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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Bungarra wrote (View Post):
At CREULEY the advance was held up for several hours by two Tigers which had concealed themselves in a wood. Three Shermans were knocked out one after the other attempting to get forward and this advance was not continued until a Sherman with a 17 pounder was brought up.

And....


The Report ends there. And can someone check the report. I mean the digital picture. This part is on page 3. I keyed in CREULEY, and the objective on the report may be different. It was hard for me to read the letters.

I have checked it again myself, and it now looks like CREULXX, but it should be CHEUX? Use the page 3 link I have provided.

@Dima:  Arrow  Bad Dima! Go back to your cage.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Here are two sources that may indicate the potential strenth of the 141 RAC at the time of the D-DAY Landings.

Authorized Organization 141 RAC
141 RAC War Diary - Return of Officers

From the Authorized Organiztion, the 141 RAC would need 17 officers per battalion but NOT assigned to the battalion's 3 squardons.

Each squadron requires 3 officers + 1 officer per troop of 3 tanks.

The Return of Officers dated June 3, 1944 lists 49 officers at or above the rank of 2nd Lieutenant.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141 RAC War Diary - Report on Crocodiles (page 1)
141 RAC War Diary - Report on Crocodiles (page 2)

This portion of the report (page 1) details the action from June 6-14, 1944. By this time, while suffering few personnel casualties, 5 of 6 Mk VII tanks had been lost and only one fuel trailer was listed as serviceable, but with a broken trailer link.  Arrow

The following information was obtained from Capt. Barbor and Lieut Shearman, both of "C" Sqn 141 RAC :-

1. The CROCODILES landed at H plus 45 mins on D Day. Three were lost in landing in too deep water and one went into a water filled shell hole. The first objective Pt 44 (9185) was attacked by the remaining two CROCODILES AND ACHIEVED BY USING 2 RDS 75 MM AND BESA. They then supported the inf (7 Green Howards) down the axis of adv for the remainder of that day. No flame was used at all. Having left the inf they closed lagered 1 kilometre south of CREPON. Next morning they were fired on by a cleverly concealed battery behind our lines. THE CROCODILES went into action with 75 mm and flame. Approximately 150 Germans surrendered immediately on sight of flame.

Harbored for 2 days with the Westminster Dragoons at BRECY 8778. From there they sere sent to join 231 Bde of 50 Div. They supported the Hampshires in clearing a thickly wooded area (7570) down to Main rd 7569. The Inf wanted them to stay in the wood for the night. They objected and were eventually allowed to go back. The reached X rds (7772) when they receive an urgent order to drop trailers and go to X rds (7669) where the Devons were being attacked by enemy armour. This they did and attacked the village LA BELLE EPINE at 2210 hrs on 11 Jun using 75 mm and BESA on the houses. This was successful and the inf reentered and took possession. Action closed at 0030 hrs and crews returned North to refuel. In the middle of refueling they were recalled to the X rds (7669) owing to the possibility of a dawn attack by enemy armour.

They remained on patrol in that area all day, the trailers were put on again that afternoon but action was not joined. That night 12 Jun the CROCODILE crews were relieved by Lt Davies and crews who were from the CROCODILES lost on the beaches. They patrolled the same area during the 13 Jun.

On the 14 they took part in an attack on the village of BEENIERES BOCAGE (7970) to which the enemy had infiltrated. (There were now three CROCODILES one having being salvaged). The action was successful and they advanced down the main road to X rds (7868) using a small quantity of flame. They were then fired on by German armour. One CROCODILE was completely wrecked having its turret blown off and caught fire. This was due to a penetration on the thickest armour on the fromt to the right of the driver. The other two lost their trailers and sustanied some damage to trucks and turret. On Panzer KWV was knocked out by 75mm fire.

2. CASUALATIES - personnel:-

1 missing on beach
1 killed )
2 wounded) from burnt out tank.
2 missing)

tanks

3 in sea (under salvage)
1 burnt out
1 hit on turret - extent of damage not yeat ascertained.

