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dj

Rep: 157.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:04 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Pro-Russia separatists have "No Fascism" signs in English at barricaded building.  Also they have anti-Nazi signs out.  It's as if they are trying to say the West are all fascists...or accusing the Ukrainian nationalists of being fascist sell-outs.  

Poles must be getting nervous?  It's not like this part of Europe has not been sliced up already 100 times over the years.  This reminds me of Yugoslavia situation with the collapse of USSR.
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tedy28

Rep: 59.9


PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Poles like russian....only normal russian
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:06 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I am glad the Ukraine has started cleaning house. They are going to have to be careful though. No doubt the Russians will be trying very hard to manipulate and steer the Ukrainian forces into larger "actions" in order to have a reason to deploy the Russian military inside the Ukraine.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:16 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
I am glad the Ukraine has started cleaning house. They are going to have to be careful though. No doubt the Russians will be trying very hard to manipulate and steer the Ukrainian forces into larger "actions" in order to have a reason to deploy the Russian military inside the Ukraine.

ahha, looks the brainwashing machine is working at full speed at your places Smile.
why when the Ukraine tried to clean their house in Kiev 3-4 months ago using riot police against protesters all the West was against it and even forced the cabinet and president to flee? What has changed and why the new Ukranian goverment is allowed to use deadly forces against protesters in the South East?
Why hasn't Russia deployed military in the Ukraine before even when the legal president was asking for that? Why would the RF willing to do that now?
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:53 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
mooxe wrote (View Post):
I am glad the Ukraine has started cleaning house. They are going to have to be careful though. No doubt the Russians will be trying very hard to manipulate and steer the Ukrainian forces into larger "actions" in order to have a reason to deploy the Russian military inside the Ukraine.

ahha, looks the brainwashing machine is working at full speed at your places Smile.
why when the Ukraine tried to clean their house in Kiev 3-4 months ago using riot police against protesters all the West was against it and even forced the cabinet and president to flee? What has changed and why the new Ukranian goverment is allowed to use deadly forces against protesters in the South East?
Why hasn't Russia deployed military in the Ukraine before even when the legal president was asking for that? Why would the RF willing to do that now?


Yup.

There are links or references to factual sources in this thread that demonstrate-

1. The US spent $5 billion in the Ukraine since the 1990s creating and cultivating friendly political forces.
2. The aim of this cultivation was regime change and the installation of a compliant puppet regime.
3. The US/EU knowingly employed neo-Nazi forces which the latter had only in 2012 asked other political parties in Ukraine not to ally or associate with, to spearhead their putsch in Kiev.

This known and verifiable information is seldom mentioned in the western media and never investigated, in favour of publicising as good coin, the belligerent, hypocritical and utterly false utterances of western and Kiev putsch politicians and diplomats.

Further, there are links to evidence that strongly suggest that western backed fascists were responsible for killing protesters in Kiev to justify regime change.

From this we can deduce that the western media, state and privately owned, is acting in concert to deceive its populations in the run up to a western provoked war with the Russian federation. That the Russian Federation media and its politicians are no less corrupt is irrelevant to this situation. This situation is clearly not of their making.
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Is what I said really that absurd after what happened in Crimea? I don't think I'm brainwashed. I look at this situation in very simple terms. If government buildings are being taken over by armed people, then the government must clear them out and regain control. Is this not whats happening?

They must regain control of the country and stabilize it. I could care less about the back story and conspiracy theories. After Crimea I do know that if things start to get bloody in areas predominantly Russian, ofcourse Russia will start stepping in. They did it in Crimea before any violence started! If they step in in a peacekeeping/protective and leave after the violence is quelled then fine. But if they step in and support a referendum then that gives credence to all the stories of Russian trying to take the Ukraine piece by piece.

How it got to this point doesn't really matter anymore, it's whats happening now and in the future that matters.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
I look at this situation in very simple terms. If government buildings are being taken over by armed people, then the government must clear them out and regain control. Is this not whats happening?

when the exactly same was happening 2-3 months ago in the Central and West Ukraine the US and the EU supported these actions of "peaceful protesters" against the corruption regime.
now absolutely the same is happening in the East Ukraine but now the protesters are against the current provisional goverment and now the US and the EU supports the provisional goverment against peaceful protesters.
these are the protesters supporting the federalization in Kramatorsk for instance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5Eew9bGi8KA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGW_wXRdDMY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31oLk4M7L48

do they look like the Russian SF?
btw on one of the videos one of the Ukranian goverment soldiers who decided to give up their BMD and fight along the protesters says that he'd better go fighting americans....

