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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Hi to all, here some questions about the mod:

How many tank destroyers/assault guns had a divisional (infantry) panzer abtl. in 1942? And considering a standard number, it’s possible that german Armies involved in Op. Fridericus had a major number of them due to imminent offensive (for the russian attack become counteroffensive)?

German Armies: about 6th army nothing to ask, but I have problems to be sure which divisions were in 17th Army and which in 1st Panzer Army. First of all I know that von Kleist, commander of the 1st Panzer Army, had “in practice” the command of both 1st panzer Army (it was in a “transitory/under construction” situation?) and 17 Army: it has existed an Army Group von  Kleist, some fonts say from January 1942 to end of may (end of battle of Kharkov), some others to the russian attack (12 may 1942) to the end of may, anyway the two Armies under his command continued to exist also under his Army group.
Moreover, I know that for operation Fridericus some Army Corps (XXXXIV for sure) have changed Army (from 17th to 1st Panzer and maybe also vice versa, of course always under Army Group von Kleist command), but probably only after russian attack and in the imminence of Op. Fridericus. Various fonts have different point of view about this fact.
Well, my question is: on 12 may (12 may, not 17 may) which was the order of battle  of the 1st Panzer Army and 17th Army? My opinion is: 17th Army: XI, XXXXIV and LII Army Corps; 1st Panzer Army: III Panzer Corps, IV Army Corps. I would confirm about my guess.

Thanks in advance for who wants/can help.

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Hi Drizzt,

There were no PzAbt in German IDs. Since 1943 10 StuGs and 14 Marders (later Herzers) were included in IDs PzJAbt.
In time of Kharkov 1942 there were no AVFs in German IDs. StuGs attached to IDs were from separate StuGAbt. Normally a battery for infantry battalion but could vary.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Hi Dima, very strange.. I have done this kind of research some years ago so I don't remember all fonts, but on Feldgrau site you can see 44th, 168th, and 384th divisions (the others in the mod are without info about this aspect on Feldgrau site).
About 44th you can see order of battle of 1939 and 1943 and in 1939 there is the panzerjager abtl. (and a radfahr abtl. that I suppose was the "old style" aufklarungs abtl.); in 168th you can't see different years but I have supposed was good for 1942 period because I can read "infanterie regiment" (not "grenadier regiment": late war period infantry style). About the 384th, again two periods: 1942 and 1944: again you can see aufklarungs and panzerjager abtl. in both periods.
Anyway of course I can't be sure to have reason: I report what I have found.
In the mod there are 6 mixed recon-panzejager battlegroups: if you have reason I have a good quantity of extra work to do that involves also standard german infantry battlegroups.

Drizzt

Edit: Only now I realize that about aufklarungs abtl. you have said nothing, so there is a hope that, even if you have reason, I will not rework mixed battlegroups because they can be divisional aufklarungs abtl. reinforced by independent panzerjager abtl.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Before typ43 organization (late 1943) PzJAbt in IDs had towed ATGs only (36 max).

Aufklarer Abt in IDs had 3 leSPW (usually sdkfz 221 with leMG).
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Ok Dima, thanks. The mixed battlegroups can remain: they simulate divisional units that fight reinforced by separate StuGAbt., and even if (for sure) they aren't 100% historically corrected, it' a concession to the game play that I can accept.

About the numbers of late 1943 stugs and marders in infantry divisions (24), can give me an idea about the numbers of stugs into (1942) separated stug abtl: in the mod they are 26 for every infantry division, seems to me an acceptable number.

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Hi Drizzt,

IIRC StuGAbt had 21 StuGs that time.
Regarding a number of such abteilungs, f.e. during the assault of Stalingrad in September 1942 6A had 2 StugAbt with mixed equipment.
Which stugabt do you plan to use? Same question for separate pzjabt?
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Hi Dima, in the mod not all the infantry divisions of the 6th army have a "full" stug support, so the total number in 6th Army for now is 94. I don't know if also 6th Army with operation blu (forces have been splitted for the the advance in the caucas) arrived in Stalingrad more weak, anyway probably 94 are too much.

