Who spent the most $ to defeat the Axis? The American people did. Regular folks who paid taxes and bought war bonds. Who offered the Marshall Plan to the world? The US did. The countries who accepted the help received it as promised.
While Stalin's troops raped civilians in Germany, He was sending train after train of all his enemies to Siberia and into concentration camps. Russian POWs, Partisans, Political enemies, German POWs, Imagine if Stalin had controlled all of Germany and France in 1945. The only power that curbed Stalin's continuous mass-murder after WW2 was the western powers.
and another thing Sod... Who in this forum has ever suggested that USSR was not the prime military combatant against Germany in WW2. Anyone who understands military history is aware of this fact. The people of the USSR paid a very high price in blood to serve Stalin's Totalitarian State.
Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
[quote="US_Brake";p="80506"]In 1947 the Soviet Union rejected the Marshall Plan.
The Marshall Plan was rejected as it gave the USA unvetted entry into economies of countries like Poland, Romania etc. In other words not only would they have a say in that country, they would also have access to sensitive information regards those countries. It's a bit like Industrial espionage for the want of a better word. Can you imagine USA saying yes to Russia doing the same in Japan 1947 - they didn't even want their allies in Japan like GB or Australia. That is just a very quick run down. Many books on the subject that should help you. Really you must stop reading wiki for your acknowledge of History.
USA spent the most dollars on defeating Germany undoubted but you don't fight wars / conflicts on dollars alone or win them as such - Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia prove that. Also pre 1941 USA Industralists also spent millions on supporting Nazi Germany - Ford, Coke, Brown Bros, Preston Bush etc. The Marshall Plan was good for the USA but intrusive for other countries - control over their economies. It was considered too Capitalist even by some Western European's.Can you show how the Western Powers stopped this so called mass rape as there is no evidence of the 100,000 rapes in Berlin but you might hold the evidence.
Don't panic yourself with fanciful paranoia of what if's. It suited the west that USSR blunt and defeat the Nazi war machine to which they did. As said many times - the Western Allies sadly betrayed USSR with Operation Unthinkable, Berlin Airlift lies, broken promises of reconstruction monies - without strings attached. Churchill's quote about the " Iron Curtain " actually is another quote from the Nazi's - Goebbels. You seem to mistake Western Propaganda for truth but don't let that worry you. Propaganda was designed to influence the weak and feeble minded. There always is at least two sides to every story - yours, mine and the truth.
As for those who died for USSR - that's because the war was fought largely in the East. Remember USA was late for the two world wars. But in WW2 were profiting nicely prior to Dec 1941 by selling / manufacturing for both sides. Just like all those who are now dying in USA's many created and backed conflicts - 73 ( Syria ) countries since WW2. That's more than China, Russia / USSR and many other countries combined. That's what was wrong with the Marshall Plan and other intrusive Plans - hidden agenda's. Keep trying to use facts and not Wiki.
Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.
The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans".
Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc.
I happen to agree with you Tejszd.
According to former Soviet military intelligence officer Vladimir Rezun (writing under the pen name Viktor Suvorov), Hitler was forced to launch a preemptive assault against the Soviet Union in June 1941, to forestall an attack on Western Europe by Stalin in July.
Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who in 1941 was the Soviet Navy minister and a member of the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party, was quoted by Suvorov as stating in his postwar memoirs, "For me there is one thing beyond all argument—J. V. Stalin not only did not exclude the possibility of war with Hitler's Germany, on the contrary, he considered such a war...inevitable....J. V. Stalin made preparations for war...wide and varied preparations—beginning on dates...which he himself had selected. Hitler upset his calculations."
So according to Suvorov, Stalin's plan was to overrun an exhausted German Wehrmacht after they had utterly destroyed the Allied forces in France. The Soviet Union would have then been the Masters of ALL of Europe instead of just half of it that they received as the spoils of war as a result of WWII.
"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
I think everyone here understands atrocities were committed by all sides. In my opinion, it always seems like Russians are trying to downplay their role committing them by saying show me the proof. There really is no proof today that would hold up in court and we all know that. Is there an acceptable number that Russians would agree to? I guess Russians may be happy the number two million was chosen. Its so high and unbelievable that they can hide behind the lack of proof and pretend to be innocent of all of it.
yeah, and that's why even nowadays there are Nazis in court.
Most everything can be proved as most of the documents are there in archives (it's like internet).
I can understand your point and that makes same sence as WMD in Iraq, no problem for me, you can believe in anything you want - that's a kind of religion which doesn't need any proofs.
But again while I know (basing on documents) that it's a bullshit I believe they (RA soldiers) deserved to have some revenge for their wifes, sisters, daughters, etc. Shame for you they were not allowed and it was strictly punished by the RA commanders.
Disagree with you that west had no reason to turn against Russia.
hate us as long as you fear us .
