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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

you are probably joking as your attachment shows Crocodile = Churchill VII with Crocodile flamethrower installed. -dima

So you just want to continue spamming. OK fine.  Razz

Wiki is a good source me thinks. You can find lots of great info on weapon systems there.

Dima + imaginary library of books is hard to access, is always suspect, and is surly.  Laughing

But this is part of the central problem in the real literature. It says Crocodile, but if the associated units (tank, trailer) are taken apart, then what do you have? Is the fuel trailer itself refered to as a Crocodile. And they are FIELD kits after all.

Perhaps you are forgetting the fuel trailer can be jettisoned from inside the tank. So when that happens, it is no longer a Crocodile, right?

So me thinks, this is what Crocodle means in the tank list on the document:  Arrow

"We have a dozen Mk VIIs and we have 1 or 2 fuel trailers (that don't work BTW), so POTENTIALLY, all of our Mk VIIs could be Crocodiles." ... just NOT at the same time.  Laughing

BTW, most of Hobat's Funnies are also listed in this document.  Arrow  Churchill Tank


Last edited by Stwa on Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
you are probably joking as your attachment shows Crocodile = Churchill VII with Crocodile flamethrower installed. -dima
So you just want to continue spamming. Ok fine.  :lol
Wiki is a good source me thinks. You can find lots of great info on weapon systems there.
Dima+books is hard to access, it's always suspect, and is surly.  Laughing
But this is part of the central problem in the literature. It says Crocodile, but if the associated units (tank, trailer) are taken apart, then what do you have? Is the fuel trailer itself refered to as a Crocodile. And they are FIELD kits after all.
And you are forgetting the fuel trailer can be jettisoned from inside the tank. So when that happens, it is no longer a Crocodile, right?
So me thinks, this is what it means:  Arrow
"We have a dozen Mk VIIs and we have 1 or 2 fuel trailers (that don't work BTW), so POTENTIALLY, all of our Mk VIIs could be Crocodiles." ... just NOT at the same time.  Laughing

yeye Smile
Date: Night 26/27 June
Place: St.Mauvieu.
Approx number of flame shots: Considerable amount.
HE, AP and BESA also used in large quantities.
Casualties:
Tanks: 3 Mk VII - 2 with broken tracks, 1 - overturned. All 3 recovered.
Trailors: Nil.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Come on Dima, without a link, maybe its just more spam.  Laughing

An my understanding is the Flame Projector REPLACES the BESA MG. So your scribbling looks suspect already.  Laughing

But see how your own BS does not mention Crocodile, but rather "tanks and [fuel] trailors".  Idea
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

And while you are "at" it. Maybe you wouldn't mind looking into your magical libarary of books ...

... And answer me these questions three, if the other side you wish to see.

What is your name? [Dima of CCS]

What is your quest? [To mess with Stwa]

What is the operational range of a fully loaded Churchill Crocodile? [I don't know that!] [AAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEE!]  Laughing
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
And, since the pressurized trailer only lasts for 30 minutes, the effective "combat range" of this urban legend would be 5 miles maximum. What a joke.
 
Oh-ho really what a joke Smile
Ok, the report on July 30th says they need to pressure up the trailers before comitting to action and it takes 30 mins Wink.
strange that it developed in "since the pressurized trailer only lasts for 30 minutes"....


OK, here it is again.  Arrow

Other sources state the Crocodiles first entered combat on June 20th. According to Nigel Duncan in 79th Armoured Division, the flamethrowers did take part in the Normandy landings but initially had little success until it was understood that the trailers should not pressure up earlier than 30 minutes prior to an attack due to the leakage that occurred under the pressurized system. -WW2HQ

Churchill Crocodile Flame-Thrower

This tells me, that once pressurized, the Crocodile had 30 minutes to make it's attack before the pressure in the fuel trailer fizzed away.  Laughing

So, it's maximum speed is under 10 mph, so a maximum operational range of 5 miles.  Shocked
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Dima

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votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Quote:
Come on Dima, without a link, maybe its just more spam.
 
told you - that's from War Diary of 141RAC in Normandy - you can check that out yourself Wink.

