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pvt_Grunt

Rep: 94.1
votes: 5


PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

It will take MORE than 30 minutes to take the pressure out of this thread!
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):

Ya, but I didn't ask ANYBODY for any of that.  Exclamation

But, with all this BS floating around this thread. This is my take away of the Churchill Crocodile during Operation Epsom, based on a limited information set.

[quote]1. The fuel trailer in the Crocodile "system" leaked like a sieve. Not just components associated with pressurization, but the steel plates forming the body of the trailer itself.

yes it leaked but that doesn't mean they couldn't fire flame after 30 mins Smile

Quote:
2. It normally would take 15 minutes to pressurize the fuel trailer. But others found, that you might need up to 48 hours (2 days) to complete this task. Operation Epsom lasted 5 days by comparison.

no, it took 30 mins to fully pressure trailer up and the pressure could last for several (if not many) hours but tankers asked for 48 hours pressure.

Quote:
3. Only the 141st RAC had Mk VII Churchills and Crocodile fuel trailers at this time. These were supplied by 79th Armoured Division.

In June-July 1944 141RAC was more or less independent unit attached to different formations for special tasks.  

Quote:
4. The 141st RAC had no more than 6 Mk VII Churchills at this time. It is unclear [to me] if there were in fact 6 fuel trailers.

false, they had many more.

Quote:
5. I could only find one source (Dima's Library) that indicated Crocodile action (combat?) during Operation Epsom, where all 3 Mk VII tanks were disabled but recovered from the field. That leaves 3 Mk VIIs left, until these disabled tanks could be repaired.

false, there were more than 6 Crocs supporting 8th Corps Wink
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Hey,

For some reason, I am having a hard time finding real combat footage for the Chruchill Croc on YouTube. I can find plenty of American flame tanks, but just not the Croc.

So, if anyone comes across a nice vid, please post a link.


Regards,

Stwa
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

I fiinally got access to the 141st RAC War Diaries, and as might be expected, Dima has been withholding some important information about the Crocodiles during Epsom.

So, I am going to revise my estimate of Churchill Mk VII tanks made available for Epsom, to 5 tanks instead of the 6 I reported before.

The following is a picture of the War Diary Entries during Operation Epsom, for Squadron A of the 141st RAC. Note the initial transfer, and the action on the 26th/27th.

141 RAC War Diaries


Last edited by Stwa on Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Quote:
I fiinally got access to the 141st RAC War Diaries, and as might be expected, Dima has been withholding some important information about the Crocodiles during Epsom. What a creep!

Great you finally made some search Exclamation

Quote:
So, I am going to revise my estimate of Churchill Mk VII tanks made available for Epsom, to 5 tanks instead of the 6 I reported before.

false estimation.
try again ;)

Quote:
But also notice the crew casualties that Dima failed to tell us about before.
 
we've never talked about casualties, havn't we?
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

false estimation. try again -Dima

Then provide an Orbat for regiment, you spammer, otherwise I use the one I already retrieved, where the troops had less than 3 tanks. Some troops only had 1 tank.  Laughing


Last edited by Stwa on Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
false estimation. try again -Dima
Then provide an Orbat for regiment, you spammer, otherwise I use the one I already retrieved, where the troops had less than 3 tanks. Some troops only had 1 tank.  Laughing

ok a tip for you Smile
try to find a difference between Tank Troop and Tank Squadron Wink
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

OK, a tip for you, find the Orbat otherwise I use the one I have already retrieved. How many tanks in each troop?  (1,2, or 3) Laughing

For all I know, for purposes of driving down a road, troops are 1 tank each.  Laughing
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
OK, a tip for you, find the Orbat otherwise I use the one I have already retrieved. How many tanks in each troop?  (1,2, or 3) Laughing
For all I know, for purposes of driving down a road, troops are 1 tank each.  Laughing

ok, I can see it's very complicated for you, but I like you Smile so let's try to have it step by step:

1) How many squadrons from 141RAC were supporting 8th Corps for Epsom?
2) How many troops were there in each squadron of 141RAC?
2) How many tanks were in each troop of 141RAC?

