Being pretty much a non believer I thought Bill Nye made lots of good points. Ken Ham, when asked for proof of his views could only say it was the word of God. That doesn't cut it for me.
Much of the debate revolved around the age of the earth. Ken used a quote from a creationist astronomer that said something like, "There's no evidence in astronomy that contradicts a 6000 year old earth." WHAT??? I might as well say, "There's no evidence in this Oh Henry bar that the moon doesn't exist!" Bill Nye brought up scientific dating methods. Ken also brought up those methods and questioned why they didn;t always come to the same answer.
Dinosaurs didn't come up really. However a picture of Ken Hams creationist museum has a life size dinosaur model out front. Do they believe we walked the earth with dinosaurs somewhere in the last few thousand years?
Ken tried to make a difference in historical science vs observational science, which is what we see now. One of his examples... just because a ring on a tree means one year today doesn't mean it meant one year in the past. This came about from trees that are over 6000 years old that still live on earth. Basically since we never observed the past, we can't prove what science was used in the past. Science today cannot explain what happened in the past-- he believes this!
Question from audience to Ken. "If evidence was shown to you that the earth is more than 6000 years old, would you still believe in God?" Answer (not a quote), "That would be impossible because it is not Gods word, its impossible to prove the earth is over 6000 years old, no method can ever exist ti prove the earth is older than 6000 years."
All I have to say is WOW. There's reasonable religious folks, and Ken Ham is not one! He interprets the Bible literally, Bible quotes he cannot interpret literally are misunderstandings according to him. I have a name for Ken Ham... CIVILIZED EXTREMEIST
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
OK,
I watched it. I want my 2.5 hours back.
The only thing these debates confirm to me, is man's enormous capacity for deceit, and man's extrodinary ability to counter deceit with addtional deceit.
Nye seems to think that if he can prove the earth is older than 6,000 years, then creationism is totally debunked.
Perhaps Nye is nothing more than a biological accident with a miniscule duration and limited sensory apparatus. Why would any other self respecting life form determine his observations and analysis to be reliable. Not to mention the staggering amounts of faith that must be applied to accept his alternative view of creation.
Nye seems to think that if he can prove the earth is older than 6,000 years, then creationism is totally debunked.
He's smarter than that. When you only have a little of an hour to make your points you have to pick your battles. STWA maybe you need a staggering amount of faith to believe in evolution, what would you call the amount of faith to believe in young-earth creationism? If Bill was presented evidence that proved Ken's point of view, Bill would believe! Hes reasonable.
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
This is still driving me nuts. The creation musem actually has dinosaurs with saddles on them. There are videos of humans offering dinosaurs vegetables. They say all types of dinosaurs went onto Noah's Ark, including the Tyrannosaurus.
I really cannot even begin to understand how people believe that! On Trip Advisor one patron rated the museum 5 stars and commended them at accurately displaying history comparing it against the lies the Smithsonian is presenting. I liked America more as world police rather than religious nut cases.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
Dont Bother With them! They Are Nuts
Primeval,prehuman, and natural history are some of my favorite subjects. Even most Atheist don't understand how the worlds life really came about. Or evolved to what it is. I used to find it hard my self.
And most have a very basic cartooney understanding of the history of life.
I cant watch your video. But if i could im not sure if i would too. Its just infuriating.
Science its not a ideology. Its the best way of investigation.
Creationist will use there own system. They use tricks to to pretend to be scientist.
life is very self centered and the human brain is naturally religious.
People find it difficult to believe that we are just animals like the domesticated cat. But that's just because they have lived in the modern world for to long. And besides us, our kind is completely instinct. 30-14 thousand years ago, They all died out. People dont understand the branch of life.
Most creationist are just biased, brain washed individuals. But they are mostly stupid, or at least ignorant.
You do get intelligent ones like that guy, but that bring me back to a new thing i have discovered.
People will deny, or believe anything. NO MATTER WHAT!
Some people have the ability to make a theory seem believable no matter what.
Try looking up a subject you disagree with.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
I think the evolutionary model is pretty lame on their explanations also, and I don't go in for people like Ken Ham who are so dogmatic in their beliefs in spite of the facts or lack of them.