Quote:
Other sources state the Crocodiles first entered combat on June 20th. According to Nigel Duncan in 79th Armoured Division, the flamethrowers did take part in the Normandy landings but initially had little success until it was understood that the trailers should not pressure up earlier than 30 minutes prior to an attack due to the leakage that occurred under the pressurized system. -WW2HQ

first 2 Crocs entered combat on June 6th and first combat using Croc's flamethrowers appeared on June 7th.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Quote:
This tells me, that once pressurized, the Crocodile had 30 minutes to make it's attack before the pressure in the fuel trailer fizzed away.

no, that means that after 30 mins the pressure will be not at full to fire at 80yds.
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
What is the operational range of a fully loaded Churchill Crocodile? [I don't know that!] [AAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEE!]  Laughing


Stwa wrote (View Post):
So, it's maximum speed is under 10 mph, so a maximum operational range of 5 miles.  Shocked


Regards to the alleged "5 miles operation range", that range wouldn’t be a problem, considering how flame tanks were used and against what.

Are flame tanks not called in to be used against fortifications, or enemy in very strong positions where other units already has failed or are expected to fail. No?
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Stwa

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
The Operation Epsom Order of Battle states 2 troops (141st RAC) to one (or perhaps two) brigaded regiments it the 15th Scottish Division. I take 2 troops to be 6 tanks?

your link actually states 2 squadrons not troops but that's a mistake Smile.


Uh Huh  Exclamation [impersonating Barney the Purple Dinosaur]

It says "TWO TROOPS".

Ok, because I like you so much, I am going to put up several pictures that may help you to navigate articles, and footnotes when you are using the Wiki.  Idea

Basically,

When you see a footnote in the main body of the article text, you can mouse over that footnote. When you do that, the system usually underlines the footnote, which means it's a link.

Then, you can click the footnote using your mouse, and the system will take you to the text of the footnote itsef. (usually at the bottom of the article)
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Regards to the alleged "5 miles operation range", that range wouldn’t be a problem, considering how flame tanks were used and against what. Are flame tanks not called in to be used against fortifications, or enemy in very strong positions where other units already has failed or are expected to fail. No? -Stalky

In the circumstances you enumerated, then yes, the 5 miles might not be an issue.

But be aware, that while the beast is traversing these 5 miles the pressure in the fuel trailer is fizzing away into the atmosphere.  Laughing
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Nomada_Firefox

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votes: 9


PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Is the screenshot from CCMT? I started a WWII mod at this but I do not remember because I have not finished it......I should check my files.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:30 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Hey Firefox,

Good to see you! Hit back arrow a few times if you need to find the outer space mods.  Idea
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
Dima wrote (View Post):
Quote:
The Operation Epsom Order of Battle states 2 troops (141st RAC) to one (or perhaps two) brigaded regiments it the 15th Scottish Division. I take 2 troops to be 6 tanks?

your link actually states 2 squadrons not troops but that's a mistake Smile.

Uh Huh  Exclamation [impersonating Barney the Purple Dinosaur]
It says "TWO TROOPS".
Ok, because I like you so much, I am going to put up several pictures that may help you to navigate articles, and footnotes when you are using the Wiki.  Idea
Basically,
When you see a footnote in the main body of the article text, you can mouse over that footnote. When you do that, the system usually underlines the footnote, which means it's a link.
Then, you can click the footnote using your mouse, and the system will take you to the text of the footnote itsef. (usually at the bottom of the article)

If you scroll the list down to 31st Tk Bde you would see some more Crocs there - so how many troops in a total for support of 8th Corps?

Quote:
In the circumstances you enumerated, then yes, the 5 miles might not be an issue.
But be aware, that while the beast is traversing these 5 miles the pressure in the fuel trailer is fizzing away into the atmosphere.
 
that's alright as after 30mins they will be able to fire at 60yds instead of 80 (if they were not lucky).
but that's alright for WW2 tank flamethrowers and was quite the same for the Germans and Soviet flame tanks.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

If you scroll the list down to 31st Tk Bde you would see some more Crocs there - so how many troops in a total for support of 8th Corps? -Dima

You are getting desperate Dima. (Dima the desperado!) Hey, lets use YOUR OWN imaginary library of books to solve this problem.  Laughing

What's really pathetic, is that you already know the answer. Sorry, I digress, lets roll.  Arrow

No other unit besides 141RAC had Churchill VII in Normandy in June. -Dima

your attachment shows Crocodile = Churchill VII with Crocodile flamethrower installed. -Dima


So, your library of books (the ones you have been reading for years), tells us that ONLY the 141st RAC had Chruchill Mk VII tanks in June. Presumably that covers June 26-30 (i.e. Operation Epsom).

Your library also states that to have a Crocodile, one must have a Churchill VII with flamethrower installed [which includes its trailer of fuel].

