[mooxe]

Article on the the raping in Berlin in 1945.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32529679

Gives some details on where Beevor got his information. Also mention medicals records of the time, specifically the amount of abortions.

[US_Brake]

great article Mooxe

[Dima]

Why didn't those stupid Russians kill all the raped German women if they were doing so bad (the soldiers)? :)

Fury-movie shows that good - "Any of them will fuck with you for a chocolate".

[johnsilver]

The Germans admitted the holocaust and most atrocities committed during the war. The US admitted the good and evil side of dropping the 'bombs" on both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even the British have sort of apologized for the fire bombing of Dresden.

Yet I see you here constantly making excuses for the Russians in a war in which they helped start? Patriotism goes just too far sometimes Dima.

[Dima]

[mooxe]

[US_Brake]

Rape during the occupation of Germany
From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

[sod98]

Alot of women did alot of things that they would rather explain away as rape to get food and other essentials. Especially once they are pregnant with someone else's child. Rape certainly did happen but I do doubt those figures. Many misleading stories were circulated after the war to make opposition look bad - Berlin Airlift. That was a western scare mongering tactic - USSR offered free coal and food only to civilians and not Allied forces. That was partly due to the US refusing to pay the promised war debt to the USSR created when USSR accepted to face and blunt the Axis forces while the West prepared for their invasion of Europe and Operation Unthinkable. Which was another of Churchill's Gallipoli's - Planing the attack on the USSR. However this was shelved as the Generals from GB and US said at best it would be a long war and possible defeat for the West. Stalin found out about this Operation within weeks of the war ending. Little wonder the USSR never trusted the west after that.

[johnsilver]

[sod98]

Interesting, I wasn't aware of the Russians sending ANY supplies of ANY kind to the western Allies at ANY time during the war, but the western allies taking huge risks all during the war, from German submarines and bombing to ship supplies and weapons to the Russians, which was NEVER paid for EVER by the Russians at ANY time still and eventually written of and denied by Stalin as the "cost of war" Sod.[/quote]

Well it was agreed by the US that while the west were preparing for the invasion of Europe if USSR could hold the Nazi's. Reconstruction monies would follow after the war. I believe a recent US documentary by Oliver Stone - Untold History of the United States briefly touches on this. But is enough for those for are unaware of the many slight of hands pulled by the Allies upon each other. Also keeping in mind the war was ultimately won and lost on the Eastern Front and the other fronts only tended to be the backup - Nth Africa, Italy and Europe etc.

These supplies you mention were also part of that deal between ultimately US and USSR. Sadly the tanks were of a lesser quality being Shermans at best. That was the only part of the deal they kept but at a guess greatly appreciated. Even the invasion of Europe was late in coming but the reconstruction monies never arrived. One of the main reasons for the asset stripping of Germany post WW2. Several recent articles and books have been written on this saga. If I come across them again I will post the names for you. Not many people least of all are aware of these unkept promises post WW2 to recent.

Off the topic a little. Some companies profited greatly from the war by selling to both sides. A classic was Ford. most of the German made trucks had Ford motors powering them right through the war. In fact Henry Ford was given Grand Cross of the Eagle in 1938 for his service to Germany. Coke was still making and selling it's wares in Nazi Germany during the war also. Pilots in Nth Africa use to strap bottles of drink to their machines and fly to a high altitude, land and have a cool Coke. Some of these things are rarely unknown today. Every country has it's skeletons - the great purges in the USSR pre WW2, forced migrations of white Cossacks post WW2 and many others. Even one of Stalins greatest Generals started off WW2 in a Gulag. Appointed then to the Red Army and after proving his ability took part in most the battles pushing the Axis out of USSR. However at the end of the war he was deemed to be too popular with the soldiers and public so he was sent into exile in Siberia til he died.

[US_Brake]

All Soldiers during WWII were well aware that rape was wrong and a crime. I prefer the facts vs wartime and postwar Soviet propaganda in regards to the truth on this subject.

The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times. At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[10] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[14] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[1][15] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[16] According to Natalya Gesse, Russian soldiers raped German females from eight to eighty years old. Russian women were not spared either.