NATO claims the RF has 35-40K (some say up to 80k) of troops with armors at the border of Ukraine but why they only show a couple of jet squadrons and battalions? Where are all other troops? Not a single APC, MBT or soldier tent...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/04/140409_vj_russian_army_conditions.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/russia/2014/04/140411_russian_army_map.shtml
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26940375
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26968312
http://graphics.wsj.com/russian-forces-near-ukraine/#27

So yes for now I believe that's a brainwashing and propaganda, we'll see how it goes though.
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

With an unstable country next door, what country wouldn't bolster its military presence along the border. I barely need evidence to believe it.

I am going to assume this. The current government is supported by countries to its West mainly because they need an interim government during this turmoil. The West would not like to see the current government stay in power without fair elections. Can the Ukraine call fair elections now? Definitely not, not after losing control of parts of the country. Would Russia take advantage of the situation and manipulate events so parts of the Ukraine would become part of Russia? I think so. Would countries in the West try to manipulate events so the Ukraine stays whole? I believe so. I bet most reasonable people would agree.

I am not interested in propaganda or conspiracy theories. One can call any competing story either of those.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
Is what I said really that absurd after what happened in Crimea? I don't think I'm brainwashed. I look at this situation in very simple terms. If government buildings are being taken over by armed people, then the government must clear them out and regain control. Is this not whats happening?

They must regain control of the country and stabilize it. I could care less about the back story and conspiracy theories. After Crimea I do know that if things start to get bloody in areas predominantly Russian, ofcourse Russia will start stepping in. They did it in Crimea before any violence started! If they step in in a peacekeeping/protective and leave after the violence is quelled then fine. But if they step in and support a referendum then that gives credence to all the stories of Russian trying to take the Ukraine piece by piece.

How it got to this point doesn't really matter anymore, it's whats happening now and in the future that matters.


I look at this situation in very simple terms.

The world, and this situation are not simple and its face values are false. Yet we see from your various posts that the simplicity of your view is selective. It is simple fact in the public domain that Victoria Newland admitted the US has spent $5 billion fostering political parties in the Ukraine since the 1990s. It is a simple fact that that in a leaked telephone conversation, the Same Victoria Newland discussed with Geoffrey Pyatt, who was going to take what position in the putsch administration and who play what role. From those simple facts we see that the politicians of the putsch, including neo-Nazis, were agents of US foreign policy. You choose to dismiss and denigrate this as "conspiracy theory." It is not. It is incontrovertible fact.

How it got to this point doesn't really matter anymore, it's whats happening now and in the future that matters.

Words that defy belief. If you don't understand the past, you have no clue about the present and less about the future. If the Ukraine has been taken over by a US backed Russophobe fascist putsch, the Russian population are in danger. Yet you celebrate the intervention of the armed wing of this Russophobe putsch thus-  "I am glad the Ukraine has started cleaning house."

What exactly do you think these Russophobe Right Sector thugs in National Guard uniforms are going to be doing in Eastern Ukraine? And we also see that your openness to conspiracy theory is no less selective than the simplicity of your world view. You continued thus- "They are going to have to be careful though. No doubt the Russians will be trying very hard to manipulate and steer the Ukrainian forces into larger "actions" in order to have a reason to deploy the Russian military inside the Ukraine."

So the Russians are attempting to manipulate the situation for their own nefarious ends but-

The West would not like to see the current government stay in power without fair elections.

The Ukrainian fascists are violently cleaning out the media of dissenting voices and attacking pro Russian politicians. In what sense can any elections carried out under these circumstances be "fair"? Democracy is not just about votes. It is the social structure and freedom of information in which the votes take place.

I am going to assume this. The current government is supported by countries to its West mainly because they need an interim government during this turmoil.

Incorrect, you are going to assume it because you have dismissed the factual evidence of who installed the putsch government and why as "conspiracy theory." The vacuum you now try to fill with fairy tales.



I am not interested in propaganda or conspiracy theories. One can call any competing story either of those.


You should be, you regurgitate propaganda in every word. As stories compete, you have to check out their veracity, something you have avoided at every turn in favour of fantasies, comforting assumptions and propaganda that sits well with you.

