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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: Historical realism mod :) Reply with quote

Hi all,

To sort out how the data files work in GTC before porting something big I've came to idea of making some kind of historical realism mod.
As I have all the numbers for the German units on the eve of Epsom it will be pretty easy to fix/adjust units/FPs for the Germans.
If anyone has some detailed information for the 8th Corps units on June 25th and would like to share it would be greatly appreciated.

The basic plan is :

1) Adjust most of the data for vehicles and weapons - done.
2) Adjust/fix FPs/units for both sides.
3) Make 21 slots always available - you decide what you take in battle.
4) Make alot of diversity for teams representing real employment of units.
5) Adressing vehicle speed - done.
6) Adressing poor aiming of tanks - hard coded - everyone should spam Matrix forum (politely as Cathartes mentioned Wink ).
7) Homing mortars - fixed.

Please advise what else would you be interested to change in vanilla GTC?


Last edited by Dima on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:09 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Cathartes

Rep: 101.3
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

If you change some of the BGs to 21 units, you will have to provide an unrealistic amount of troops to some of the forcepools, or significantly change how troops are organized (in an unrealistic or un-historic way) so be prepared to stretch your meaning of "fix"--especially if you intend to hold on to the battalion-level OOB for the British.

Also, in order to make sense of the dynamic evolution of the Epsom Battlefield, and the great mixing, rapid movement and dispersal of units that occurred (especially with the Germans), I will be very curious how you choose to make compromises and interpret the composition of battlegroups, especially in context with the adjacent Operation Dauntless and the way German troops and tanks moved between the two areas of fighting.  Maybe you can make a bunch of new maps and expand the area to include that area of fighting?  That was our original intent, but we never had time to do this.

Look forward to see what you rig up!
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Cathartes,

Thanks for your feedback!

Please don't tell me about ahistorical/unrealistic organizations as that's what we have for the Germans in GtC now, sorry to say. But that's alright, you still made a great game! First of re-releases I like Smile.
Well, probably I will see a problem soon....or I will have to split teams in more historical/realistic way Wink.

I still think about the brits...but I recall in 2010 they were all telling me it was wrong to have leMG for most of the German teams Wink.

Quote:
Also, in order to make sense of the dynamic evolution of the Epsom Battlefield, and the great mixing, rapid movement and dispersal of units that occurred (especially with the Germans), I will be very curious how you choose to make compromises and interpret the composition of battlegroups, especially in context with the adjacent Operation Dauntless and the way German troops and tanks moved between the two areas of fighting.  Maybe you can make a bunch of new maps and expand the area to include that area of fighting?  That was our original intent, but we never had time to do this.

unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge about Epsom and that's why I have to rely on your reseach.
So the mod will only adjust/fix BGs that are in the vanilla Epsom GC Smile.
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russ109

Rep: 12.9


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Interesting remarks Cathartes. So by the sound of it we could of had a much larger game with more maps? Only Matrix decided to get it out asap to rake in the cash and on to their next project!
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Just an example of how the units of same 25.PzGrR/12.SS-PzD were different on the eve of Epsom:

1) 1.Kp/1.Bt 80% manpower, 4 sMG, 29 leMG and 2 8cm.
2) 5.KP/2.Bt 80% manpower, 4 sMG, 12 leMG, 2 8cm.
3) 9.Kp/3.Bt 80% manpower, 4 sMG, 12 leMG, 2 8cm.

now let's look at 26.PzGrR:

1) 1.Kp/1.Bt. 50% manpower, 0 sMG, 0 leMG, 0 8cm.
2) 5.Kp/2.Bt. 100% manpower, 4 sMG, 18 leMG, 1 8cm.
3) 9.Kp/3.Bt. 100% manpower, 4 sMG, 28 leMg, 2 8cm

compare to GtC :)

edited: Oops, wrote the wrong manpower percentage for 1.Kp/1.Bt of 26.PzGrR Smile.


Last edited by Dima on Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Pzt_Crackwise

Rep: 59
votes: 1


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

I think the tanks move quite slower than the other games. (Not on the rainy days, also during normal days)  I don't think they could be so slow in reality (apart from churchill mark VII: crocodile). In GJS tanks could move at pretty decent speeds.

Also, tanks, ATGs, AT infantry seem to miss to often. They almost always miss the first shot, even if there is a command team nearby.

It would be nice if these things could be tweaked a bit in a mod.
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the tanks move quite slower than the other games. (Not on the rainy days, also during normal days)  I don't think they could be so slow in reality (apart from churchill mark VII: crocodile). In GJS tanks could move at pretty decent speeds.

no problem adressing that.