:)
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Ok, you mindless spamming dilbert, goto page 4 look at the Orbat there for the 141st and you can you can fill in the answers for your own questions. Me thinks you are gonna be dissapointed with Squad A.  Rolling Eyes

If you have a better Orbat, upload it!  Laughing
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Oh Dima, Deeeeeema, where did you go.

Don't you get the sense that this unit (the 141st) is having a hardware isssue. What happened to Squad C at Juno, or was it Gold, I have already forgotton.  Laughing

Everytime they bring the regiment close to the Germans, bad stuff starts happening.  Laughing

Maybe you can tell us how many tanks landed, and were they Squad A tanks, B tanks, or C tanks. Does a tank count as landed even if it is underwater? You have all the literature, so you are just lazy! But really, I am more interested in the fuel trailers. So, how many of those went into the channel.  Laughing  Arrow

a) 1 fuel trailer
b) 2 fuel trailers
c) 3 fuel trailers
d) none of the above  Laughing
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't you get the sense that this unit (the 141st) is having a hardware isssue.

never seen any mentioning of missing flamethrowing equipment in 141RAC.

Quote:
What happened to Squad C at Juno, or was it Gold, I have already forgotton

Only 2 Troops of C were landing on Gold and lost 4 of 6 tanks drowned.
But that's wasn't something extra ordinary during landing - alot of tanks including ShermanDD got drowned on all the beaches.

Quote:
Maybe you can tell us how many tanks landed, and were they Squad A tanks, B tanks, or C tanks. Does a tank count as landed even if it is underwater? You have all the literature, so you are just lazy! But really, I am more interested in the fuel trailers. So, how many of those went into the channel.
   
read above. A,B and most of C landed on prepared beach 2 weeks after first 2 troops. All squadrons were up to full strength in preparation for Epsom and other supporting ops like Ottawa. Each British Corps received a Croc Squadron for support.
Yes, they lost 3 fuel trailers drowned on June 6th as irretrivable losses. But those were compensated when the rest of 141RAC landed.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

If you scroll the list down to 31st Tk Bde [EPSOM OOB] you would see some more Crocs there - so how many troops in a total for support of 8th Corps? -Dima

Here are links to each chart.  Arrow

Operation EPSOM Order of Battle
30th Armoured Brigade
31st Tank Brigade


Last edited by Stwa on Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

...never seen any mentioning of missing flamethrowing equipment in 141RAC. -Dima

Yes, they [141RAC] lost 3 fuel trailers drowned on June 6th as irretrivable losses. -Dima

...they [141RAC] actually lost 2 trailers to mortar fire with some casualties while having them pressurized and ready for combat. -Dima


Confused
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141 RAC War Diaries

141 RAC War Diary June 22-30

Here are entries for June 26-30 Arrow

June 26, 1944

(a) In the adv to CHEUX by 7th RTR crocodiles not employed but engaged a few enemy Panthers. One tk holed by an 88 mm three times in the engine and put out of action. Tk Co d (Sgt. Wheatcroft) ordered crew to vacate the tk in case of fire and himself remained on board.

(b) 4 and 5 Tps under Capt. CH. Strachan were employed in sp' of the RSF to clear up ST MAUVIEU. This op very successful except for one strongpoint where inf casualties made it impossible until the next morning when Capt. Strachan staged a fresh attack with a coy of the Wiltshires. Lieut. NH.Harvey's Crocodile which shed a track in the middle of the strongpoint was then found to be empty and the crew was presumed captured. During the operation another Crocodile shed a track and the driver (L/c.D.Rogers) killed by a sniper. One tk overturned. Total Casualties :-3 Crocodiles (later recovered), one killed, on officer and four missing presumed captured.

June 27-30, 1944

'A' Sqn provided tps to 7th and 9th RTRs to be used if required in the adv on the R. Odon.The Crocodiles were not actually engaged but a great strain was placed on the crews as they were continually out. Also in counter attack role against the German thrusts on the CHEUX and FONTENOY LE PESNEL.

My comments.  Arrow

June 26, 1944 (a): NO Crocodiles were engaged or provided, but Churchill Mk VIIs were provided as gun tanks ONLY.

June 26, 1944 (b): Crocodiles and Mk VIIs (gun tank ONLY) are provided. This attack is the ONLY time 141 RAC provides Crocodiles (Mk VII + flame kit) to 15 Scottish Division. How many tanks? I say no more than 3-5 Crocodiles.