The stug are: StugIIIC, StugIIIE and Stug40F.

About "same question for separate pzjaqbt?" sorry but I don't have understood your question.

Drizzt

Edit: you have asked me about stugabt and not stug type (my fault): to be honest I don't have chosen nothing, I have just given to infantry divisions the stug support.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Drizzt,

Quote:
Edit: you have asked me about stugabt and not stug type (my fault): to be honest I don't have chosen nothing, I have just given to infantry divisions the stug support.

please dont hate me Smile but according to this excellent webpage: http://stugiii.com/stugunits/heerunits.html there were only 3 StuGAbt in that area in May 1942:

?191 (6A)
?244 (6A)
?245 (17A)

so even if they were at full strength (which is unlikely) there could be 63 StuGs in a total.

Quote:
I will not rework mixed battlegroups because they can be divisional aufklarungs abtl. reinforced by independent panzerjager abtl.

btw, for your reference the total number of heavy weapons in Aufklaraer Abt was:
3 leSPW.
3 pak36 or 38.
2 leIG18.
3 5cm mortars.
2 sMG.

Aufklaraer squad had 12men with 2 MP and 1 leMG Smile
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Dima of course I don’t hate you: a big truth to say about my mod is that, considering the scale of the mod, Battlegroups big something like 25% of a Corps would have been the right choice to totally simulate this big battle in CC, but in the mod as it is now, I must reach a game balance: not for the game balance itself, but because the AFV situation was really balanced. Feel free to report what you want: every time I choose if modify something or not and info are always useful (thanks for the research).

I have reduced the number of Stug to 76 for the 6th Army (but all panzer divisions of the three Armies in the mod are without them: even if not historically corrected will remain in this way because panzer divisions elements can help infantry elements and the battlegroups are only 64), 36 stugs for 17th Army and 20 for the 1st Panzer Army. To save the gameplay the will remain in this way.
Moreover, panzer divisions in the mod have a good number of sdkfz 251 (historically corrected about the various type, about the number.. something like 20 for regiment) and mixed aufk-PJ battlegroups have few sdkfz 250 (corrected about the type: I’m not sure if they were in infantry divisions but seems to me strange that entire infantry divisions were without any of them: anyway they will remain). These 6 mixed battlegroups in the mod are also supported by few standard infantry division units and in every Army (Army, not division) there are 5 PZ II as recon command tank (but all panzer divisions have some PZ II).

Of course, I have clear in my mind that a with a total realism work (teams, soldiers etc.) like your work on GJS (that personally I admire) my talk about game balance - gameplay ceases to have sense, because the game balance is reached thanks to the total realism itself.

Ok about Aufklaraer squad: they have 7 men in the mod and I will set them to 10 men with the weapons you have reported (thanks).

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

It was a joke and your are welcome Smile.

Quote:
but all panzer divisions of the three Armies in the mod are without them: even if not historically corrected will remain in this way because panzer divisions elements can help infantry elements and the battlegroups are only 64

In 1942 only Grossdeutchland and SS-Divisions had StuGs - other did not.

Quote:
and mixed aufk-PJ battlegroups have few sdkfz 250 (corrected about the type: I’m not sure if they were in infantry divisions but seems to me strange that entire infantry divisions were without any of them: anyway they will remain).

yes, in RL the german IDs didn;t have any HTs - the only armored vehicles they had in 1942 were 3 SdKFz 221 in Aufkl.Abt.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Ok for all Dima, but.. sdkfz 222 and 232 were in Mot Div and/or PzDiv?
And just for curiosity: 560th and 670th panzerjager bn don't contained AFV?

The mixed battlegroups in the mod contain also some pioneers regiments/bn, anyway maybe in future (not near future) I will change them with the 60th infantry motorized division and 101st Jager division: Jager divisions had halftracks?

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Quote:
sdkfz 222 and 232 were in Mot Div and/or PzDiv?

IIRC only in PzD that time.