Quote:
The Russians were just as aggressive as the Germans were before the WW2 started. Ask Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland. Ask the poles in Eastern Poland which Russia took over "to protect them from the Germans".
what? The World order has changed 29.09.38 and it was not done by the USSR.
probably you don't know that Poland occupied the areas in Chezhoslovakia same time as the Germans?
so you think USSR was so stupid to be away of these changes?
Quote:
Ask Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. after the war as they had puppet governments installed and were controlled/occupied by Russia. Compare that to Belgium, Greece, France, Holland, Italy, Norway, etc.
you know before the War the USSR had the agreement with Germany to share areas of infuluence, after the War the USSR had the same agreement with the USA.
So?
Quote:
Going back to the original subject of Berlin rapes.
The Russians should acknowledge it. It should not have happened though I do not think any army can claim innocence to atrocities (murder, rape, etc.). Unfortunately when leaders want soldiers to hate and kill each other..... The Eastern front seemed to have no rules and was much worse for atrocities than the Western front. Ultimately the hate the Russian leadership instilled in the troops to make them fight harder could not be reversed/turned off easily or quickly when they came into contact with German civilians.....
Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
Quote:
I happen to agree with you Tejszd.
According to former Soviet military intelligence officer Vladimir Rezun (writing under the pen name Viktor Suvorov), Hitler was forced to launch a preemptive assault against the Soviet Union in June 1941, to forestall an attack on Western Europe by Stalin in July.
Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who in 1941 was the Soviet Navy minister and a member of the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party, was quoted by Suvorov as stating in his postwar memoirs, "For me there is one thing beyond all argument—J. V. Stalin not only did not exclude the possibility of war with Hitler's Germany, on the contrary, he considered such a war...inevitable....J. V. Stalin made preparations for war...wide and varied preparations—beginning on dates...which he himself had selected. Hitler upset his calculations."
So according to Suvorov, Stalin's plan was to overrun an exhausted German Wehrmacht after they had utterly destroyed the Allied forces in France. The Soviet Union would have then been the Masters of ALL of Europe instead of just half of it that they received as the spoils of war as a result of WWII.
Even the Western historicans like Glantz, Kershaw, Nipe clearly says Rezun writes bullshit.
You are like 25 years outdated (that time he was really popular) as since that the archives in Russia are open and everything is well known.
Try to discuss him on AHF or Feldgrau .
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
According to former Soviet military intelligence officer Vladimir Rezun (writing under the pen name Viktor Suvorov), Hitler was forced to launch a preemptive assault against the Soviet Union in June 1941, to forestall an attack on Western Europe by Stalin in July.
That sort of logic would have suited the Bush Administration when they invaded Iraq illegally. A preemptive strike. It's a total nonsense to even remotely believe such a fanciful story. Stalin's army was still rebuilding ( Purges ) and not massing to attack Germany. Next you will be blaming the Jews for gassing themselves to setup Hitler, the Yanks placed their warships under jap bombs at Pearl, Italy was reclaiming old Roman lands from the Barbarians.
Your Vladimir Rezun - aka Victor Suvurov was a defector and his family were White Russians. Of course the Red Army in his eyes would be the aggressor - he family lost their influence and money.
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
War is hell. The Germans themselves had predicted the Russians would seek revenge long before the siege of Berlin. The Germans were the ones that broke the alliance pact with Stalin and ravaged the USSR bringing it to the brink of defeat. Not saying it was justified by any means. But the Germans themselves knew it was going to happen. No war in history and hopefully no war in the future will compare to the level of violence and hatred in the Eastern Front.
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
For anyone who is critical of Vladimir Rezun (as I knew that Dima and Sod would be), I would first ask that they read at least his first book, Icebreaker, which is available free online as an ebook. I just read it myself and I am convinced that his theory has some merit. If he was to just present his ideas without any evidence to back it up I would be the first to criticize his views.
It doesn't surprise me the charges leveled about him by Glantz. To me Glantz is just a little too praiseworthy of the Soviet Union. Historians after they have put time and energy into formulating their own views of history don't very much like someone coming around and disagreeing with them. After all, they are the experts.
The way that Dima and Sod have characterized Vladimir Rezun is what I would expect of someone who has very little argument—use of character assassination as a convenient and fairly effective tactic. Hell, the liberals in this country use it all the time when they want to defeat what someone is saying without having to argue why that is so. And then Sod uses the same tactic, in a sense, to somehow claim that next would be the Jews gassing themselves.
I also found it interesting that Dima and Sod didn't try to refute the quote I offered by Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov.
"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
Wow, here comes the Fox News clones...spinning a story about Berlin into a Partisan U.S. political argument. Who knew on Fox News they never employ character attacks? Must be a liberal conspiracy. Just ask Fox News. Gretta Van Liar on Fox said a million dumbazz viewers sent her emails asking about Federal takeover of Texas. Are you kidding me Schmal? What a joke.
