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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Polish government officials showed displeasure at Russia over the Ukraine by destroying their WW2 monuments located in Poland.. Looks like Russia is now outraged:


Russian monuments
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Polish government officials showed displeasure at Russia over the Ukraine by destroying their WW2 monuments located in Poland.. Looks like Russia is now outraged:


Now that the Poles are firmly aligned with the West, they are looking forward to all becoming part of the LGBT community and inviting Muslim asylum seekers into Poland by the millions. Meanwhile, David Cameron remains in the closet.


Link
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vobbnobb

Rep: 63.2
votes: 6


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Poland and Russia have been going at it before WW2 I guess, haven't had the time to pick up some books on some pre ww2 events between the two, but would like to.


My WW2 CC Series TimeLine
http://tinyurl.com/n2vrec5
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sod98

Rep: 11.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

[quote="johnsilver";p="81071"]Polish government officials showed displeasure at Russia over the Ukraine by destroying their WW2 monuments located in Poland.. Looks like Russia is now outraged:

The Poles helped liberate their own country by being part of the Red Army. Really it's just more thoughtless behavior by those who didn't fight in WW2.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Quote:
Now that the Poles are firmly aligned with the West, they are looking forward to all becoming part of the LGBT community and inviting Muslim asylum seekers into Poland by the millions. Meanwhile, David Cameron remains in the closet.


Wow.. Saying they should have just been more culturally sensitive to every one's point of view? Like.. Instead of tearing down the rusted and crumbling down old monument? Give it a fresh, rainbow colored coat of paint and for good measure? Put up the Hammer & sickle.. Stars & Bars.. Republic Flag of Poland..

Anyone who comes along could jab one in the ground so as his/her/it's feelings are not hurt.
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Pzt_Crackwise

Rep: 64.9
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Poland has been devastated by the wars it fought against Kingdom of Sweden and Tsardom of Russia back in the 17th century. Since then they have had conflicts with Tsardom of Russia and then Soviet Union almost continuously.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

johnsilver wrote (View Post):
Wow.. Saying they should have just been more culturally sensitive to every one's point of view? Like.. Instead of tearing down the rusted and crumbling down old monument? Give it a fresh, rainbow colored coat of paint and for good measure? Put up the Hammer & sickle.. Stars & Bars.. Republic Flag of Poland..Anyone who comes along could jab one in the ground so as his/her/it's feelings are not hurt.


Perhaps, but Poland has been mired in the East/West thingy for centuries. And now days, alignment with the West means you must become gay and you must embrace Islam. Not that Islam is that bad. Being gay is no longer optional (a choice) like it once used to be. Resistance is futile.  Razz
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sod98

Rep: 11.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Pzt_Crackwise wrote (View Post):
Poland has been devastated by the wars it fought against Kingdom of Sweden and Tsardom of Russia back in the 17th century. Since then they have had conflicts with Tsardom of Russia and then Soviet Union almost continuously.


Lets not forget that they also fought Nazi Germany and these monuments represented that. Have they also ripped down other monuments from previous conflicts - WW1  Tannenberg Memorial in Poland ( German ). Or even destroyed the Concentration Camps that are tourist attractions within Poland ? Sadly Poland is known as the door mat to Russia - you have to walk over it to get at Russia.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Pzt_Crackwise wrote (View Post):
Poland has been devastated by the wars it fought against Kingdom of Sweden and Tsardom of Russia back in the 17th century. Since then they have had conflicts with Tsardom of Russia and then Soviet Union almost continuously.


I meant no disrespect toward the Polish people with my jest.  Embarassed

Which Polish leader, early in the war said Poland, throughout history just had plain bad luck with allies? Was it one of the leaders (western backed) in exile in England?
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Siwy89

Rep: 13.1


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:35 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

In nowadays Poland, soviet soldiers (which were "liberating" Poland) are considered as invaders, even worse than Wehrmacht. At first they were cooperating with polish resistance fighters, then when NKWD came, partisans were executed. My grandma told me about soviet's atrocities- they were raping, drunking and stealing all they can get.

Maybe now you can understand why there are soviet's monuments falling in Poland. Polish soldiers that were representing pre-war goverment were fighting with allies in Africa, Italy, France, Holland, Germany. Polish people's army that fought besides soviets was an invention of Stalin only to bring Poland to communist side. This is really complex, but if you are interested I encourage you to read about it.

BTW Russian goverment refuses to send us back wreckage of presidential Tupolev (catastrophy in 2010) and yet they have impudence about telling us what to do in our own country.

Finally, to be clear I don't want to make some anti russian movement here, I have some friends that are Russians and I like them very much, but ordinary people must be separate from government actions and complex history. As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Siwy89 wrote (View Post):
As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.


But all that is going to change. This change is the price Poland must pay its Western Allies. Before long Poland will be just like Holland, except for the high income thing.
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johnsilver

Rep: 61.4
votes: 4


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Stwa wrote (View Post):
Siwy89 wrote (View Post):
As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.


But all that is going to change. This change is the price Poland must pay its Western Allies. Before long Poland will be just like Holland, except for the high income thing.


Yeah.. Change is good, but the liberal ideals being brought in sometimes suck the last couple of decades. The newer, eastern bloc countries really should pick and choose what to incorporate. Cut out the decadent parts.
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sod98

Rep: 11.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Siwy89 wrote (View Post):
In nowadays Poland, soviet soldiers (which were "liberating" Poland) are considered as invaders, even worse than Wehrmacht. At first they were cooperating with polish resistance fighters, then when NKWD came, partisans were executed. My grandma told me about soviet's atrocities- they were raping, drunking and stealing all they can get.

