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Do incapacitations count as a soldier's kills?

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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Quote:
I noticed you used the phrase "virtually remake", which indicates to moi, that you JOHNSILVER, are having trouble buying your own BS. I assure you no one in the past, present, or future, will be remaking brand new campaigns (virtual or otherwise) in MINUTES. You are simply on drugs.


That's nonsense on your part dudeski. Take BGEdit with a CC5 mod.. ANY, except for think it's Ortuna, that has some error and you can create entirely new teams out of it. Many designers left available in the DATA weapons that shouldn't have been available, so you can give either side WTF you want.. Just play the dang thing on the same map, same timeframe if you don't want to go further and make it quick-n-dirty, or open up freedeploy and go into more detail. Changing anything else will take more than...Half an hour to an hour for entirely new EVERYTHING on EVERY team? Try doing that on post CC5??

On Drugs?? WHERE is the tool like that for post CC5?? Where is the QClone, for Vehicles modding, Weapons modding???? On Drugs?? Nah... I KNOW WTF am talking about dude....

Werf
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DAK_Legion

Rep: 86.3
votes: 20


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Maybe Sulla can make a new CCMT with a campaign system??

He has the coded and was thinking in a new project for CC.....utopia


heia Safari!!
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
On Drugs?? WHERE is the tool like that for post CC5?? Where is the QClone, for Vehicles modding, Weapons modding???? On Drugs?? Nah... I KNOW WTF am talking about dude....


Well, I disagree, me thinks you are clueless. One of the greatest joys of CCMT was the old JAVA based "tools" were not required. They were so "down and dirty" as we say in the trade. Hardly reliable either. And now you are bemoanig "where are our new tools?". Modern day progammers have more pride than the JAVA based hackers of the CC past.

Why don't you JOHNSILVER download NetBeans or something and take a hack at it yourself instead of squeeling like a stuck pig.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:54 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Quote:
Why don't you JOHNSILVER download NetBeans or something and take a hack at it yourself instead of squeeling like a stuck pig.


You call me clueless??? Getting on 10y since the "new" style of games came out and wondered why Matrix, or one of the gamers with software skills hadn't put one together. I've just gone back (for now) to CC5 and older titles to have to fun, tinkering around with what everyone else did and with what's available.. BGEdit, QClone and Freedeploy to a lesser extent.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:37 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Getting on 10y since the "new" style of games came out and wondered why Matrix, or one of the gamers with software skills hadn't put one together. I've just gone back (for now) to CC5 and older titles to have to fun, tinkering around with what everyone else did and with what's available.. BGEdit, QClone and Freedeploy to a lesser extent.


Me thinks Matrix has already publically stated that they are not in the business to make tools to sponsor modders. They said they were in the business of developing game software. Go figure, eh?

So I find myself hoping that TBF will obsolete every CC game that came before it. And now I am completely on board with the approach Matrix has taken. NO multiplayer, NO campaign mode, and NO modding by addition.  Idea

Perhaps that approach will obsolete threads like this one!
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:05 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Am with you on one aspect.. Forget the multiplayer part, got tired of that one when moved on from CC and went to Combat Mission years ago. Combat Mission, the 1st one had a much better multiplayer setup all around back then.

Fail to see how not having campaigns is a positive, since as far as I know (not familiar with RTB) CCMT is the only title that they took them out of and then afterwards, like they realized it was a mistake.. Added them back again.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Fail to see how not having campaigns is a positive, since as far as I know (not familiar with RTB) CCMT is the only title that they took them out of and then afterwards, like they realized it was a mistake.. Added them back again.


So, now you stoop to outright deceit. As Schrecken mentioned, they wanted us to have what the USMC was using. And I am guessing the USMC had no need for a campaign game.  Idea CCMT was derived from CCM (Close Combat Marines). You can find both games present in the Combat Camera area, so you can make your own comparisons.

Furthermore, COI doesn't exactly have a campaign game that is equivalent to what you get with CC4, CC5, WAR, TLD, etc. It is stuff like this where you earn your moniker of "clueless", despite your "extensive" experience that you keep telling us about.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.3
votes: 4


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Quote:
COI doesn't exactly have a campaign game that is equivalent to what you get with CC4, CC5, WAR, TLD, etc


Are you enjoying your child like tantrum here? THEN stating in the above quote.. NOTHING but the obvious?? OF COURSE the campaign mode in both COI and CC3 is different!! Anyone who has ever played them 1 time would see that!
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
since as far as I know (not familiar with RTB) CCMT is the only title that they took them out of ...


johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Are you enjoying your child like tantrum here? THEN stating in the above quote.. NOTHING but the obvious?? OF COURSE the campaign mode in both COI and CC3 is different!! Anyone who has ever played them 1 time would see that!


