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mooxe

Rep: 175.9
votes: 23


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
From a couple of days ago they started to quote the Den Haage court process regarding Kosovo in Dec 2009 where the US, Germany, British, Austria representatives all said that any part of any country could declare independancy through referendum - we all know what was a court decision that time Smile


I know there's lots of comparing going around. Every one of these situations are very very different though. Most of the foreign intervention in Kosovo came after all the bloodshed of the Balkan wars. From what I can tell Crimea was never headed towards civil war in the first place, so why are all the Russian troops there?
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
That's a nice page about situation in Ukraine http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/27/world/europe/ukraine-divisions-crimea.html?hp&_r=1  


There is a reason the NY Times has lost all respect, as well as readership the last 15 years. They are a schill for liberal policies. They are in the bag for any far left policy known to man and will echo their thoughts.

If Obama speaks it? They will invent facts to represent it.


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dj

Rep: 123.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Here we go again with our Fox News Clone and Obama-bashing.  That's rich you accuse a REAL news outlet of inventing facts when Fox is run by Partisans and contributes their own money to the party.  What the hell does Obama have to do with Ukraine?  I know, when you live in the Republican news media bubble you can't help it.

warm water port in Afghanistan?  Yeah when you are swimming in the soup of Conservative media bubble you have both make-believe facts and geography.

So let me get this straight...if Mitt Romney or McCain was President, Putin would tremble and knees would shake in fear of getting Nuked?  Or we would stay in Iraq and Afganistan for 100 years, then invade Syria and then invade Russia or just drop a nuke.  Insane.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
I know there's lots of comparing going around. Every one of these situations are very very different though. Most of the foreign intervention in Kosovo came after all the bloodshed of the Balkan wars. From what I can tell Crimea was never headed towards civil war in the first place, so why are all the Russian troops there?

once again, in December 2013 or maybe January 2014 the Parliament of the Crimea Autonomy declared that they would declare independancy from Kiev and apply for RF protection in case the radical seized power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo's_declaration_of_independence  
Serbia by initiating proceedings before the ICJ wants to set back the clock, and seeks an advisory opinion that would compel Kosovo to re-engage with Serbia over its status. There is, however, no reason whatever to believe that an agreed outcome would be any more achievable now than it was in the past. The United Kingdom warns about the misleading approach of Serbia, which would like the court to assess the legality of the declaration, ignoring the events that led to it.
Serbia has made it quite clear that it will never accept an independent Kosovo. Kosovo, for its part, has made it quite clear, that, given the legacy of abuse, it cannot again become part of Serbia. Courts do not order estranged spouses to continue in a broken marriage.
Although the Resolution 1244 referred to the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, this principle was not the cornerstone for a political solution of Kosovo's status. The United Kingdom did not come to support independence for Kosovo quickly or easily and does not see these proceedings as adversarial to Serbia. Serbia's democracy is not much older than Kosovo's. Independence of Kosovo brought stability to the region after a traumatic decade. The common future for both Kosovo and Serbia lies in eventual membership for both States in the European Union and the United Kingdom will continue to work towards the realisation of that vision.(
c)Daniel Bethlehem QC, Legal Adviser to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on behalf of the GB.

The United States invites the International Court of Justice to leave the declaration of independence intact as an expression of the will of the people of Kosovo, either by refusing to comment on its legality, or by determining that the international law does not prohibit declarations of independence. The declaration of independence did not violate any principle of territorial integrity because under international law, only states must comply with this principle, and not internal entities.
The Court should not deal with the broader issue of self-determination in international law, or at least it should see Kosovo as a "special case".
There is no contradiction between the peacefully declared Declaration of Independence and international law, including Resolution 1244. Evidence of this is that 9 out of 15 Security Council members that voted for Resolution 1244, later recognised Kosovo as independent.
The Resolution 1244 has not guaranteed the territorial integrity of Serbia, but Yugoslavia, which now does not exist, and that only during the interim period of international administration in Kosovo
(c) Harold Hongju Koh, Legal Adviser, U.S. Department of State on behalf of the USA.

The existence of the state of Kosovo cannot be ignored. Its existence is based on the right of self-determination by the people of Kosovo.
The principle of efficiency, is "the only principle that can be applied in the case of Kosovo, since Kosovo fulfills the elements of statehood and its people, territory and government have nation-building qualities
(c) Susanne Wasum-Rainer, Legal Adviser, Federal Foreign Office on behalf of Germany.