Do you believe that the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history" actually happened?

Or do you share a view like Dima, a skeptic who celebrates rape as a good joke or Sod98 a skeptic who blames the victims.

[johnsilver]

[sod98]

Do you believe that the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history" actually happened?

Or do you share a view like Dima, a skeptic who celebrates rape as a good joke or Sod98 a skeptic who blames the victims.[/quote]


Really you are talking about a Historian who blatantly ignored the causes of the Cold War as Soviet paranoia, hatred of the West etc. In reality it was far more indept and it was the West who was scared of a USSR dominating Europe, refused to pay a war promise, created the Berlin Airlift etc. This very same Historian falls for the same trap lots have fallen for over the years and that is to publish Govt produced evidence ( just stats ) on exactly things like the numbers of women raped in Berlin / Germany. Even your own very good Historian Stephen E Ambrose now questions alot of the information provided after the war by all the Allies and Axis where available as being at best just a guideline. This same trap is what clouds peoples better judgement in modern times on things like WMD's in Iraq prior to the invasion. Sadly media published verbatim govt releases. Even when information to the contrary was available. Hitchcock at best just produces the very same Govt / party line and rehashes the same 70 year old history that then lacked an entire truth ( part truths ).

Also don't read things into what I have said that simply aren't there. I did say rapes happened but not to the extent of up to 2 million when absolutely no evidence of that exists. Historians are meant to work off evidence and draw conclusions from such. But sadly like Hitchcock to date no one has supplied reliable evidence of 2 million rapes or the 100,000 in Berlin. I will say it again, alot of rapes occurred. But also it was an excuse sometimes for those who had to survive at a time of great despair and hardship. Some had relationships with Russians and bore their child and some prostituted themselves etc. There is evidence that a great number of Russians were executed / hung for excesses - rape, murder, looting etc. Granted days after Berlin fell, but not anywhere near the figure suggested nor will they.  Remembering many people starved through lack of alternative for a better wording. People need to write without emotion to stick to facts where they lack the ability to produce actual facts or 100,000 witness accounts.

History is full of these accounts and are almost entirely written by the victor. In this case written to scare Western public opinion against idealism of Communism that was taking Europe even in non USSR countries - Greece, France, Germany post WW2 and to further their cause. I am neither Russian or American ( USA ), Communist or a Democracy believer. So for my statements I have tried to remain unbiased and stick to proven facts and not propaganda that even today plagues the West. War on Terrorism - terrorism is an act and not a belief. Otherwise USA would be fighting it's self.

[sod98]

Hey Sod, Ask a Kennedy about their Patriarch.. Joe Kennedy and his Nazi sympathizing past, how Goering demanded to see him upon initial capture, etc.. See how fast one changes the subject or runs away.

Another is Preston Bush ( Dad and Grandad to the two former Presidents ) who along with other notable US figures of the time were going to be tried as traitors. The then President deciding against it as the US was going into war. Every side had those personalities - wartime pope assisted Nazi Germany, Switzerland sent Jews back to Germany who had escaped to them, Britain sent Cossacks back to USSR after WW2 to face at best Gulags or execution.

[US_Brake]

Name any History College Professor who is currently teaching at a University who teaches that The mass rapes of the occupation of Germany is a false story invented for western propaganda.

Good luck on your search.

[MajorFrank]

During the war the Nazis noticed that it was the news about the rapes committed by the Soviet troops that seemed to upset the German civilians the most. The Nazis started to use this in their propaganda in order to bolster support for the Nazi German troops and to dissuade any pro-Allied/Soviet activity by the German civlians. When the Soviets approached and took over German territory, the civilians sometimes took part in partisan-type activity against the Soviets, so it certainly wasn't a one way street with only the Soviets committing atrocities. The high estimates of the numbers of rapes committed by Soviets could be seen to be a continuation of this type of Nazi propaganda.

Naturally all rapes are bad but what I want to draw attention to is that so is murder. Btw Nazi German troops also raped women in their eastern war, and regularly wiped out entire villages of civilians. So thinking which side is worse is very strange since the Nazis were clearly much worse.

