I forgot to ask another very game-dominating thing: The Crocodile tank flame just single shots and destroys any tank in the game. Is it realistic?
Tank fight against the croc goes like this currently:
1. Shoot from far, can't penetrate, black reticule.
2. Move closer, flank it. Shoot at it, miss the first shot.
3. Croc turns at you, shoots the cannon, can't penetrate. Flames your tank once: And you are BBQ!
I could understand if it immobilized or damaged the tanks, or maybe destroyed them in the 3rd, 4th shot. But so far, it always one shot me with flamer.
Of course that's not realistic as basing on experience from the Spanish war all the German tanks became flame protective from frontal projection. What flamethrower could do to a tank is to burn rubber bandages on wheels, melt engine radiator making a tank immobile or just force crew to bail out because of scare of beeing burned alive.
No worries, Crocs will be different after rework .
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Why does almost every infantry team have MGs? Even recon teams now have machine guns and it doesn't make much sense, since they should be lighter and more mobile teams. (Both the Allied and German side has this over-presence of MG situation)
Is there any historical background to this?
There were different appraches on infantry combat in German Army and the British Army:
1) The Brits relied on bayonet/granade charge of Rifle Group with support of Gun Group (BREN). Example: of 10men Rifle section, 8 men had bayonets.
2) The Germans relied on leMG to deal with opposition where most of the riflemen were just acting as protection and ammo bearers for squad's leMG(s) and were taught to avoid close/hand-to-hand combat at all costs. Example: of 12men PzGren Gruppe (mot), only 6-7 had bayonets, of 10men PzGren Gruppe (gp), only 4-5 had bayonets.
So basicaly as a British player you have to utilize bayonet/grenade charge under cover of MGs as your main tactics while as the German player you have to rely on firefight where your superior leMGs and Rifle Grenades will help you winning with much less casualties. But in hand-to-hand combat the German teams will most always loose to the Brits.
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Because, now I find myself almost never picking heavy MG teams, which I used to do quite often in GJS or other mods.
you can't substitute sMG with leMG in most of key scenarios especially at long range engagements because of way better accuracy and possibility of long sustaining fire .
Hey Dima,
I don't claim to be an expert on German troop composition, but I used PitF as the starting point (didn't you help Steve with PitF OOB?) but had to make a lot of adjustments because a lot of the 12SS units in Epsom were deployed as front-line infantry without all their support up front backing them--many of their halftracks where unavailable or previously destroyed. Also, I had to make some adjustments to balance h2h play in some cases because the Germans were actually weaker (overall) than they currently are in GtC.
well, 3rd bat of 26.PzGrR was the only armoured battalion of 12.SS-PzD and on the eve of Epsom it had like 70-90% (depending on Company) of halftracks still intact . But this battalion was defending west of GTC area against 49.ID.
but if you are talking about PzPioBat.12 then yes, it had a very poor condition of it's armoured companies with only 251/7 (leMG) halftracks left.
But let's try to simulate all these and see how it goes .
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I do stand by what I said about British infantry/troop composition, and happy to discuss.
sure, we will discuss them after the Germans .
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Tanks-- you can speed them up certainly, but there were a few factors in keeping tank movement slow overall:
1. British had terrible tank-infantry cooperation and there is no way to reflect this in game. - IMO we are not reenacting the battle in CC but simulating the forces and let the players have their own tactics, battles and outcome.
2. It was pretty muddy after the first morning.
3. It was not in anyone's armor doctrine to race around the battlefield without knowledge or cover. Tanks moved methodically and cautiously in the presence of enemy, and only moved quickly if racing for cover/trying to avoid fire. - same for experienced players in CC as any tank without infantry support can be destroyed or captured by a single infantry team. But now they can't race for cover due to slow speed at all time
4. Tanks moving faster will likely multiply inaccuracy with armor vs armor. - will try and see.
5. It will change the dynamic of the game making tanks a more dominating battlefield weapon than they currently are. If people want that trade off, you can have it. - tanks were/are dominating battlefields since 1916 .