Trailer serviceable

1 serviceable but trailer link broken.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141 RAC War Diary - Use of Crocodiles
Churchill Crocodile

It is clear that the trailors must be kept well back when not in action or committed to action. It is also clear that no pressuring up should be done until we are committed to action. (This takes 30 mins.) -H.Waddell, Lt-Col. Commanding, 141 RAC (The Buffs)

The pressure required had to be primed on the trailer by the crew as close to use as feasible, because pressure could not be maintained for very long. The fuel was used at 4 gallons per second; refuelling took at least 90 minutes and pressurization around 15 minutes. -Wiki


My comments:  Arrow

1. The trailers must be kept back lest they get picked off when they are being refueled and pressurized.

2. The whole presurrized [flamthrower] fuel system is riddled with leaks, and was expected to take 15 minutes, but now takes 30 minutes, and it is affecting the operational range of Crocodile attacks in a most negative way.

3. Lieut. (now Capt.) Shearman's idea to keep the Crocodiles pressured up for 48 hours with NO specific target is just NOT possible, because of the wasted nitrogen required to do this, and now the old man doesn't like that idea anymore.


Last edited by Stwa on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Use of Crocodiles (page 2)

4. Emphasys.

(a) Crocodiles must get to 80 yds without fighting our way if possible.

(b) Range of flame 60 to 80 yds.

(c) Trailer very vulnerable to all enemy weapons.

(d) Manouvre very difficult, particularly when backing.

(e) Arc of flame only 11 to 2 o'clock from front of tk. Cannot flame to side. Target must be in front.

(f) One Crocodile Sqn can only be divided once effectively. (a) Sqn Ocmd and RO (or LO) and 3 Tps. (b) Sqn 2IC and LO (or RO) and 2 Tps. It will operate to best advantage as one unit of a whole sqn.

(g) Crocodiles should not be launched against enemy armour.

(h) They are not anti-tk guns.

(i) They are not defensive weapons.

(j) On consolidation should be reasonably clear of enemy mortars and arty fire (can give sp, until releasaed, from behind our Inf positions.)



My comments:  Arrow

1. From the same report "Use of Crocodiles" (see previous post), Lt. Col. Wadelell reports July 15, 1944.

2. Note the range of flame given as 60 to 80 yards. I do not believe the 60 yard estimate to be due to a complete drop in pressure of the fuel trailers.

3. Several battle reports which I may cite in a later post, describe what happens when there is little or no pressure left in the system, and the range is much less than 60 yards.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141 RAC War Diary - Use of Crocodile (page 1)

Going forward, I do intend to identify what tanks the 141 RAC had at its disposal during Operation Epsom. As with all TOEs the task is made difficult since any TOE represents a single moment in time.

But for now, I would like to spend two more posts regarding the "Use of Crocodile" report. These reports were generally TOP SECRET, as they normally tend to describe the problems (and suggestions to those problems), that the weapon system has encountering in the field.  Arrow

(2) Recently we have done much better as our insistence on certain points have been granted, o.g.

(a) NOT one tp only but a half Sqn at least for any action.
(b) Inf must follow up closely and go through flame, which will not hurt them.
(c) Better results can be expected when we can get rehearsales with Inf and when we can operate as a whole Sqn.
(d) The plan should be based on flame and be made by ourselves and the Inf with Arty and RAC in sp.

(3) With three Sqns up in the line [each assigned to a different Corps] virtually all the time we are having a steady drain of casualties which recently average about 5-7 daily or over a hundred a month, and we are continually in demand and always allocated.

(4) It is strongly urged that we get some more rfts to train, including some good young Cpls and L/cpls.

It is clear that our role involves assualt to 10X of the objective and that unfortunately all enemy A Tk wpns including the 37mm and Bazookas penetrate virtually all parts of the tk at those ranges. Each hit appears to carry a very high and instantaneous fire risk and with the F.T.F chances of escape are proving abnormally slight. It is almost one hit - one crew.


My comments:  Arrow

1. There are two dates on this report; July 15, 1944, but more likely July 20, 1944, which is also indicated.

2. The author of this document seems to suggests that the 141 RAC, up to now, cannot make Squadron sized attacks. Either this is a tank or trailer issue, or an issue with planning, or a manpower issue. There may be plenty of officers (see "Return of Officers") from a previous post. He also suggests that 141 RAC plan the attacks, which seems reasonable.

