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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

There is a conversation going on in the shout box about which Close Combat game after CC5 is worth purchasing.  Since Gateway to Caen will be the last release on the 2d engine, which one do you think is worth buying?  I have played almost all of them very briefly and with exception of the issue of troops not following orders, LSA seems to have the most features.

    Close Combat: Cross of Iron (CC3 rerelease, zero meaningful, noticeable changes from CC3--except a very negative one of units not following orders)
    Close Combat: Modern Tactics (retail release of Close Combat Marines, which is available for free download over at CSO--no real changes from CCM?)
    Close Combat: Wacht am Rhein (CC4 rerelease--no real changes over stock CC4 except for editable forcepools, correct?)
    Close Combat: The Longest Day (CC5 rerelease--newish campaign, new maps, but no real new features?)
    Close Combat: Last Stand Arnhem (CC2 rerelease--stackable BGs in strat map, blowable bridges, anything else?)
    Close Combat: Panthers in the Fog (the first real rework of a CC game; original campaign, new maps, "upgrade" to 32-bit graphics [it does look a bit better], removal of reinforcement through stackable BGs feature introduced in LSA [but inclusion of rest/refit], mutliplayer is restricted to a unreliable in-game lobby]
    Close Combat: Gateway to Caen (being released in on 6/6/2014 on Steam; I imagine it will be very much like Panthers in the Fog with a new campaign)


I mainly ask because I've done some work on a Battle of Berlin mod working off of Sapa's Battle of Berlin CC5 mod--so far I've only made graphical and small data changes to the CC5 files but would do a full facelift for a release. LSA seems the most intriguing because I prefer to augment a BG with forces from another BG (as opposed to PTIF's rest/refit option), don't like the idea of being restricted to an in-game lobby, and it'd be intriguing to see if the blow able bridge capability could be used.  Please correct me wherever I am missing a major plus/con of a release--again, I didn't play them all thoroughly.


Last edited by Troger on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vobbnobb

Rep: 67.5
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Troger wrote (View Post):
I have played almost all of them very briefly and with exception of the issue of troops not following orders


The troops not following orders, acting by themselves going berserk etc is not a bug. It's greenhorns/recruits with low morale or experience
(a lot of of them were immature kids out of high school fighting in ww2). Each battle you can build your teams into vets by winning battles. PITF does this wonderfully along with the other games. Vets were hardened and used to death in war they didn't break down as much as recruits.


My WW2 CC Series TimeLine
http://tinyurl.com/n2vrec5


Last edited by vobbnobb on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vobbnobb

Rep: 67.5
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

deleted


My WW2 CC Series TimeLine
http://tinyurl.com/n2vrec5
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

vobbnobb wrote (View Post):

The troops not following orders, acting by themselves going berserk etc is not a bug.


I'm not talking about physiological changes--that's all good.  I'm talking about the cancellation of movement orders due to "enemy spotted", "enemy spotted", "enemy spotted", "redeployment aborted by attack", "enemy spotted" (repeat ad nauseum).  That was wasn't the case or a problem in CC3-5, but it's a very noticeable part of all the releases since CC5 (PTIF seems a bit better, but I haven't played enough yet).
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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 94.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

LSA is your best bet to port an older CC5 mod. Stackable BG's is the best feature to have in a campaign. It also has a modified points system for requisition.
PitF has better unit spotting with the fading map symbol, and better mortar targetting, but the change of scale will create too much re-work.
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DoktorPaj

Rep: 28.4


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Like pvt_Grunt said, LSA has more good features than the WAR or TLD, and the Force pools are easier to edit too from what I remember from messing around with them.
The order canceling is still there though, but I find that that is consistent for both LSA, TLD WAR and COI. I find this to be especially annoying when using infantry AT weapons against tanks, which I would guess is going to be very annoying in the Battle of Berlin since the Germans rely much on the AT capability of infantry. Ambushes are fairly good, but using a squad to charge a tank is useless.
Bridge blowing is a cool/useful feature but I don't know if anyone has been able to edit that. BG stacking is the greatest thing about LSA, since it allows BGs to be replaced for resting without loosing the map and also lets you use static BGs or merge BGs.

I have little experience with PITF because I stopped playing it because of the change in scale/viewing distance and some framerate problems  (most likely for me using weak hardware, not PITF related but still a problem).
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vobbnobb

Rep: 67.5
votes: 6


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

DoktorPaj wrote (View Post):
using a squad to charge a tank is useless.
.