And now one other quote, from the man himself.  Arrow

These tanks [the Churchill Crocs] represent the support of the 141 RAC (the Buffs) present during Operation Epsom and supporting the 15 Scottish Infantry Division and 31 Tank Brigade.  Historically they were only used the first couple days of Operation Epsom and then pulled back. -Cathartes

It's Easy! So, if you see another unit (in the OOB) other than the 141st RAC, and they have some Funnies from the 79th Armoured Division in June 1944, then they can be Flails, or AVREs, but NOT Crocs, because as your REFERENCE LIBRARY tells us ONLY the 141st RAC had Chruchill Mk VII tanks in June, and you can't have a Croc without a Mk VII.  Laughing

And Cathartes must have access to your library as well, because his statement says the in-game Churchill Crocs, represent those of 141st RAC.
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Stwa

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votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

that's alright as after 30mins they will be able to fire at 60yds instead of 80 (if they were not lucky). -Dima

Now you are drifting into pure BS. If you really think this is true, you should edit the Wiki article, and add your quote. But you are not going to do that are you?

Because, (and this is what makes the Wiki better than your reference library), on the wiki, an article can be edited by any of their editors, at any time, and they are good a spotting pure BS like your quote. So if your quote was put into the wiki article it would eventually look like this.  Arrow

...after 30mins they will be able to fire at 60yds instead of 80 (if they were not lucky).[citation needed]

So, I will make it simple. When a Wiki editor adds [citation needed] after a sentence in an article, it means the editor believes that the text which was NOT cited, is bullshit.  Laughing

OK, here it is again. (for the third time)  Arrow

Other sources state the Crocodiles first entered combat on June 20th. According to Nigel Duncan in 79th Armoured Division, the flamethrowers did take part in the Normandy landings but initially had little success until it was understood that the trailers should not pressure up earlier than 30 minutes prior to an attack due to the leakage that occurred under the pressurized system. -WW2HQ

This quote is expressing the fear that after 30 minutes, the flamethrower will not be combat effective.

You are trying to make it seem like it will remain combat effective after 30 minutes. In the example you gave, then there would be more time, like 45 minutes or maybe an hour. And BTW, did this quote of yours come from your fantasy reference library or are you just making this up as we go along.  Laughing
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Stwa

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

And here is something interesting as well. It is an org chart for 31st Tank Brigade.

Pay close attention to footnote 1, which is applied to 141st RAC.

But also note the 7th, 9th, and 141st RAC, are its attached tank regiments.

And also see the REME (workshop) unit listed. These are the guys that can install the Crocodile Flamethrower kits to the Mk VII of 141st RAC.

31st Tank Brigade  Arrow


Last edited by Stwa on Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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AT_Stalky

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
You are trying to make it seem like it will remain combat effective after 30 minutes. In the example you gave, then there would be more time, like 45 minutes or maybe an hour. And BTW, did this quote of yours come from your fantasy reference library or are you just making this up as we go along.  Laughing


I have no idea about the flamers. But, if I read you right Stwa…,

1) Then one may belive that all the Crocks pressurised trailers leaked at the exact same rate. Exactly the same leakage rate, no variation at all. Were the service personnel adjusting the leakage so they were all the same? If one leaked less, what did they do with it? Drilled a hole so it leaked as much as the rest?

2) So.. They were all holding pressure up to 30.00 minutes. And then one second later at 30:01 min, the pressure dropped to zero..

Ok.

BTW: Does you wiki links say that they found routines to overcome the limitation of the “30 minutes”?
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Dima

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):

No other unit besides 141RAC had Churchill VII in Normandy in June. -Dima
your attachment shows Crocodile = Churchill VII with Crocodile flamethrower installed. -Dima

So, your library of books (the ones you have been reading for years), tells us that ONLY the 141st RAC had Chruchill Mk VII tanks in June. Presumably that covers June 26-30 (i.e. Operation Epsom).
Your library also states that to have a Crocodile, one must have a Churchill VII with flamethrower installed [which includes its trailer of fuel].
And now one other quote, from the man himself.  Arrow
These tanks [the Churchill Crocs] represent the support of the 141 RAC (the Buffs) present during Operation Epsom and supporting the 15 Scottish Infantry Division and 31 Tank Brigade.  Historically they were only used the first couple days of Operation Epsom and then pulled back. -Cathartes

Crocs were not pull back but were in reserve on a front line to deal with hard strongpoints if occure - they actually lost 2 trailers to mortar fire with some casualties while having them pressurized and ready for combat.