3. Fuel trailer leakage is not mentioned in this report, but has already been indicated to Command in last month's report. In any event, immagine the difficulty a leaking fuel trailer would impose on all of the enumerated actions required to launch and coordinate a Crocodile assault.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141 RAC War Diary - Use of Crocodile (page 1)
Churchill Crocodile

It is clear that our role involves assualt to 10X of the objective and that unfortunately all enemy A Tk wpns including the 37mm and Bazookas penetrate virtually all parts of the tk at those ranges. Each hit appears to carry a very high and instantaneous fire risk and with the F.T.F chances of escape are proving abnormally slight. It is almost one hit - one crew. -H.Waddell, Lt-Col. Commanding, 141 RAC (The Buffs)

...The Crocodile was a specialised weapon limited by the short range of its flamethrower. -wiki

My comments:  Arrow

1. It was this last statment, posted way back on page 2 of this thread, that brought the game makers and spammers (they know who they are) out of the woodwork. Everyone entered the posting fray to defend the "long" range of the Churchill Crocodile flame device.

2. Lt. Col. Waddell understands that all flame devices are short range, including the Crocodile. The Uppers that will receive the "Use of Crocodiles" report understand that as well. The report is just reminding all that read the report, that to maintain a weapon of Horror (read as Terror if you like) in the field, it may prove to be costly to Great Britain in tanks and men.

3. In WW2, ANY weapon system could be described as "limited" if it was forced to advance to a range so near the enemy, that the death of the system (Churchill Crocodile) and it's crew could be regarded as a certainty.
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papa_whisky

Rep: 42.2
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa and Dima I think you should take your debate to another thread you killed this one.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

papa_whisky wrote (View Post):
Stwa and Dima I think you should take your debate to another thread you killed this one.


NO WAIT  Exclamation

Someone has already started a new GWTC First Impressions Thread here.  Arrow

Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS
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Sapa

Rep: 75.3
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

meanwhile..the old dinosaur makes his first impression...

*the mortars still hits all the time (even with new fantastic Graphics)*

*tank pathing works better (why shoulnd it after the the disaster in Roads to Arnhem!?)*

*the AI feels better (probably because of the the smaller maps, what a surprise!)*

i am old and learnd from my mother not to raise my voice..but...*

[size=18]AFTER Roads to Arnhem and Panthers in the fog...DIDNT YOU SEE THE RUNNING GIRLS AND STILL THEY ARE IN GAME AFTER GAME AFTER GAME.....[/size]

Whats the use of beta testing, beacuse i thought someone would have an opinion! and this time there was even modmakers of the CC Community MAKING the game!!

It is really sad Crying or Very sad

Mats
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jacquesboot

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Returned to CC after years away; stopped playing at Battle of the Bulge edition because of the terrible bugs (mostly line of sight and pathfinding).

Coming back after a long break first impressions after a campaign as the Germans

Explosions effects great. Love the idea of mortars being able to reuse "zeroed in" target areas; nice touch. Infantry combat is as good as it ever was.

The not so hot:
Mortars still too accurate when they fire blind, (nor friendly troops to spot for them... that would be at least one good reason to be accurate).
6 Pdr AT seems to stay invisible after firing a lot of shots off, sat in a field with German troops less than 100 metres away, only supressing area fire and a costly infantry charge to less than 40 metres revealled it.  
Some line of sight bugs; Can't recall the map but I had PZIV being shot at by a Cromwell with only a small hedgerow between them, no smoke or anything else in the way but the PZIV couldn't "see" to shoot back. Similar happened to some infantry who couldn't see the Sherman shooting at them from other side of a hedgerow. Yes I know there are often tiny gaps where line of sight is possible but Ive played these games a lot and it isn't those.