[qupte]Regarding infantry anti-tank weapons: they are actually more effective than in PitF, and arguably unhistorically so (if looking at data), but when adjusting data, historical accuracy doesn't exactly play historically accurate in the game--this engine is not like the older CC engines before LSA.[/quote]
no PzF/RPzB is listed in 12.SS reports till late July.
though they did have alot of GrBs...
no PzF/RPzB is listed in 12.SS reports till late July.
meaningless since there is account after account of PzF use in June in multiple sources on both sides of the battle
with 12.SS? Could you please share?
As you should know there is a German report with tank kills claims dated June 29 and it shows only 23 claims by close combat weapon for 12.SS. Kind of low number for the unit that was heavily engaged during all June and encountered alot of enemy tanks...but in comparison to other units in Normandy 12.SS had a huge amount of Rifle Grenades adapters and GrBs on June 6th.
352.ID that was low grade unit but did have PzFs on June 6th reported 30 CC tank kill claims.
PLD that was engaged later than 12.SS but had PzF/RPzB reported 40 CC tank claims.
And 21.Pz that had neither PzF/RpzB nor significant amount of GrBs reported only 5 CC tank claims...
Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
FWIW, I agree regarding shrecks, can't find a single reference or acknowledgment anywhere in any source I've ever come across for 12SS in Normandy.
With fausts I run into a number of scattered accounts. I will have to dig around soon (will do) to sort through them, but for starters, do you have a copy of "12th SS: Vol. 1, The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division"? There are a fair number of references beginning on June 7.
- Ambushes (instant spotting by enemy on 'Fire' order, enemy see through smoke, cover system completely blown away)..
I have played the game to some extent and haven't noticed it having such strange problems so far. The only issues I have noticed about gameplay until now are the ones I have already posted above.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
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With fausts I run into a number of scattered accounts. I will have to dig around soon (will do) to sort through them, but for starters, do you have a copy of "12th SS: Vol. 1, The History of the Hitler Youth Panzer Division"? There are a fair number of references beginning on June 7.
Will check the book but I have monthly reports of 12.SS since April 1944 and the first time PzF/RPzB are listed was in August 3rd report. But as there are 972 PzF listed out of 1.000 authorized that makes me think they got them in late July and had used/lost some already.
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
You know the case when you shoot at a tank and it automatically discharges smoke. Plenty of times in this game I was not able to see the targeted tank for a while after it discharged smoke defensively.
So I think smoke seems to work ok, that it can sometimes hide units briefly. It also changes the light green firing cursor through it to dark green as the previous games. So no problem there as well.
A mod, which:
- balanced the game a little more for H2H,
- changed the currently annoying things mentioned previously,
- and (if possible) made the maps more colorful (GJS style)
You know the case when you shoot at a tank and it automatically discharges smoke. Plenty of times in this game I was not able to see the targeted tank for a while after it discharged smoke defensively.
So I think smoke seems to work ok, that it can sometimes hide units briefly. It also changes the light green firing cursor through it to dark green as the previous games. So no problem there as well.
yes, it works same since at least TLD.
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A mod, which:
- balanced the game a little more for H2H
nah, will be a total rebalance .
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- and (if possible) made the maps more colorful (GJS style)
I like the color scheme of maps in GTC .
will show 2 first reworked BGs for the Germans tomorrow.
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:55 am Post subject: re: panzerfausts
Diaries of SS-Panzer Regiment 12 mentioned Panzerfaust training in Louviers on June 4 according to "Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy" by Norbert Szamveber.
Check out Hubert Meyer's account of 12.SS history yet?
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
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Diaries of SS-Panzer Regiment 12 mentioned Panzerfaust training in Louviers on June 4 according to "Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy" by Norbert Szamveber.
have just bought the book for kindle - looks like a decent work, thanks for sharing!
4 June 1944 - Tank training and tank gun fire practice between 0700 and 1100 hours for the officers nad NCO's of the Regimentsstab and Panzerfaust training in Louviers.
seems to me like an introduction of a new weapon for officers/NCOs and it doesn't mention life firing practice...and that's a single mentioning of panzerfaust in war diary.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
Steve said there were essentially no limits (technically up to 32768 per data file).
re: fausts, sure you can interpret discount that entry I mentioned, and the others that follow in Szambeber's book, including the report put together in early July that 23 tanks were destroyed in June by hand-held anti-tank weapons (interestingly more than by all AT guns). I'm still interested what you have to say about Hubert Meyers book and the many personal accounts of using panzerfausts in June.