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
What you say dj may be true about Fox. I really don't watch it much at all, and I really don't care anyway, as there is too much I can't believe that they are broadcasting or not broadcasting. So I am afraid your little character attacks on me won't stick as I have read too much about the goings on in the U.S. government, whether it is the Republicans of the Democrats in office, to ever trust what they say again.
"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
I also found it interesting that Dima and Sod didn't try to refute the quote I offered by Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov.
haha are you that brainwashed?
Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who in 1941 was the Soviet Navy minister and a member of the Central Committee of the Soviet Communist Party, was quoted by Suvorov as stating in his postwar memoirs, "For me there is one thing beyond all argument—J. V. Stalin not only did not exclude the possibility of war with Hitler's Germany, on the contrary, he considered such a war...inevitable....J. V. Stalin made preparations for war...wide and varied preparations—beginning on dates...which he himself had selected. Hitler upset his calculations."
you know that's well known
of cause Stalin knew the war is coming and they were preparing the sites in Ural for the factories to be evacuated. The documents show that the General HQ of RKKA expected 150% casualties of RKKA (of initial numbers) during first year with 300% of vehicles and that's why the tried to build as many as possible in the Peace time as they knew the Western industry is much more advanced than the Soviet.
Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.
Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books?
"No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy." Moltke
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Beevor, Berlin & BBC
[quote="Schmal_Turm";p="80602"]No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.
What evidence. One non descript journeyman as a historian with a great dislike for USSR / Russia. Surely only a fool would think this theory to be true. The vast majority of western historical evidence makes a non sense of this apologist. I have read one of his early books if not his first and found that to be inconsistant, boring and reflected a man trying to justify his decision in life. I couldn't read another of this guys drivel. Only the most desperate could do so only out of wanting to justify his lost cause. Iam surely you find Mein Kampf great reading too.
The atrocities committed during the war were committed by all - Russia shooting Polish Officers, Japs - POWs, Germans - 6m Jews and invading numerous countries. US shooting German and Jap POW's, Kiwi's executed German and Italians captured in a breakout Nth Africa etc. Germany and Russia of course committed more by the very nature of the biggest war arena, battles and numbers - total war.
Please don't embarrass yourself further making Germany a victim of WW2 as that's just a school boy rant at best.
No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.
well, maybe Iam but I've never told USSR was good but still show me the evidences of atrocities so we can discuss.
Quote:
Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books?
No, Dima, you are the one who is brainwashed. Anybody who can deny all of the evidences of atrocities that have been perpetrated by the Soviet Union over all the years, both to their own citizens and to all of the captive nations, has got to be in complete denial.
well, maybe Iam but I've never told USSR was good but still show me the evidences of atrocities so we can discuss.
Quote:
Oh, by the way, did you ever read Vladimir Rezun's books?
sure, all of them - was a big fan 20 years ago .
Germany kept the best records pre war, during the war and post war. No evidence to back up these generalisations that were created to put fear into the German population and army. So neither would give up til the bitter end. Sadly the Allies used the same stories to isolate the USSR and added their own - Berlin Airlift etc.
Germany kept the best records pre war, during the war and post war. No evidence to back up these generalisations that were created to put fear into the German population and army. So neither would give up til the bitter end. Sadly the Allies used the same stories to isolate the USSR and added their own - Berlin Airlift etc.
but they lost alot of documents during the Defeat. Number of casualties are impossible to track since December 1944.
Btw this week the Russian State archive started to upload all the captured German WW2 docs http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/nodes/1-fond-500 - will be available online to everyone .
Germany kept the best records pre war, during the war and post war. No evidence to back up these generalisations that were created to put fear into the German population and army. So neither would give up til the bitter end. Sadly the Allies used the same stories to isolate the USSR and added their own - Berlin Airlift etc.
but they lost alot of documents during the Defeat. Number of casualties are impossible to track since December 1944.
Btw this week the Russian State archive started to upload all the captured German WW2 docs http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/nodes/1-fond-500 - will be available online to everyone .
Yes they lost alot of documents but not that many that it wouldn't have shown the number of rapes in Berlin at a high rate - 100,000 impossible.
Yes they lost alot of documents but not that many that it wouldn't have shown the number of rapes in Berlin at a high rate - 100,000 impossible.
I wonder why Beevor and his followers never quote hospital reports as they are available.
Hospital reports, police reports, military reports post WW2 and so on. It's too convenient sometimes just to go with these cases of mass hysteria for the allies. Remember at the time the Allies were saying these things with no evidence. Churchill was busy preparing Operation Unthinkable - the Invasion of the Soviet Union. So these stories would help provide reason for the unprovoked attack if it happened. These stories were borrowed from the Nazi's by the Allies just like " the Iron Curtain ". It was wrongly credited to Churchill, actually Goebbels coined the phrase. Saying that the Soviet Union wanted to overrun Europe when it was Germany who attacked USSR but the Allies also used the same propaganda. Beevor is just another product of Institutional Historians. They print the Official party line without questioning or investigating. Using hearsay instead of facts - a usual Western flaw ( Patsies ).
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