Quote:
Also, tanks, ATGs, AT infantry seem to miss to often. They almost always miss the first shot, even if there is a command team nearby.

not sure but we'll see soon Smile.

updated topic.
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DoktorPaj

Rep: 25.4


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

How do you change the force pools to make all 21 slots editable? I thought that was impossible.
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

DoktorPaj wrote (View Post):
How do you change the force pools to make all 21 slots editable? I thought that was impossible.

Cathartes and Firefox suggested how to do it - BG needs to have at least 8 Companies to have all 21 slots available Smile.
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

We'll start with II./26./12.SS-PzD (the first German BG in GC):

in GTC it has a composition of Typ 43 (gp) but in real life it was Typ 43 (mot) thus really different teams and different support Smile.
to make it have 21 units I'll add the following units (from 26 Regiment support):

1) Mot sIG Zug with 1 sIG33.
2) Mot Flak Zug with 2 Flak 38.
3) Armored Pionier Zug with 2 SdKfz 251/16, 3 Pio Gruppen, 2 SdKfz 251/7 and 1 SdKfz 251/7 (2.8cm).
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Hesus

Rep: 36.6


PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

7 men units would give a more intense feeling to the infantry battles.
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Hesus wrote (View Post):
7 men units would give a more intense feeling to the infantry battles.

Typ 43 (mot) has 7+5men organization Smile.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Well, good luck with the historical Germans. I know this kind of stuff makes you happy.

But, it would drive me crazy. Here are all the Germany infantry I use from D-DAY to the end of the war. They are generally commanded by the AI.  Arrow
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Hesus

Rep: 36.6


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Well i can't wait to see this mod appear. Good luck with it. Smile
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Dima,
How you feel about the nato icons vs images?
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Dima

Rep: 81.1
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

AT_Stalky wrote (View Post):
Dima,
How you feel about the nato icons vs images?

Stalk, of course I would definately like to use photos for BG screen and new icons (for easy navigation) only in battle like we made in BfC.
If you would like to help porting them (both photos and icons) from BfC, I appreciate this or will have to wait for Nikin Smile.
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Cathartes

Rep: 101.3
votes: 15


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Hey Dima,
I don't claim to be an expert on German troop composition, but I used PitF as the starting point (didn't you help Steve with PitF OOB?) but had to make a lot of adjustments because a lot of the 12SS units in Epsom were deployed as front-line infantry without all their support up front backing them--many of their halftracks where unavailable or previously destroyed.  Also, I had to make some adjustments to balance h2h play in some cases because the Germans were actually weaker (overall) than they currently are in GtC.

I do stand by what I said about British infantry/troop composition, and happy to discuss.

Tanks-- you can speed them up certainly, but there were a few factors in keeping tank movement slow overall:

1. British had terrible tank-infantry cooperation and there is no way to reflect this in game.
2. It was pretty muddy after the first morning.
3. It was not in anyone's armor doctrine to race around the battlefield without knowledge or cover.  Tanks moved methodically and cautiously in the presence of enemy, and only moved quickly if racing for cover/trying to avoid fire.  
4. Tanks moving faster will likely multiply inaccuracy with armor vs armor.
5. It will change the dynamic of the game making tanks a more dominating battlefield weapon than they currently are. If people want that trade off, you can have it.

Regarding infantry anti-tank weapons: they are actually more effective than in PitF, and arguably unhistorically so (if looking at data), but when adjusting data, historical accuracy doesn't exactly play historically accurate in the game--this engine is not like the older CC engines before LSA.
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Cathartes

Rep: 101.3
votes: 15


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Quote:
Interesting remarks Cathartes. So by the sound of it we could of had a much larger game with more maps? Only Matrix decided to get it out asap to rake in the cash and on to their next project!


well, we were give a timeline to work with and you can only do so much with that.  If we were able to work faster and it was a full-time job and a half, maybe we could have pulled it off.  This final cc game was not allowed to come out after the new close combat.   Wink
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Pzt_Crackwise

Rep: 59
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Cathartes for the useful replies!

I forgot to ask another very game-dominating thing: The Crocodile tank flame just single shots and destroys any tank in the game.  Is it realistic?

Tank fight against the croc goes like this currently:
1. Shoot from far, can't penetrate, black reticule.
2. Move closer, flank it. Shoot at it, miss the first shot.
3. Croc turns at you, shoots the cannon, can't penetrate. Flames your tank once: And you are BBQ!

I could understand if it immobilized or damaged the tanks, or maybe destroyed them in the 3rd, 4th shot. But so far, it always one shot me with flamer.
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Pzt_Crackwise

Rep: 59
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :) Reply with quote

And another thing:

Why does almost every infantry team have MGs? Even recon teams now have machine guns and it doesn't make much sense, since they should be lighter and more mobile teams. (Both the Allied and German side has this over-presence of MG situation)

Is there any historical background to this?  Because, now I find myself almost never picking heavy MG teams, which I used to do quite often in GJS or other mods.
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