Quote:
It's Easy! So, if you see another unit (in the OOB) other than the 141st RAC, and they have some Funnies from the 79th Armoured Division in June 1944, then they can be Flails, or AVREs, but NOT Crocs, because as your REFERENCE LIBRARY tells us ONLY the 141st RAC had Chruchill Mk VII tanks in June, and you can't have a Croc without a Mk VII.  Laughing

so funny to read your brainstorm Smile
I will make it even more easy for you below: .

Quote:
And Cathartes must have access to your library as well, because his statement says the in-game Churchill Crocs, represent those of 141st RAC.

141RAC was the only unit having Crocs in NWE till October 1944 ;)

Cool speculations actually, some quite logical Smile.
Quote:
that's alright as after 30mins they will be able to fire at 60yds instead of 80 (if they were not lucky). -Dima

Now you are drifting into pure BS. If you really think this is true, you should edit the Wiki article, and add your quote. But you are not going to do that are you?

Because, (and this is what makes the Wiki better than your reference library), on the wiki, an article can be edited by any of their editors, at any time, and they are good a spotting pure BS like your quote. So if your quote was put into the wiki article it would eventually look like this.  

...after 30mins they will be able to fire at 60yds instead of 80 (if they were not lucky).[citation needed]

So, I will make it simple. When a Wiki editor adds [citation needed] after a sentence in an article, it means the editor believes that the text which was NOT cited, is bullshit.  

OK, here it is again. (for the third time)  

Other sources state the Crocodiles first entered combat on June 20th. According to Nigel Duncan in 79th Armoured Division, the flamethrowers did take part in the Normandy landings but initially had little success until it was understood that the trailers should not pressure up earlier than 30 minutes prior to an attack due to the leakage that occurred under the pressurized system. -WW2HQ

This quote is expressing the fear that after 30 minutes, the flamethrower will not be combat effective.

You are trying to make it seem like it will remain combat effective after 30 minutes. In the example you gave, then there would be more time, like 45 minutes or maybe an hour. And BTW, did this quote of yours come from your fantasy reference library or are you just making this up as we go along.
 
But what they were telling in War Diary:
Trailers:

Develops a number of gas leaks resulting in a drop of pressure. Lt.Shearman suggest that all unions and valves be reinforced.
Additional leakage has been found from the inspection plates at the back of the fuel tanks. The sealing of these parts need improving. It has sometimes proved neccessary to keep the trailers pressured for up to 48 hours.

:)
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johnsilver

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps you are forgetting the fuel trailer can be jettisoned from inside the tank.


You make a good point STWA regarding the trailer. I asked about it's inclusion in the game, but was told it would be difficult to include because of movement behind the Churchill itself was why.

To have the Churchill's dragging a less lightly armored and extremely flammable trailer would have been nice, had it been possible.. All reality aside.
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Stwa

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Quote:
Perhaps you are forgetting the fuel trailer can be jettisoned from inside the tank.


You make a good point STWA regarding the trailer. I asked about it's inclusion in the game, but was told it would be difficult to include because of movement behind the Churchill itself was why.

To have the Churchill's dragging a less lightly armored and extremely flammable trailer would have been nice, had it been possible.. All reality aside.


Ya, but I didn't ask ANYBODY for any of that.  Exclamation

I suggested to Cathartes, WAY back on maybe page 3 or something, to just make the Mk VII weigh more, or MOVE slower, to account for the weight of the trailer and its fuel.

But, with all this BS floating around this thread. This is my take away of the Churchill Crocodile during Operation Epsom, based on a limited information set.

1. The fuel trailer in the Crocodile "system" leaked like a sieve. Not just components associated with pressurization, but the steel plates forming the body of the trailer itself.

2. It normally would take 15 minutes to pressurize the fuel trailer. But others found, that you might need up to 48 hours (2 days) to complete this task. Operation Epsom lasted 5 days by comparison.

3. Only the 141st RAC had Mk VII Churchills and Crocodile fuel trailers at this time. These were supplied by 79th Armoured Division.

4. The 141st RAC had no more than 6 Mk VII Churchills at this time. It is unclear [to me] if there were in fact 6 fuel trailers.

5. I could only find one source (Dima's Library) that indicated Crocodile action (combat?) during Operation Epsom, where all 3 Mk VII tanks were disabled but recovered from the field. That leaves 3 Mk VIIs left, until these disabled tanks could be repaired.
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