However, I find it interesting that a creationist that I had heard of, who is a retired USAF Colonel with a degree in mechanical engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and read his book had, what I considered, pretty intelligent ideas for the creationist model as opposed to the theory of evolution. He had proposed that the waters for the Great Deluge came from inside the Earth. That was many years ago. Now a new study has determined that there is more than three times the water in the Earth than in all the oceans. This info doesn't prove anything except that his theory is plausible.
A number of years ago there was an article that in the process of lifting a large leg bone of a Tyrannosaurus it broke open. To the amazement of the paleontologist who witnessed it there was tissue still in the bone. She was incredulous saying that she was not supposed to be expecting this. Recently I conducted a new search and found out that the reason the authorities gave for is because of iron in the tissue. Now I don’t know about you but from what we have been told all these years about the process of fossilization and the millions of years the dinosaurs died out this is a pretty lame explanation.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
How is it that I've been here for 48 years and there's never been a 1,2,3 or 400 year mission to find Noah's Ark or the Ten Commandments.
But we look for and find Dinosaur Bones?
How is it that not one country in this world has a crusade to find all these so called Biblical treasures from the past?
Just a month or two ago my son Michael asked me if we were smarter now than those before us?
My answer to him was how can we be smarter when we still don't know how they built the Pyramids?
How does that information get lost?
Was it so simple back then they just assumed everyone else would know?
How is it that we have so many different beliefs,so many different religions and yet so few artifacts?
But we can find bones in the ground.
We can sponsor a dig for dinosaur bones,but not a search for biblical history?
How the hell does that happen?
And not only that but how the hell does that happen for over 200 freaking years?
Is the answer because their isn't any God,Allah or whatever the F you call him?
We see Germs grow or mutate we see wildlife come/go.
We see what happens to life when introduced to this or that and how its life is effected.
Where the hell is your religious Proof?
Ohhhh that's right.................
its in your book.
You have a Book and if its written so it must be true.
Lets be even more simple shall we?
If Religion and Evolution were a crime Scene where would the majority of the FACTS Lie?
P.S
I didn't watch your stupid video so I have no idea if I'm even properly participating in this conversation.
I' just had a few beers and stayed at a Holiday Inn.
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
Actually Anthony_nz, I was a firm believer in the theory of evolution according to the drawings in the Time/Life Evolution book, faithfully following the supposed transition from fish, to amphibian, to reptile, to mammal, to ape, to human. Then when I started to look at some of the fossil evidence in a different light, that is, devoid of the theory of evolution, I started to realize a number of the fallacies that have been perpetrated on an unknowing public. Many times these supposed findings by the scientific community have been found to be false and yet the science books are still littered with the fallacies as truth. Without spending much time on any of them, just look up the falsehood that is Haeckel's embryonic drawings.
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
Yes. There have been many attempts to find the ark. If there was a great flood, we would know about it. Just like we know about the sudden great catastrophic floods in northern America during the ice age.
@ Schmal_Turm.
I must respectfully ask, Whats your point?
Do you believe there is a great conspiracy to hide the truth? Or just that the common excepted scientist understanding is wrong?
Actually Anthony_nz, I was a firm believer in the theory of evolution according to the drawings in the Time/Life Evolution book, faithfully following the supposed transition from fish, to amphibian, to reptile, to mammal, to ape, to human..
Human evolution has nothing to do with a drawing like that.
It all comes back to my original point. Most people have a very cartoony understanding of evolution. Its not surprising. I used to not get it my self. You cant look it as a single species evolving from one thing to the other.
Im not very good at expressing my thoughts through text. Let alone a complex subject like this. But hey!
The first creatures to walk the earth. (Lets say the fish) is no more related to humans than the elephant. Try not to look at it as such a direct decedent type of thing.
Im just expressing thoughts "Schmal_Turm, i hope im not jumping the gun or patronizing you.
Its just like i cant stand it when people say Birds evolved from dinosuars. NO! Birds lived at the same time as dinosaurs.