Two reports of panzerfausts by the British during Espom: In Lloyd Clark's Operation Epsom there is mention of panzerfausts, small arms, and grenades being fired on 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry and 2nd Glasgow Highlanders as they entered the edge of Cheux on June 26. Also, mention of panzerfausts stopping Churchill tanks in St. Mauvieu on June 26.
Finally there is the famous story of Unterscharfuhrer Emil Durr who was awarded the Iron Cross for his heroic assault of a Crocodile at St. Mauvieu first using two Panzerfausts to immobilize the enemy tanks before finally using a magnetic mine. Apparently the tank was never destroyed but the crew abandoned it and was presumed killed/captured. Emil Durr was severely wounded in his attempts and died shortly after.
If you are going by KStN reports for 12SS, they are not completely reliable, especially since fausts were typically treated as ammunition and not weapons per se. I could continue to dig up more, but I think I've put enough time into this. It's your mod and obviously the effort and last word is yours.
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
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Steve said there were essentially no limits (technically up to 32768 per data file).
seems weapons file doesn't work here if you set entry 97 - 96 is a max in GTC.
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re: fausts, sure you can interpret discount that entry I mentioned, and the others that follow in Szambeber's book, including the report put together in early July that 23 tanks were destroyed in June by hand-held anti-tank weapons (interestingly more than by all AT guns).
sure, as Panzers were the main AT weapon in Normandy for the whole campaign.
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I'm still interested what you have to say about Hubert Meyers book and the many personal accounts of using panzerfausts in June.
yes, will have to read that.
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Two reports of panzerfausts by the British during Espom: In Lloyd Clark's Operation Epsom there is mention of panzerfausts, small arms, and grenades being fired on 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry and 2nd Glasgow Highlanders as they entered the edge of Cheux on June 26. Also, mention of panzerfausts stopping Churchill tanks in St. Mauvieu on June 26.
and all guns were 88mm.
how could they see a difference between PzF and GrB.39 penetrations?
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Finally there is the famous story of Unterscharfuhrer Emil Durr who was awarded the Iron Cross for his heroic assault of a Crocodile at St. Mauvieu first using two Panzerfausts to immobilize the enemy tanks before finally using a magnetic mine. Apparently the tank was never destroyed but the crew abandoned it and was presumed killed/captured. Emil Durr was severely wounded in his attempts and died shortly after.
or maybe he was throwing PanzerWurfMinen or shooting schiessbecher with HEAT ammo, who knows?
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If you are going by KStN reports for 12SS, they are not completely reliable, especially since fausts were typically treated as ammunition and not weapons per se. I could continue to dig up more, but I think I've put enough time into this. It's your mod and obviously the effort and last word is yours.
again, I have month reports that state each GrB, SB, russian ATG and IG but no mention of PzF/RPzB.
and yes, I've heard about fausts were treated as ammunition and that's why I asked Martin Block about that and he confirmed that Infantry units had a priority for PzF/RPzB till August 1944 on all fronts.
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
Hi Cathartes,
Well, I've checked the Meyer's book and although I still in doubts I think there could be some PzFauste for PzNahkampf units and maybe Pioniere .
Could you help me with understanding FPs?
To be on a safe side I gave 9 companies to II./26/12 but still slots are locked. Maybe there should be some amount of support/infantry unit to tigger 21 slots?
Or what do I do wrong?
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Let's make a mod :)
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To be on a safe side I gave 9 companies to II./26/12 but still slots are locked. Maybe there should be some amount of support/infantry unit to tigger 21 slots?
Or what do I do wrong?
Hard to say exactly, but with the 8 company thresholds and opening up the 7 corresponding support slot numbers: since this is an infantry BG, you will need to add 8 infantry companies to get all 7 support spots, not 8 companies total. Support companies will always only show up as support unless you designate/edit them as infantry, but then you have the problem of having nothing available in your support slots unless you rig an artificial work-around.
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