Quote:
And just for curiosity: 560th and 670th panzerjager bn don't contained AFV?

670 was equipped with PzJager I.
560 had towed guns.

Quote:
I will change them with the 60th infantry motorized division and 101st Jager division: Jager divisions had halftracks?

none of them had.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Ok Dima, thanks as always. About russian guards rifle squad: they are of 11 men with 1 lmg like normal (not guards) rifle squad?

Drizzt
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Dima

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votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Yes.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Excellent Dima, thanks to you I have done a good Data work: not very deep but not only a simple polishing work, and also the things that I don't have changed are anyway good informations for a possible future work.

Drizzt
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Tanks gun question
I think to have done confusion with two tanks gun due to an error in one of my fonts. For now, the follow soviet tanks have:

captured t-34: L-11 gun (old 1940 model captured some months before the battle..): should be ok.
T-34 obr 41: f-34 gun: should be ok.
T-34 obr 42: f-34 gun: should be ok.
KV-1 obr 40: f-32 gun: should be ok.
KV-1 obr 41: f-34 gun: wrong?
KV-1 obr 41 (zis 5): zis5 gun: it's the "KV version" of F-34 gun?

I suspect that F-34 and Zis-5 are basically the same gun: the first for T-34 tank, the second for KV tank: is in this way?
And KV-1e was available in 2nd Kharkov?

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Quote:
captured t-34: L-11 gun (old 1940 model captured some months before the battle..): should be ok.

i've never seen any photo of captured T34 with L-11.

Quote:
KV-1 obr 41: f-34 gun: wrong?

yes.

Quote:
KV-1 obr 41 (zis 5): zis5 gun: it's the "KV version" of F-34 gun?

yes but could be with both F-32 and ZIS-5.

Quote:
I suspect that F-34 and Zis-5 are basically the same gun: the first for T-34 tank, the second for KV tank: is in this way?

yes.

Quote:
And KV-1e was available in 2nd Kharkov?

yes with F-32.
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Drizzt

Rep: 114.3
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Thanks Dima, ok for all. My fonts say that F-32 was in obr.40 but not in obr.41 (anyway I have learnt to believe you when my fonts say another thing).
KV-1(e) with F-32 it's an obr.40 or obr.41? (in stalingrad mod it's an obr. 41, but in my fonts I have read that has existed also obr.40 version, so I'm asking which use for 2nd Kharkov timeline).

Drizzt
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Quote:
My fonts say that F-32 was in obr.40 but not in obr.41 (anyway I have learnt to believe you when my fonts say another thing).

first KVs were with L-11 (1939-1940).
since January 1941 they started to get F-32.
since October 1941 they started to get ZIS-5 along with F-32.

Quote:
KV-1(e) with F-32 it's an obr.40 or obr.41? (in stalingrad mod it's an obr. 41, but in my fonts I have read that has existed also obr.40 version, so I'm asking which use for 2nd Kharkov timeline).

there is a photo of KO KV-1e at Kharkov - it is obr.41.
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Drizzt

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Questions about the timeline of Kharkov mod Reply with quote

Thanks again Dima. In stalingrad mod there are command Panzer IIIH without the main gun (only mg): it's a choice or an error to correct? I ask because I use command panzer IIIH me too.
Another thing: normally, it's better to create two different weapons for main guns of tanks and of antitank-inf. guns because, even when they are total identical, the main gun of tanks has the assault fire (fire in movement) option on true (1), the gun of anti tank-inf. guns not (0 = false). Now: 45mm 53k gun, in stalingrad mod, has been used in both Bt7-m tank and 45mm anti tank gun: it's normal that Bt7-m can't fire in movement or is better to create two guns? I ask because I use them me too.

I'm working hard on data: I have released a Data with the very recent work and the work of two years ago, but without the fundamental work of 4-5 years ago about tanks/vehicles and weapons (I thought to work on it!): I will correct all. I have finally found it (I thought to have lost it) so the work fortunately will be enough fast.

Drizzt
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