In international law there is no rule that prohibits the declaration of independence, or secession. The declaration was adopted by elected representatives who have expressed the will of the people of Kosovo and international law does not prohibit this.
The only exceptions are Northern Cyprus and Rhodesia; their independence is illegal as it was declared with the use of illegal outside force and by racist minority regimes, respectively
(c)Helmut Tichy, Deputy Legal Adviser, Federal Ministry of European and International Affairs on behalf of Austria.

so please tell me why Crimea populated by the Russian minority that doesn't want to be part of Ukraine has less rights to be independent than Kosovo populated by Albanian minority that didn't want to be part of Serbia?
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I guess the typo mistake on warm water port will be here to stay.. Might as well.. NY Times, or CCS front page news for the next decade...

If Romney, or McCain had been president? Same thing could have been a possibility, granted. The trail of errors leading up to it would not have been.. Slashing of military budgets. Removal of US forces around the globe (portraying weakness). Attempting a "reset" with someone who never wanted it to start with (and both McCain/Palin are on record with this from 2008).

Portraying weakness invites this type of behavior. Yes, it doesn't particularly involve the US, but it eventually could. I understand where Obama is coming from and he is of the total isolationist movement, which also doesn't work and been proven to not work. Nobody ever else is willing to step up to the plate, except for tyrannies.

If the US could conceivably back off entirely, protect Israel and forget Europe, allow them to protect themselves? Isolationism would be great, but threats have a way of growing, expanding, just like they did during the 30's when nobody is willing to confront pure evil.


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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
I keep seeing reports that Putin is saying no Russian troops are in Crimea. These troops we are seeing are local militias. What are they saying about this in Russia Dima?  

today an interesting version appeared that these "polite armed troopers in the Russian camo" could be the EU based PMCs hired by Crimean authorities - we'll see if this version will have any proofs though.
but in case they are really PMCs it appears that Putin was not lying Smile.
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dj

Rep: 123.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Interesting analogy with Kosovo and what we witnessed in the 90's with disentegration of Yugoslavia.  I remember in college in the early 90's speaking with one of my professors about the pending collapse of USSR...and how in some ways I predicted this was going to happen.
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HogansHeros

Rep: 28.5


PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
If Romney, or McCain had been president? Same thing could have been a possibility, granted. The trail of errors leading up to it would not have been.. Slashing of military budgets. Removal of US forces around the globe (portraying weakness). Attempting a "reset" with someone who never wanted it to start with (and both McCain/Palin are on record with this from 2008).

I don't think this is accurate--it is certainly not realpolitik (not that we'll ever actually know how an alternate timeline would turn out). If Romney/McCain is president the Republican congress simply continues to raise the debt ceiling with no conditions?--You must think they really are just playing politics and have no principles--Or the Democratic senate simply folds and allows 100% of cuts to be to discretionary spending and entitlement programs? McCain is president and suddenly the Bush era agreement to withdraw from Iraq is nullified; He keep troops in Iraq without immunity from Iraqi prosecution? Bush looked into the soul of Putin and decided he was a good guy--the type who would vacation with Bush at his ranch. Bush may be a lot of things but "weak" is not an accusation thrown around much--none of that had any deterrent effect once Georgia/South Ossetia/Abkhazia can up.

Were Romney/McCain not going to try to get Russian help with Iran/Syria/any other problem?
Realistically, either hypothetical administration was going to have to attempt a "reset" with Russia because you can't get things done without at least Russia's tacit agreement. They still would have viewed Medvedev as a chance for a more cooperative Russia but, ultimately, Russia would have done what it wanted to in response to developments in Ukraine. Russia knows the west, under any president, isn't going to risk getting into a shooting war with a nuclear armed country over part of Georgia or part of Ukraine--and having more troops hypothetically still in  Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't put America in a stronger position to respond to Russian actions.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Slashing of military budgets. Removal of US forces around the globe (portraying weakness). Attempting a "reset" with someone who never wanted it to start with (and both McCain/Palin are on record with this from 2008).
.

The Iraq 2 war, and Afgan war, does have a bill. The tax payers have to pay for it, or you have to save on something.. The republicans don’t want to pay taxes… And you want even more wars, thus more costs… Who’s gona pay, or on what are you to save?

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Portraying weakness invites this type of behavior. Yes, it doesn't particularly involve the US, but it eventually could. I understand where Obama is coming from and he is of the total isolationist movement,


Hm, the Russian attack on Georgia and anexation of South Ossetia took place when  George W Bush was president…    Isnt that intresting, Russian does that even though a republican president is in power..? And a president who has started 2 wars, thus shown how “strong” he is..

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Portraying weakness invites this type of behavior.


Okay, if thats true, then Russia saw that the republican president George W Bush had made US “weaker” by starting 2 resource draining wars…
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

delete


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MajorFrank

Rep: 41.8
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
I keep seeing reports that Putin is saying no Russian troops are in Crimea. These troops we are seeing are local militias. What are they saying about this in Russia Dima?  

today an interesting version appeared that these "polite armed troopers in the Russian camo" could be the EU based PMCs hired by Crimean authorities - we'll see if this version will have any proofs though.
but in case they are really PMCs it appears that Putin was not lying Smile.