Show me a brainwashed person that understands  they are. Your reasoning is at best, inadequate to understand this situation.
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I believe a reasonable person would agree with my previous post. To add to it, I am predicting the Ukraine will be further split up. Not necessarily ceded to Russia, but maybe made a country or state on its own, ripe for the picking years down the road.

I guess we can just agree that everything I say, you say and what everyone else says is propaganda. You literally cannot form an opinion on anything without the influence of something.
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dj

Rep: 157.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

sieterayos wrote (View Post):
Dima wrote (View Post):
mooxe wrote (View Post):
I am glad the Ukraine has started cleaning house. They are going to have to be careful though. No doubt the Russians will be trying very hard to manipulate and steer the Ukrainian forces into larger "actions" in order to have a reason to deploy the Russian military inside the Ukraine.

ahha, looks the brainwashing machine is working at full speed at your places Smile.
why when the Ukraine tried to clean their house in Kiev 3-4 months ago using riot police against protesters all the West was against it and even forced the cabinet and president to flee? What has changed and why the new Ukranian goverment is allowed to use deadly forces against protesters in the South East?
Why hasn't Russia deployed military in the Ukraine before even when the legal president was asking for that? Why would the RF willing to do that now?


Yup.

There are links or references to factual sources in this thread that demonstrate-

1. The US spent $5 billion in the Ukraine since the 1990s creating and cultivating friendly political forces.
2. The aim of this cultivation was regime change and the installation of a compliant puppet regime.
3. The US/EU knowingly employed neo-Nazi forces which the latter had only in 2012 asked other political parties in Ukraine not to ally or associate with, to spearhead their putsch in Kiev.

This known and verifiable information is seldom mentioned in the western media and never investigated, in favour of publicising as good coin, the belligerent, hypocritical and utterly false utterances of western and Kiev putsch politicians and diplomats.

Further, there are links to evidence that strongly suggest that western backed fascists were responsible for killing protesters in Kiev to justify regime change.

From this we can deduce that the western media, state and privately owned, is acting in concert to deceive its populations in the run up to a western provoked war with the Russian federation. That the Russian Federation media and its politicians are no less corrupt is irrelevant to this situation. This situation is clearly not of their making.


Siet what is your definition of "fascist"?  Why would the west create a conspiracy to start war with Russian Federation.  Because ethnic Russians are being oppressed in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine?
Sounds like a nice conspiracy theory but is just not credible.  Political and Economic factions for centuries have used puppets and purchased the influence of leaders, regardless of ideology or religion.
Where is your alleged evidence?  A Partisan website or blog?
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
I believe a reasonable person would agree with my previous post.


To add to it, I am predicting the Ukraine will be further split up. Not necessarily ceded to Russia, but maybe made a country or state on its own, ripe for the picking years down the road.

I guess we can just agree that everything I say, you say and what everyone else says is propaganda. You literally cannot form an opinion on anything without the influence of something.


What is a "reasonable person" if not an agglomeration of your own, western propaganda derived  prejudices? There certainly aren't many in Russia. though certainly plenty scared of getting their sorry selves evaporated in a nuclear holocaust.

What you form the opinion on will play a large part in determining the extent to which it approximates truth. If you base it on fact it has a larger chance of doing so than if you base it on lies, selective and dis information. To equate fact based opinions with those based on disinformation and lies is clearly sceptical nonsense. It's an argument akin to the escape clause of the religious minded who, when confronted with an insoluble contradiction in their doctrine, answer "god moves in mysterious ways."
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):


Siet what is your definition of "fascist"?
 

Fascism is a far right political phenomenon that takes hold, in the first place, of sections of the middle class when society has come to an impasse; When social contradictions are acute yet the progressive class, the working class, is unable to resolve them. The volatile middle class, seeing no way forward, backs up, regurgitating all the barbarism of the old society in its most naked and virulent form.

Fascism has a populist front and will inevitably have a left as well as right wing. This causes confusion amongst those unable to cut to the social essence of the movement and lacking understanding of the political impotence of the middle class. Battered both by big capital and the working class in struggle against it, the middle class mass is hostile to both. Lacking an independent basis in productive social relations, it can offer no way forward and must surrender power to, or act in the interests of, another social class, the big bourgeoisie.