June 27-30, 1944: 141 RAC provides NO Crocodiles to 15th Scottish Division or 8th Corps. They provide some (amount not mentioned) Mk VIIs as gun tanks ONLY.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141RAC landed 1 troop with 3 Crocs on June 6 on Gold. -Dima

Only 2 Troops of C were landing on Gold and lost 4 of 6 tanks drowned. -Dima

Yes, they [141 RAC]lost 3 fuel trailers drowned on June 6th as irretrivable losses. -Dima


Confused

So, how many Churchill Mk VII tanks were landed on D-DAY?

How many Mk VII flamethrower kits with trailer were landed on D-DAY?

And, how many Crocodiles (Mk VII + Flamethrower Field Kits attached) were operated (on land) during D-DAY?
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

141 RAC War Diaries - Report of Crocodiles (page 2)
141 RAC War Diary - Report of Crocodiles (page 3)

This Report seems to have been created at the end of EPSOM or perhaps during EPSOM. I am saving Page 1 for later since it deals with D-DAY. Please note the concerns of flame tank leakage, having to be on standby for 48 hours, the inneficiency of the 75mm gun, and always being used as a gun tank, not a flame tank.   Arrow

4. MECHANICAL

Tanks:

No trouble.

Trailers:

Develops a number of gas leeks resulting in a drop of pressure. Lieut Shearman suggests that all unions and valves be reinforced. Additional leakage has been found from the inspection plates at the fuel tanks. The sealing of these plates need improving. It has sometimes proved necessary to keep the trailers pressuered up for 48 hrs.

5. EXPENDITURE OF NITROGEN (excluding tanks lost on beach)

58 bottles
1. ed:- approximately 5 bottles a shot. This is due to leakage in keeping trailers standing by presured up with no specific target. The percentage of bottles to fuel must be increased.

6. EMPLOYMENT

Offrs stress that it must be used in a correct flame throwing role and not in an anti-tk role. Up to now in the majority of their actions they were used as gun tanks and not flame throwers. They were kept in a forward position to deal with tanks and were not on call as flame throwers.


7. GENERAL

(a) "Tigers" and "Panthers" nearly always lie in ambush to a flank. They like sitting on the edges of woods etc.

(b) There is a strong feeling amongst tank crews that greater provision of the 17 pounder gun is necessary to deal with Tigers and Panthers against which the 75mm is not very effective.

At CREULEY the advance was held up for several hours by two Tigers which had concealed themselves in a wood. Three Shermans were knocked out one after the other attempting to get forward and this advance was not continued until a Sherman with a 17 pounder was brought up.
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Bungarra

Rep: 130.8
votes: 5


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

At CREULEY the advance was held up for several hours by two Tigers which had concealed themselves in a wood. Three Shermans were knocked out one after the other attempting to get forward and this advance was not continued until a Sherman with a 17 pounder was brought up.

And....
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
141RAC landed 1 troop with 3 Crocs on June 6 on Gold. -Dima

Only 2 Troops of C were landing on Gold and lost 4 of 6 tanks drowned. -Dima

Yes, they [141 RAC]lost 3 fuel trailers drowned on June 6th as irretrivable losses. -Dima

Confused
So, how many Churchill Mk VII tanks were landed on D-DAY?
How many Mk VII flamethrower kits with trailer were landed on D-DAY?
And, how many Crocodiles (Mk VII + Flamethrower Field Kits attached) were operated (on land) during D-DAY?

How one can be so inadequate? Wink
2 troops of 3 tanks each (6 in total) were landing on June 6,
of them 3 tanks got drowned in deep water so only 3 got ashore = 1 troop.
of them 1 got drowned in a shell hole so 2 remained (check TLD:BfC Wink).
on June 7 a Croc that was drowned in a shell hole joined the remaining 2 tanks.
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Gateway to Caen - FIRST IMPRESSIONS by TIK Reply with quote

Bungarra wrote (View Post):
At CREULEY the advance was held up for several hours by two Tigers which had concealed themselves in a wood. Three Shermans were knocked out one after the other attempting to get forward and this advance was not continued until a Sherman with a 17 pounder was brought up.
And....

of course there were no Tigers or Panthers at Creuley Smile
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