So now you confess you have never played COI or CC3 even one time. BTW, these are your quotes. And regarding "NOTHING but the obvious", me still thinks you are clueless.
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TheImperatorKnight

Rep: 30.4
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Good to see my topic has been derailed again Stwa  Wink

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the undynamic risk-like Close Combat strategic system is awful and needs replacing. I do think having a campaign mode is necessary, and I can imagine one where battlegroups (if they have vehicles and unobstructed) could move over multiple provinces and give "support" to other nearby battlegroups if they weren't engaged. Kinda the way the Panzer Corps system works. If several units surround an enemy unit, you gain bonuses to the attack, and you also have a chance of forcing the enemy to surrender.


First picture, imagine this is a new Close Combat strategic map and each hex is a Close Combat tactical map. In this case, the armoured battlegroup can move so many maps (indicated by the white hexes) and is going to move over three maps in one turn to engage the engineer battlegroup on the river map. Having something similar to this in CC would make the strategic system a lot more dynamic.


Second picture, the infantry attacks and wins against the artillery on the airfield, and because the artillery is surrounded by other units (even by it's own units) it can't retreat and is therefore forced to surrender. And because the friendly 12 strength battlegroup was next to the infantry, there were bonuses to the attack in the first place (in this case, initiative, which decides who fights first, but in Close Combat, it could be an additional artillery strike or perhaps the infantry are loaned a handful of tanks for the battle).

Also, just to point out, Panzer Corps is a series owned by Matrix, so it's not unreasonable to assume that a strategic system like this couldn't be created by them.


I have a Close Combat Youtube Channel

My Small Maps Mod for Close Combat: Gateway to Caen. Install guide and discussion
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

TheImperatorKnight wrote (View Post):
Good to see my topic has been derailed again Stwa  Wink


My bad, so my apologies (to you) for said derailment.

The Panzer Corp idea might work, but would be better as WEGO. My kids started pushing back on IGO/UGO about the time they reached the age of 12.
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TheImperatorKnight

Rep: 30.4
votes: 1


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
My bad, so my apologies (to you) for said derailment.


Nah, I expected this would happen. It always does Laughing

Stwa wrote (View Post):
The Panzer Corp idea might work, but would be better as WEGO. My kids started pushing back on IGO/UGO about the time they reached the age of 12.


I'll admit I had to look up the terms so for anyone not sure -

"WeGo is a turn-based style of gameplay where orders are given for both sides, and then executed simultaneously. During the execution phase, no player input is allowed." which is the way it currently works in the current Close Combat strategic system. "I go You go" is the system used in Panzer Corps.

I would say that the WeGo system makes a lot more sense. But you can adapt the Panzer Corps system to WeGo for Close Combat.

Ok because I'm really not a fan of the current strategic system and because I want to offer a solution and not just a complaint, I'm going to offer an example as to how the Close Combat strategic system could be improved using a more dynamic system I suggested in my previous post. Here's the theoretical dynamic Close Combat system -



Rules:
1. Motorized Battlegroups can move up to 3 hexes whilst non-motorized can move 1
2. A Battlegroup not connected to a supply depot is classed as being "Surrounded" and will receive no supplies
3. Surrounded battlegroups that have less Victory Locations at the end of a battle (because they lost the battle) will also have a 50% chance of completely surrendering to the enemy and removed from the game
4. Non-engaged battlegroups will give "support" to battlegroups in touching hexes in the form of additional units and off-site mortars and artillery
5. Support units can only be given to units if they're connected by Victory Locations
6. Support off-site artillery and mortars can be given regardless if there's a connection

Ok, let's see what happened in the picture above.

3 attempted to encircle 4 and move to where 8 is now (moving 3 hexes). But 2 also moved into the same province (WeGo) and so blocked 3's path. Also 1 moved forwards, so now 3 is totally surrounded and cannot move or receive supplies. Worse, if 3 loses his battle with 2 (loses any Victory Locations on the tactical map) there's a chance 3 will surrender because it cannot retreat.

Plus, to make things worse for the German player, 4 is still in supply from 1 2 and 6 and so will not surrender unless it loses all Victory Locations on the tactical map. If 2, 5, 6 or 7 lose all Victory Locations they can withdraw to non-occupied hexes. 4 cannot withdraw because you cannot have 2 units in the same province and so would be forced to surrender too (in this example, they've technically already fought)

8 will give 2 extra support because it's next to them and also isn't engaged in combat. 8 will send 2 an extra platoon of soldiers to help fight with the tanks, and also an extra artillery strike. 1 will not be able to send infantry to fight because 3 controls the Victory Locations on that side of the map. But 1 will still send an additional artillery strike to both 2 and 4. 8 will also reinforce 6 with artillery and infantry. Whereas 3 5 and 7 cannot support each other because they're all engaged.

----

In my opinion, this would make the game more interesting, and give the strategic map more depth, without taking away from the tactical combat. In fact, the tactical combat will be improved with the additional support the battlegroups can receive from nearby non-engaged units. It will also allow a true breakthrough to occur as a motorized unit could theoretically drive three provinces into the rear of the enemy and perhaps even cut off supplies.

The only downside is that you'd need more maps in the game than you currently get in order to make this system as dynamic as possible. Wait... that's not a downside! More maps please!