Right, infantry vs armor on an open road bad idea. So make cover.. Get a mortar team real close to the tank to provide precision smoke around the tank, no tank crewman can see with 5-10 smoke rounds pluming off around the tank
Move up an engineer team or bazooka team on the rear of the tank with throw-able tnt, AT grenades or another AT bomb team depending on the game.
Most infantry successful tank kills are done while ambushing in cover. The squad will basically break up close to the tank individually, they will use the smoke cover to take out the armor. You will have to move quick as smoke will disappear. I won't say this will totally work but should damage it badly. If tank is still up and your mortar team has HE mortars left sneak AT team back and use mortars, since most armor have weak tops. Did this once to a stuG.


My WW2 CC Series TimeLine
http://tinyurl.com/n2vrec5
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platoon_michael

Rep: 47.6
votes: 25


PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

I've been Beta testing GWTC and I'd have to say its the best so far
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 8.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):

I've been Beta testing GWTC and I'd have to say its the best so far


You tease
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

DoktorPaj wrote (View Post):
The order canceling is still there though, but I find that that is consistent for both LSA, TLD WAR and COI. I find this to be especially annoying when using infantry AT weapons against tanks, which I would guess is going to be very annoying in the Battle of Berlin since the Germans rely much on the AT capability of infantry. Ambushes are fairly good, but using a squad to charge a tank is useless.


That's a very good point.  I did some tests with LSA to determine whether the infantry assault capabilities are good enough and I think it can work, with the right settings.  Have you tried playing with "always obey orders" on?  I've tried a couple times and noticed that in LSA the unit will only cancel the order if the leader of the squad is killed, which is acceptable but not ideal--also, when "always obey orders" is on, the "enemy spotted" notices decline sharply.  Without "always obey orders" on, it's a bit unplayable.

One thing I need to figure out in the data is how to get the troops to engage with their AT weapon immediately upon coming within range.  I find the troops will expend their grenades on tank first before finally using their panzerfaust.  My only solution for it was to assign an extra soldier in the group who just has a panzerfaust.  In the CC5 Battle of Berlin mod, infantry would use their panzerfausts on infantry as quickly as they used their grenades (probably somewhat realistic, but problematic when the panzerfausts need to be saved for enemy tanks).

DoktorPaj wrote (View Post):
Bridge blowing is a cool/useful feature but I don't know if anyone has been able to edit that.


Ah, I think I remember hearing that it's not editable.  I guess there are a lot of implications to using a feature like that, so it probably would be too much of a hassle even if it were editable.

vobbnobb wrote (View Post):

Right, infantry vs armor on an open road bad idea. So make cover.. Get a mortar team real close to the tank to provide precision smoke around the tank, no tank crewman can see with 5-10 smoke rounds pluming off around the tank
Move up an engineer team or bazooka team on the rear of the tank with throw-able tnt, AT grenades or another AT bomb team depending on the game.
Most infantry successful tank kills are done while ambushing in cover. The squad will basically break up close to the tank individually, they will use the smoke cover to take out the armor. You will have to move quick as smoke will disappear. I won't say this will totally work but should damage it badly. If tank is still up and your mortar team has HE mortars left sneak AT team back and use mortars, since most armor have weak tops. Did this once to a stuG.


That's idealistic and assumes you have the necessary forces and terrain.  And I think even with smoke around, the units would still cancel the order.   I loaded up LSA to do a quick test and within 20 seconds of the battle my units were hollering "enemy spotted" nonstop and cancelling orders when they weren't even being attacked (the enemy was over 200 meters away and without LOS on them). Did you play CC3-CC5?  There wasn't an issue like this in those games.  I think the request has always been a pretty simple one: keep it the way it was in those games (it wasn't broken to begin with).  

platoon_michael wrote (View Post):
I've been Beta testing GWTC and I'd have to say its the best so far


I'm looking forward to Gateway to Caen but I figure it will follow PTIF's footsteps regarding the in-game lobby, odd/restrictive forcepool management, and removal of BG reinforcement option--these would be deal-breakers for me when it comes to determining which CC to port the mod to.  

I did see some promising things regarding infantry assault in that youtube video uploaded by Cathartes. And infantry team assaulted a tank right in the middle of open road and destroyed it with a panzerfaust (eat your heart out vobbnobb!  Razz) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jELNmnjbc4w
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vobbnobb

Rep: 67.5
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

^ Tank deserved it. that wouldn't have happened if the tank was in ambush mode and probably greenhorns again

2nd You need to send in anti AT teams (troops) ahead of your tanks to check buildings along the road. use smoke or infantry fire from the fields even tanks HE at buildings would have prevented that. Never advance tanks first or the tanks get it.. ESPECIALLY NEAR BUILDINGS. Cathartes prob just made this for the video but he knows better tactics.