Maybe they are from planet Mars...?  Surprised  Smile
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mooxe

Rep: 175.9
votes: 23


PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:02 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

March 4th - Liveleak video with subtitles of man questioning "Russian" soldiers guarding a base in Simferopol. No insignia visible, no license plates.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=118_1394165011

March 10th - Western Media now reporting that Russia media is claiming Eastern Ukraine has fallen into lawlessness.

March 10th - NATO sending AWACS to monitor situation in Ukraine.


Last edited by mooxe on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 86
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:46 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

I'm guessing the next step will be some "attacks" on innocent Russian citizens by unknown assailants, which will need more Russian troops to "stabilise" the situation. This could lead to a "helpfull" takeover of the area as the Ukrainian authorities have obviously lost control.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

The discussion in the western media revolves entirely around what the Russians are doing in the Crimea, their aims and whether or not they have a “legal” right to do it. This all serves as a diversion from the central question, “what are the US and EU doing in the Ukraine and do they have a right to do it?”

According to Victoria Nuland, US Assistant secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs,“Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government – all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals.”

As is clearly demonstrated in her now infamous leaked discussion with US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, this is a euphemism for installing a US puppet regime in Kiev.

Some of our media feel obliged to acknowledge the existence of the Ukrainian extreme right wing only to make their propaganda line appear balanced and to then relegate this lead element to a "minority" In this way, for example,  UK Channel 4 acknowledges Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok's  "history of anti-Semitic comments," quoting his reference to a “Muscovite-Jewish Mafia”  which allegedly controls Ukraine. This is disingenuous in the extreme. You might well consider such a remark a throwaway by perhaps an unsavoury character. It does not allude to or explain Svoboda's neo-Nazi make up and political program. Allow me to fill in the gaps deliberately left by our "free press".

Oleh Tyahnybok hailed John Demjanjuk, accomplice in the murder of 30 000 people in Sobibor, a hero. His deputy, Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn, founded the “Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center,” a Neo-Nazi think tank. Andriy Parubiy is a founder of this movement. He orchestrated the Right Sector including the UNA-UNSO para-militaries, who, when not dressed and waving swastika like banners in the style of 1930s fascist thugs, provoked pitched battles with the police during the protests. Parubiy is now minister for the armed forces in the Kiev junta.

This movement venerates OUN leader Stepan Bandera a collaborator with the Nazis in their genocide of Ukrainian Jewry. Their stated aim is to end parliament, ban all political parties, liquidate all Russian intellectuals, and members of hostile political parties, ban imports of literature from Russia, clean out the civil service of anyone who won’t implement these policies etc etc etc. This organisation currently has six ministers in the putschist government, not minor positions but posts like education and the military.

The first act of this new “moderate” US-EU backed democratic government was to abolish minority rights in the Ukraine. Russian is no longer an official language in Ukraine. They are planning to revoke laws that criminalise excusing the crimes of fascism.

Had this movement arisen in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or Syria it would have been used as pretext enough for military intervention by the West. As it happens, it’s Russia that wants to remove these made in Washington Neo-Nazis. Instead of articles detailing the threat of fascism in the Ukraine, then, we are treated to the unsavoury sight of cossacks whipping feminist agitators in Moscow. Vile, but why are they not showing us what these Ukrainian fascist thugs are doing and what they represent? This choice of what we are shown can only be deliberate.

The US long ago decided upon the dismemberment of the Soviet Union/ Russian Federation as a geo-political entity capable of challenging its hegemony. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_chessboard.htm
Control of the Ukraine was the strategic aim both of Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler. Further, should Germany, in the guise of the EU, gain control of the Ukraine, it will itself represent a geo-political landmass capable of challenging US hegemony. There is a second tension, then, which threatens to erupt as Germany embarks upon rearmament and an aggressive, military foreign policy it has renounced since 1945.

That there is genuine popular revulsion at the corrupt state of Ukrainian politics and fear of impending economic disaster is undeniable. The US and EU are exploiting this for their own ends, however and the Ukrainian people, East and West, find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Their choice is between one group of corrupt oligarchs leaning on Moscow and another group of no less corrupt oligarchs resting on neo-nazi muscle and the US-EU. Either way, living conditions for the mass of the population are set to crash dive with no hope of recovery. Putrid nationalism and patriotism on both sides offer an outlet for social frustration and fear as they always have, a diversion from a global economic system that promotes social inequality and which is destroying the remnants of democracy it can no longer sustain.