I have a Close Combat Youtube Channel

My Small Maps Mod for Close Combat: Gateway to Caen. Install guide and discussion
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Pete

Rep: 118.1
votes: 12


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

My guess is that CCMT does not have a campaign mode because the developers were unable to figure out how to move up to 10 players to the next map and/or the Marine Corps didnot require one. But if we want to find out we should just ask Sulla shouldn't we?
Anyway, I own CCMT too but don't like to play it for several reasons, maps are too big, infantry take too long to get from A to B, it does not have a campaign mode and probably more. What I do like is the modding potential in the sense that it is possible to more accurately recreate battles because of the editable deployment zones and what units where to put.


Dulce Bellum Inexpertis
(War is delightful to those who have no experience of it.)
Our facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/buckandpete/
Our website: https://themodsection.net/
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Pete

Rep: 118.1
votes: 12


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

I agree with TIK that a hex based stratmap with the features of common hex based games would greatly improve the strategic map experience. I do need to point out that right now we can also create a hex based stratmap for CC and that we can make battle groups jump 1 or more maps. You just need to create more exit vl's in all directions. When you occupy  exit vl's that take you 1 or 2 maps down the stratmap you can choose what map to move to. But we can not limit this to certain types of battle groups. This is theory of course because although I have considered this for a mod I have not actually tried it yet.


Dulce Bellum Inexpertis
(War is delightful to those who have no experience of it.)
Our facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/buckandpete/
Our website: https://themodsection.net/
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Pete wrote (View Post):
My guess is that CCMT does not have a campaign mode because the developers were unable to figure out how to move up to 10 players to the next map and/or the Marine Corps didnot require one. But if we want to find out we should just ask Sulla shouldn't we?


The USMC probably followed a standard protocol for acquisitions of any kind where they (the USMC) stated their requirements, and then requested a proposal. This RFP probably did not include provisions for a campaign game or mode.

Good campaign game ideas come and go. Remember Gary Childress. He advocated a hex map, but for use on handhelds.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Putting together a campaign mode for CCMT was easy. I even went so far as to develop map schematics for the various theaters. Here is one for the advance on Cherbourg. But, there is one for all of Normandy too. I did the same for the Battle of the Bulge and Omaha Beach.

It was a lot of fun making these, and the campaign game is not buggy like the CC varients.
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Pzt_Kanov

Rep: 14.2
votes: 9


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:25 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

why cc2redux didn't take off with the CC2 crowd as they were 100% into single multiplayer battles? why didn't they got excited as hell and then proceeded to revitalize the multiplayer scene?

Maybe CCMT arrived too late when there was no one that played CC2, Or were already used to the quirks and looks of CC2 and couldn't move on.

I think it was the fact that you can't issue points to a side to somehow limit them in what you can pick. That's the real killer of this game IMO. Sure you can have like a gentlemen agreement and choose only infantry of certain kind etc but really, you need a system built into it to make it desirable for the people to actually want to play it competitively.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:45 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Pzt_Kanov wrote (View Post):
I think it was the fact that you can't issue points to a side to somehow limit them in what you can pick. That's the real killer of this game IMO. Sure you can have like a gentlemen agreement and choose only infantry of certain kind etc but really, you need a system built into it to make it desirable for the people to actually want to play it competitively.


Hi Kanov, I hope you are doing well.

First of all, a lot of people that did get CCMT, still don't understand its capabilities. First of all, USMC used an officer that would design multiplayer scenarios for its training center participants. The designer of any scenario has the ability to LOCK that scenario, so that the participants cannot make changes to the teams that have been assigned to them. This can also be done with CCMT.

In their circulars about CCM, the USMC reminded everyone that CCM was for training and tactics, not for competition. In fact, the initial release of CCMT, did not show or in some cases, even use victory locations, because the USMC did not stress victory locations in their training sessions. The USMC explained that small unit battlefields and battles were more fluid and dynamic. Stressing victory locations might result in a lack of dicilpline that originates from the human behavior of competition.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:23 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

The main issue with the community and CCMT resides in the resident players themselves. CCS members just refuse to accept the fact that what motivates them to a CC title, is the arcade nature of that title.

Even, the game designers can get into the act. For GTC, a totally arcade version of a flame Croc was provided, while the designers, and others described to CCS members that its in-game attributes were grounded in historical fact. Of course, most of THAT turned out to be BS.

Gamers don't just want CC to be an arcade game. They insist on it.


Last edited by Stwa on Sat May 09, 2015 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:40 am Post subject: Re: CC Modern Tactics First Impressions Video (don't tell St Reply with quote

Even Matrix and its developers made CCMT into an arcade game  Exclamation

Thats right, USMC would not allow Matrix to use its weapon data in CCMT, so before the initial release of CCMT, developers were changing the weapons to insane levels of lethality.

Why? Because EVERYONE would get a kick out of that. In some cases you could win the scenario, just using off map artillery barages alone.
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