Fascism, then, becomes the most ardent defender of big capital, in spite of itself. Its socialist pretensions are dropped at the first opportunity leaving the working class atomised and violently restrained. "The nation," the economic and political basis of capitalism, becomes the sole beneficiary of its violence.

dj wrote (View Post):
Why would the west create a conspiracy to start war with Russian Federation.  Because ethnic Russians are being oppressed in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine?
Sounds like a nice conspiracy theory but is just not credible.  Political and Economic factions for centuries have used puppets and purchased the influence of leaders, regardless of ideology or religion.
Where is your alleged evidence?  A Partisan website or blog?


Clearly you have not followed the links I provided for you to Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard. This is the geo-strategic aim of the US through all administrations. No conspiracy theory, just conspiracy in black and white and from the horses mouth. If you want to understand motive for what's going on, and no analysis of a situation is complete without it, it's all there. On the other hand, if you want to read books for overgrown kids, there are plenty of suggestions in the "What are you reading" thread.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/pro-russian-separatists-seize-ukrainian-armoured-vehicles
 
Some accounts of interaction between soldiers and civilians recall the November revolution. How long before this predominantly working class revolt rejects the Kremlin and its oligarchs too?
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mooxe

Rep: 221.1
votes: 25


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

From BBC...

Quote:
He (Putin) also admitted for the first time that Russian troops had been "behind the backs of self-defence forces in Crimea" to ensure that last month's referendum there could be held and that weapons stores were not seized by Ukrainian forces.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
From BBC...

Quote:
He (Putin) also admitted for the first time that Russian troops had been "behind the backs of self-defence forces in Crimea" to ensure that last month's referendum there could be held and that weapons stores were not seized by Ukrainian forces.


Wow! What an irrelevant revelation! Before you get back to reading The Grand Chessboard, here, again, are-

Victoria Newland boasting the US has spent $5 billion on political subversion in the Ukraine since 1991.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=861DJLR4Cek#t=21    7:26 - 7:48, but for the stench of illegal regime change shit veneered in democratic verbiage, listen to the entire speech.

Victoria Newland now tells Geoffrey Pyatt how the Ukrainians are to independently and democratically, without foreign influence or intervention, organise their politics after their putsch-

Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.

Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of neo-Nazi Svoboda Party] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o

That's a neo-Nazi led putsch made in Washington.

So why isn't this and investigations into its meaning in the front pages and editorials of every paper every day and lead story on the TV news? Everything else is irrelevant. This is the essence of what's going on and what Putin admits to or doesn't in the defence of Russian interests is of an entirely secondary character. Russia did not create this crisis, and is incapable of defending the interests of the working class, Russian or Ukrainian.

Putin is running scared and the working class revolt in the Donbas in an awkward embarrassment to him. He positions himself as a hard man for Russian nationalism but does not want to defend a working class rebellion with revolutionary implications and in a territory which brings him face to face with NATO. NATO are backing Putin into a corner, each way he loses. The only question is, will they give him room to retreat this time, or are they going to force Russia into a war?
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Tippi-Simo

Rep: 53.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I really have no idea wtf is going on..
but I hope that I´m not being killed on 25th of April when I cross the border from Finland to Rodina..

Peace out bros!


"Du talar dalig svenska, men du är bra i sängen"
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Tippi-Simo wrote (View Post):
I really have no idea wtf is going on..
but I hope that I´m not being killed on 25th of April when I cross the border from Finland to Rodina..
Peace out bros!

You know better than other that Russia is very different from what they show in the brainwashing machine Smile.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Thing is that Crimea has already cost Russia USD 7-8blns and that's alot for us, so we really can't afford the SE of Ukraine financially.
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dj

Rep: 157.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Crimea seizure was a shrewd maneuver by Putin well worth the cost.  Now Putin seems to be getting too greedy and is tempted to stomp on Ukraine to get another land grab especially with some loyalists instigating rebellion.  Ukraine unfortunately stands very little chance against the Russian war machine and will get bitch slapped.  I think that is why some Ukrainian forces have "switched sides" allegedly because they know they will get annihilated.

The War Hawk American conservatives are desperate to get involved and that will get dicey.  McCain as usual is the #1 advocate of war and asking American govt to finance the arming of Ukraine.
Thank God McCain or Romney did not get elected President of US because they would have already pushed the Nuke strike button by now.
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