Recently there have been a couple of books published on the crimes (including rapes) committed by the western allied troops in the western front (yea I know Daily Mail is not very high class source but just to give an idea of what the books are about). So there is that as well.

What Soldiers Do.

When the Soldiers Came: The Rape of German Women at the End of the Second World War

Incidentally I'm in the middle of reading Beevor's book about the fall of Berlin right now, I know that he favors the high number when it comes to the estimate about the amount of rapes committed by Soviet troops.

[sod98]

Good luck on your search.[/quote]

Name me one US Historian who hasn't published the US Govt's / Allies figures without any actual proof and published them verbatim - good luck with that task. No one has shown 100,000 rape complaints and or hospital victim reports etc for Berlin alone. Historians working for any University don't publish any articles / books on topics of Govt concern unbiased - welcome to the new battlefield - propaganda through media.If you can see the problem, too many publish what they are told without evidence which is now sadly too late - 70 years too late. Remember for many years the West continued to claim victory in WW2 was gained by the Western Allies ignoring the reality that victory was gained on the Eastern Front with massive support from their Western Allies. Purposely cutting USSR from the view of at least joint victors if not actual victors. The point I have tried to make to you is one that most Western countries have tried to paint a picture of USSR and it's people no better than what Hitler and Nazi Germany did at times. That view is still held by many today.

[johnsilver]

[sod98]

That is not true. The German government has been apologizing over and over for it's wartime atrocities the last 70 years and we have heard nothing but excuses for most of the Russian atrocities and keep hearing them as retribution for what occurred to them from Germans and their allies.

Germany hasn't dealt with it's part in WW2. They have selectively picked what cherry's they want to talk about and ignore others. Even today still allowing marches and gatherings of former SS Units and or their supporters, covered up atrocities to the extent some Germans still believe the Holocaust never happened, former Axis post war Govt sheltering War Criminals, claiming victims of Allied bombing of civilians in cities like Dresden as war crimes when they did the same. The difference being evidence exists of the holocaust but show me the records of these 100,000 rapes in Berlin 1945 - Hospital records and or police reports - they simply don't exist in those numbers. For a country that wrote everything down that incriminated them at War Crimes trials I find it hard to believe that little exists.

Germany still hasn't paid many countries over their wartime behaviour. Greece is now chasing the Germany debt and others will follow if successful. Once again work off facts. Russia / USSR while showing what Germany has done and Allies post WW2 has also hidden their past and only recently are starting to admit to some of their wrong doings.However the Allies have never official mentioned creating the Berlin Airlift, Operation Unthinkable, breaking the agreement to pay USSR reconstruction monies promised, if they blunted the Axis advance. Also many other things to the extent most in the West wouldn't even know these things to be true as you don't. Little wonder Russia doesn't trust the West today with things like the illegal invasion of Iraq and now the illegal bombing of Syria and no one says anything. US foreign policy since WW2 is the worst in the world - 73 countries attacked since 1945. That's worse than China, Russia / USSR and many other countries combined. All in the name of greed - oil and other resources.

I'm sure if you owe a debt to someone to that extent they aren't just going to write it off. Sadly some people can't handle facts as they have been fed a line for so long that becomes their truth - propaganda. All countries use it.

[johnsilver]

Sod, I will say this time and time again forever..

The Jewish as a people bore the brunt of WW2. NOT the Russians, NOT the Poles, NOT ANYONE else. The Germans went onto a war of expansion and extermination, of the lesser races, but the Jewish people, as a whole, bore the brunt of the hatred. The Germans HAVE apologized for this, time and time again and still do to this day for the extermination camps and the evil that led up to it.

war reparitions

As for war reparations? The Jews STILL have never gotten the bulk of their belongings back. Records were destroyed in nazi Germany, which must have been shown in post WW2 western countries, or Germany to prove ownership of an item to return to it's rightful owner IF they had survived the war. Reparations? HAH! The consolation prize? A country.. Tiny, given begrudgingly, fighting them tooth and nail, every step of the way by England called Israel that they had to fight for the moment they set foot in it!

Just why do the Greeks need reparations, for giving pensions to government employees who thought they could retire at the age of 50?