Path finding is worse than CCIII . Several times vehicles ordered to drive along a lane next to a hedge row managed to veer off into the hedge and get tracked for no apparent reason, (it wasnt under fire or anything like that).
(Is it just coincidence but I've never noticed AI vehicles getting tracked when crossing hedges etc... I hardly dare drive a Tiger through anything more than grass or roads).
Path finding seems to be worse for halftracks or that's been my experience so far. In one instance a 251/1 was ordered across an open field but instead it headed for the nearest hedgerow which was no where near it or the destination. Micro managing their path finding is too distracting ...
Infantry are doing similar things now and then but not so badly. EG retreating them out of a hedge row because they're under fire; instead of withdrawing they insist on a random crawl along the line of the hedge row until they're wiped out. I know it's programmed so infantry seek out cover but there is a limit... or should be.

The strategy feature that I can't get my head around; why the AI is able to secure a victory even when its morale breaks and I still have a force left that can wipe it out or at least force it into retreat. It's a big get out of jail free card for the AI which makes no logical sense. On one battle I was attacking, had taken one victory location, then the AI threw in an early counter attack, which was fought out until their morale caved in. It had a few battered infantry units left and one Sherman. I still had 3 PZIVs and most of my infantry. If the AI had not thrown in the towel I would (like to think) that the Germans could at least have taken the major objectives on the map in good time. If a force has its morale broken, even it is sitting on most of the objectives then surely it isn't in condition to resist the enemy and would have to give up ground?

Ref: the Super Crocodile. For some reason it has massively thicker armour in the Vehicles.txt file compared to the other Churchill models; I haven't read anywhere that it isn't just a converted Mk VII, nothing about thicker armour.
They have one parked outside the D-Day museum in Portsmouth (UK) and another at the Tank Museum in Bovington Smile

Vehicles.txt file also reveals that the Cromwell is too slow compared to other tanks speed figures; the Tiger has some part of the frontal armour which is very weak (but only one area, anyone figure why that is?).

Good point made about why no MP44?

Oh one final whinge (for now) ... Panzerfausts, the scourge of Allied armour in the Bocage, are proving pretty much as useful as water pistols; maybe they can be used to rust the Royal Tank Regiment to oblivion. They packed a punch in CCIII. Apart from when they're in solid cover in L2 or higher buildings, German infantry seem happy to get shot to bits rather than think about using them.

The AI seems to be having even less luck with the PIAT against German tanks, but I've not played the British yet. I'm not expecting to fare any better.


Apologies if these items are mentioned/explained ad infinitum elsewhere but I don't have the time to search everything on here.
none of the above is a show stopper, just niggles which I thought may have been corrected.
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leviath

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

You might want to post about those armors bugs and stuff on the steam forum of the game or the official forum. It looks like the devs need to look into it because it is quite strange.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Quote:
Ref: the Super Crocodile. For some reason it has massively thicker armour in the Vehicles.txt file compared to the other Churchill models; I haven't read anywhere that it isn't just a converted Mk VII, nothing about thicker armour.
They have one parked outside the D-Day museum in Portsmouth (UK) and another at the Tank Museum in Bovington Smile

Mk VII had a thicker armor than the other marks before Wink
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Stwa

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:11 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Hey Mats,

We should ask them if they can't put a switch in the ini file for Girls On/Girls OFF.  Idea  Laughing

et All,

Yes the Mk VII Church had more armor, which also contributed to its low speed. Since, they never upgraded its engine throughout the series. It also did its part to make the Crocodiles a certain death trap for it's crews. See posts above.

The Brits were not into the mobility thing.
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jacquesboot

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):

Mk VII had a thicker armor than the other marks before Wink

Yes that's right. In the vehicles.txt file the MKVII has thicker armour, but also in that file the Crocodile has even thicker armour than the MKVII.

Stwa wrote (View Post):

The Brits were not into the mobility thing


The Cromwell and Crusader marks were big on mobility at the expense of armour, and certainly in the latter case, reliability. For some reason a decent all round medium tank seemed to elude British tank designers until the very end of the war; the Comet, but that's about it. They seemed fixated on either well armoured but slow infantry tanks or fast and fragile "cruisers".
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Dima

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

jacquesboot wrote (View Post):
Dima wrote (View Post):

Mk VII had a thicker armor than the other marks before Wink

Yes that's right. In the vehicles.txt file the MKVII has thicker armour, but also in that file the Crocodile has even thicker armour than the MKVII.

oh I see, another mistake then or an interpretation of facts Smile.
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