A T-Rex did NOT gradually grow smaller and smaller into a particular species of bird. Or any bird.
Nor did the Feathery raptor.
In my observations life seems to follow a type of prototype or blue print. For example i have read about creatures that lived before dinosaurs that in my personal view, resemble and function the same as the rhino.
There is no doubt we are a form of ape. Its important to know that there WAS a diverse range of us. A intelligent, standing ape. Unlike any other ape that lives today. But uniquely like us in characteristics and behavior.
Why theirs just us and what happened to The "other smart apes" is a different subject.
Many times these supposed findings by the scientific community have been found to be false and yet the science books are still littered with the fallacies as truth. Without spending much time on any of them, just look up the falsehood that is Haeckel's embryonic drawings.
Yes. I don't no what your underlying point is yet. But its perfectly understandable for there to be mistakes. (books don't disrepair needless to say). Im sure new books are no being printed with outdated or wrong info)
Look at some of the extremely wrong drawings of the world map.
Space books only a few decades old can be almost laughably wrong about the number of moons the planet has.
I have no dout humans understanding and identification of the human anatomy has been a slow walk up hill.
I think Leonardo Da Vinci finally made the best drawings. Then im presuming after martin Luther it got better. And im sure despite perfection of the Da Vincis drawings it has improved in the last 100 or even 40 years. I'm guessing.
I know it blew feudal japans mind when they discovered Europeans understanding of anatomy.
But most of the time its just improvisation,improvements and new discoveries that unlock mystery. Rarely is it a gross mistake or deception. And if they are guilty of that. Then they are not real scientist. Its fascinating the information that scientist admit to not knowing. And they should be carefully to clarify what theory and what is not known.
Ernst Haeckel died in 1919.
I'm not sure i entirely understand the controversy around his drawings? Are they not accurate?
Does he imply the early stages of evolution can be seen in the embryo some how?
I did some brief reading. Looks very complicated. I know he was criticized.
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
Anthony_nz,
No, I do not feel that you are patronizing me in any way.
As far as the picture of human evolution presented, that is how the Time/Life publishers decided to show the Theory of Evolution. Mind you, it is supposedly still a theory, yet presented as fact. That is the fallacy that I and a whole host of persons were allowed to swallow. The idea presented all the time today is that humans are 98% compatible with the chimpanzees; only problem is that 2% difference is something like 300 DNA strands. Seems to me that’s quite a chasm to cross to make humans fit into the evolutionary picture.
The idea you mentioned of the dinosaurs being nothing but big birds, or the reverse, that the birds are remnants of the dinosaurs, that is the picture presented by the evolutionary paleontologists for public consumption. That is the standard line today. I remember that the creationists attacked the idea that there really is little fossil evidence for the transitions between species, the so-called missing link. When the evidence was clearly lacking, if not non-existent, then out of the blue comes Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge. They proposed back in 1972 that the reason there was very little fossil evidence is because evolution actually proceeded by dramatic jumps, calling it punctuated equilibrium. This was really critical to the whole scheme of evolution as Charles Darwin mentioned in his book, Origin of the Species, that without these transitional fossils his theory would fall apart.
As far as the falsehoods in the books: I was referring primarily to the school books where it has been shown that the same falsehoods are still being presented.
The Haeckel drawings were shown to be contrived in a way to show a similarity that isn’t there of the young embryos of the different creatures shown in order to supposedly show the evolutionary link.
Yeah, I believe that there is a concerted effort by the scientific community to hide the truth from us when it doesn't fit in with the standard evolutionary line.
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Bill Nye vs Ken Ham Debate
I think there is little fossil evidence because there is just not that many fossils to find. Its so rare.
More so with Hominid and Humanoids. Due to there lifestyle and historically low numbers.
Did dinosaurs not have feathers? Fly? I believe modern style birds lived at the same time as dinosaurs.
Schmal_Turm what are your beliefs about life on earth for the last 3.5 billion years? Out of interest. Ill probably get more specific later on.
Such as, how olds do you think the earth might be,where did we came from. Do you believe we hybridized with neanderthal or other forms of humans?
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