Maybe now you can understand why there are soviet's monuments falling in Poland. Polish soldiers that were representing pre-war goverment were fighting with allies in Africa, Italy, France, Holland, Germany. Polish people's army that fought besides soviets was an invention of Stalin only to bring Poland to communist side. This is really complex, but if you are interested I encourage you to read about it.

BTW Russian goverment refuses to send us back wreckage of presidential Tupolev (catastrophy in 2010) and yet they have impudence about telling us what to do in our own country.

Finally, to be clear I don't want to make some anti russian movement here, I have some friends that are Russians and I like them very much, but ordinary people must be separate from government actions and complex history. As for Islam and gays- 0,1 % of Poland's inhabitants are muslim, gay marriage is not recognized so I honestly dont know what you are saying Stwa.


I am amazed that people in Poland would think that the USSR era would be worse than the Nazi German era. Considering at least 1 in 5 Poles died during WW2, concentration camps, death of almost all of Polish Jews - approx 3,000,000 and in 1945 reduced to 45,000, roving death squads, enforced hunger, lots of young non jewish men drafted into German army and many more things.Yes the USSR was oppressive, aggressive and ruthless. But they were never a match for Nazi Germany.

I guess with time people see things differently. Just like the rise again of nationalism in Europe today, old sins are forgotten. Also the old German monuments to WW1 still stand in Poland while USSR ones are pulled down.
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kweniston

Rep: 51.7
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

I thought Dutch anti-Russian propaganda was bad, but the Polish media are really incredible. The Russia of today is being completely mixed up with the Soviet regime, let alone all the other BS concerning the Ukraine.

By rewriting history in this way, the world is being slowly prepared for a WWIII.
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sod98

Rep: 11.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

kweniston wrote (View Post):
I thought Dutch anti-Russian propaganda was bad, but the Polish media are really incredible. The Russia of today is being completely mixed up with the Soviet regime, let alone all the other BS concerning the Ukraine.

By rewriting history in this way, the world is being slowly prepared for a WWIII.


Agreed
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Siwy89

Rep: 13.1


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

I don't like it either how values are treated in what's today western civilization. Poles have mostly conservative mentality and I very doubt it that  it will change in e.g. a generation. Republic of Poland is inhabited by 95% people of the same religion, ethnicity and language and we would like it to stay that way.

300 christian families are to be brought to Poland as refugees from Syria and this is very controversial topic in my country, not to say about 2000 muslims that we have to accept because UE told us we must do it. We don't have good social policy so Poland is really transit country for muslims, they want to go mostly for Germany, Denmark, Sweden and so on.  

As for comparison- I compared soviets to wehrmacht, not to nazi Germany in general. 16 % of Poland's population just perished, mostly because of the nazis.

Kweniston- actually I dont support US and UE point of view about war in Ukraine, for me it is more about conflict of influence between US and Russia so who is right? Nobody. Polish media are brainwashing people with anti russian propaganda and I'm sick of that too, but when I write about soviets killing polish partisans it is not rewriting history- these are facts.

It is the same thing that we have to remind (mainly Americans) that there were no polish deaths camps but Nazi german extermination camps- this example of rewriting history is very dangerous.
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sod98

Rep: 11.6
votes: 5


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

 

As for comparison- I compared soviets to wehrmacht, not to nazi Germany in general. 16 % of Poland's population just perished, mostly because of the nazis.

Using only Wehrmacht not Nazi' Germany would be creating a false truth in it's self. Wehrmacht were just a piece of Polish Occupation history during WW2. Many cases of ordinary soldiers taking part in atrocities along with SS and death squads who were responsible for the greater part. Also do a little checking on the figure of 16pc as two books I have read say in approximate terms - 20pc minimum or 1 in 5. A person called Peter Chen gives figures of 15pc but misses out persons like slave labourers, displaced person deaths and persons with no official identifications - poor and Gypies etc. Rewriting history again.

When you talk about how Soviets killed Partisans - what would you expect. They are Partisans / rebels / militia. Trying to overthrow a Govt.
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Siwy89

Rep: 13.1


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

I agree that nazi war crimes were much more devastating but that doesnt make red army a true liberating force and that was my point. Of course wehrmacht did participate in war crimes but on different scale than SS.

I live approximately 8 km from Auschwitz-Birkenau, in early 1945 Germans were retreating from that area and a bunch of ukrainian volunteers from SS-Galizien decided to burn my grandfather's village and kill all inhabitants. They didn't do it because of the intervention of wehrmacht colonel.

For me it was a difference between SS and Wehrmacht.

Polish partizans were (mostly) members of Armia Krajowa, military structure representing polish goverment on exile- they were rebels against nazis not soviets, but of course for Stalin they pose significant threat for his commies plans. They were trying to re-establish pre war polish goverment but that  didn't happen. Ever. Period of nearly 50 years of USSR occupation began.
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kweniston

Rep: 51.7
votes: 1


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

And that is the point. Communism is still fresh in the memory, so it is very easy to transpose those bad memories onto the current populations in the West to induce a fear of Russia. I recently attended a small conference here in Holland where several senior newspaper editors were present (topic was MH17 and the role of the media), and they specifically stated they have never seen the level of propaganda so bad, it's even worse than in the days of the (previous) Cold War. That confirmed my own opinion of the matter. Very dangerous times we live in, it feels like a interbellum period, waiting for the next big one.
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Stwa

Rep: 308.9
votes: 16


PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Poles remove Russian WW2 monument Reply with quote

Some things never change at CCS. When you get one or more Europeans posting in a thread the conversations eventually turns to communism, or fascism, or Nazis, or all of the above.

The West has moved away from all that. It is a [Brave] New World Order, and now on face book, you can identify yourself as 1 of 44 possible genders. Going forward, the idea is to fake mate with all the genders. If you do not choose homosexuality, the West will make your life miserable.
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