo/Fuel status with black out of supply X's for both BGs. Neither side controls its depot nor does it control an exit VL to its depot. Instead, both BGs have high Ammo/Fuel status (green) and have full incoming supply (green +'s).

Also ran across this tidbit concerning Repair in the Supply section of the manual:

Battle Groups whose ammunition supply reaches None only replace infantry or repair damaged vehicles 75% of the time.

Since 40% of damaged tanks can be made functional in BGs with ammo levels above none this seems like a bonus for running out of ammo. More likely its 75% of 40% = 30% chance for BGs with no ammo to repair vehicles.