My WW2 CC Series TimeLine
http://tinyurl.com/n2vrec5


Last edited by vobbnobb on Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

vobbnobb wrote (View Post):
2nd You need to send in anti AT teams (troops) ahead of your tanks to check buildings along the road. Never advance tanks first or the tanks get it.. ESPECIALLY NEAR BUILDINGS. Cathartes prob just made this for the video but he knows better tactics.


Shhhhh, don't tell anybody, your ruining it for my AT teams.  Smile  

There's nothing more gratifying in CC then brewing up a tank with infantry.
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vobbnobb

Rep: 67.5
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Well panzerschrek would be gold to you then, nail tank from far away before AT teams even make it in searching for you Very Happy


My WW2 CC Series TimeLine
http://tinyurl.com/n2vrec5
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Troger

Rep: 17.5
votes: 2


PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

pvt_Grunt wrote (View Post):
LSA is your best bet to port an older CC5 mod. Stackable BG's is the best feature to have in a campaign. It also has a modified points system for requisition.


I agree, though I was thinking about trying to subvert the point system by simply giving each unit a value of 1 and giving a insanely high number of points (per day? haven't seen how it's actually all coded in the backend).

vobbnobb wrote:
Well panzerschrek would be gold to you then, nail tank from far away before AT teams even make it in searching for you


You never answered which CC release since CC5 you think is best.  If you had to only one to purchase, which would it be?  You can wait till Friday/Saturday when Gateway to Caen is released to answer. Smile
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Pzt_Kami

Rep: 44.2


PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

I found LSA to be the best CC so far. looking forward to new 3d Close Combat which will come soon
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DoktorPaj

Rep: 28.4


PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Troger wrote (View Post):
DoktorPaj wrote (View Post):
The order canceling is still there though, but I find that that is consistent for both LSA, TLD WAR and COI. I find this to be especially annoying when using infantry AT weapons against tanks, which I would guess is going to be very annoying in the Battle of Berlin since the Germans rely much on the AT capability of infantry. Ambushes are fairly good, but using a squad to charge a tank is useless.


That's a very good point.  I did some tests with LSA to determine whether the infantry assault capabilities are good enough and I think it can work, with the right settings.  Have you tried playing with "always obey orders" on?  I've tried a couple times and noticed that in LSA the unit will only cancel the order if the leader of the squad is killed, which is acceptable but not ideal--also, when "always obey orders" is on, the "enemy spotted" notices decline sharply.  Without "always obey orders" on, it's a bit unplayable.


I haven't tried "always obey orders" yet in LSA, actually. Doesn't that reduce suppression in general, making my troops overpowered? Anyway I will give it a try.
Since I went back to CC5 and Karelia2 I've started to use the "always obey orders" function  as well as the "never act on initiative" for the Russian troops, it sort of made them more offensive in the way that they wouldn't stop and crawl away when under fire. It sort of gives the impression of a human wave attack, making them very dangerous in close quarter fighting.

I also have the issue with troops wasting panzerfausts on infantry there, I couldn't come up with another fix than to give the soldier with the panzerfaust two of them and a fairly long reload time, so that he'll hopefully have one left after engaging infantry.
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 8.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

For the Pzfaust issue, try giving it a blast size area of 0, and make sure primary and secondary target are vehicles, I think is 1 and 2.

They will still use it occasionally but less frequent. CC2 is the only cc in that the pzfaust are used against vehicles, I copied its data and found the blast area was 0 but still infantry in CC5 keep using them against other infantry just not everytime.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Kanov,

blast rating has no effect on weapon usage Smile
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Nomada_Firefox

Rep: 32.9
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Close Combat Gatheway to Caen would be the best if the debriefing and other screens were better made and the maps had not been made with 16bits at first place, clearly it happened, specially if you compare it with the maps from Panthers in the Fog.

At other way, the strategic map from Gatheway to Caen is probably the best because it is not too big and you can find the troops easier. Of course, I have not counted more of 29 maps, it is not a size bigger than the original Close Combat II.

Close Combat Last Stand Arhem was good, it has good screens and more but at my opinion it was overloaded, the strategic map was too big, too maps, too big maps, there was not sense at most of these additions, for me, they were poor additions added, if it had been made with the additions from PTIF, it had been the best.
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 8.1
votes: 9


PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Best Close Combat after CC5? Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Kanov,

blast rating has no effect on weapon usage Smile


It is my impression that it does.
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