There is no resolution to this crisis in the phoney pretexts presented by any politicians or their media accomplices. The solution lies in the unity of the Russian with Ukrainian working class around an internationalist socialist program against the warmongers of the Kremlin, Washington and Berlin and against all the Ukrainian oligarchs. Clearly, we're a long way from that.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 86
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

sieterayos wrote (View Post):

There is no resolution to this crisis in the phoney pretexts presented by any politicians or their media accomplices. The solution lies in the unity of the Russian with Ukrainian working class around an internationalist socialist program against the warmongers of the Kremlin, Washington and Berlin and against all the Ukrainian oligarchs. Clearly, we're a long way from that.


Clearly, and moving further away from the internationalist socialist "ideal" for about 30 years now. I agree that it cannot be solved through outside interests, but I cant' see an honest open referendum occuring under current conditions either.
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 86
votes: 5


PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:19 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

btw Siet, Sulla is waiting for you..... Wink http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14633
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

Quote:
Oleh Tyahnybok hailed John Demjanjuk, accomplice in the murder of 30 000 people in Sobibor, a hero. His deputy, Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn, founded the “Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center,” a Neo-Nazi think tank. Andriy Parubiy is a founder of this movement. He orchestrated the Right Sector including the UNA-UNSO para-militaries, who, when not dressed and waving swastika like banners in the style of 1930s fascist thugs, provoked pitched battles with the police during the protests. Parubiy is now minister for the armed forces in the Kiev junta.

and today they were legalised as the National Guards...
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dj

Rep: 123.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
btw Siet, Sulla is waiting for you..... Wink http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14633  


Wow I just had a flashback from 10 years ago.  Shocked

You know that really IS Siet when he plants the longest post in the thread.

Ukraine is screwed...they have no money, no jobs, no oil or natural resources ( at least that keeps them safe from potential rise of another war-hawk right wing USA regime ).

So it is true they will be torn like a rag doll between Putin and the "West".  Putin is shrewd and calculating...he knows full well when to exploit a situation for political gain.
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sieterayos

Rep: 13.4


PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

dj wrote (View Post):
pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
btw Siet, Sulla is waiting for you..... Wink http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14633  


Wow I just had a flashback from 10 years ago.  Shocked

You know that really IS Siet when he plants the longest post in the thread.

Ukraine is screwed...they have no money, no jobs, no oil or natural resources ( at least that keeps them safe from potential rise of another war-hawk right wing USA regime ).

So it is true they will be torn like a rag doll between Putin and the "West".  Putin is shrewd and calculating...he knows full well when to exploit a situation for political gain.



And you know it really is deej when he gets all his details wrong yet manages to sound like he knows what's going on.

Ukraine has vast resources, that's why everyone's always wanted to control it. Iron and steel are obvious, still big exports in spite of obsolete technology. Manganese has declined but massive reserves remain. Loss of Ukrainian manganese would have screwed the Nazi war effort, making steel production impossible if the war wasn't over before German reserves were used up. Most of all, Ukraine produces a massive surplus of food, again, a strategic German interest as Europe uses far more food calories than it produces. For the US, it's a great chunk out of the Eurasian land mass. and another gouge out of Russia.

It has escaped deej too, that the worst militarism flows from economic inadequacy, not strength. That's why the US is making wars all over the globe, their economy is screwed and military might is all that's left.... except perhaps the biggest government debt in all human history.

In what way Putin is gaining from this, I just can't imagine. A temporary patriotic surge will give way to unrest as sanctions kick in and/or a shooting war with US backed Ukraine opens up. Nuclear conflagration? That's good for his opinion pol ratings, sure.
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dj

Rep: 123.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: Re: The Ukraine Reply with quote

sieterayos wrote (View Post):
dj wrote (View Post):
pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
btw Siet, Sulla is waiting for you..... Wink http://www.closecombat.org/csoforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14633  


Wow I just had a flashback from 10 years ago.  Shocked

You know that really IS Siet when he plants the longest post in the thread.

Ukraine is screwed...they have no money, no jobs, no oil or natural resources ( at least that keeps them safe from potential rise of another war-hawk right wing USA regime ).

So it is true they will be torn like a rag doll between Putin and the "West".  Putin is shrewd and calculating...he knows full well when to exploit a situation for political gain.



In what way Putin is gaining from this, I just can't imagine. A temporary patriotic surge will give way to unrest as sanctions kick in and/or a shooting war with US backed Ukraine opens up. Nuclear conflagration? That's good for his opinion pol ratings, sure.


Except for those pesky facts like annexing S. Ossetia and now Crimea.  Troops are now amassing along the broader eastern border with Ukraine.  So yeah who knew what Putin could gain from that.

Rolling Eyes
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