Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
I've seen similar things happen in other mods, like when a single guy goes rambo in a building with a stolen MG and wipes out 3 squads, or you charge a full squad into a building and they can't find the last unconscious guy among the dead bodies, lone unconscious guy awakes among a sea of blood, dead buddies and enemy soldiers, grabs his knife and goes berserk slashing (yes with the knife) up the whole squad, or two squads. ;)
Rare, but it happens.
Re this mod, with full respect to the mod makers, imho I find the mod unplayable for good H2H GCs because it is so heavily weighted in favour of the germans. Ruskies stand no chance in the GCs I've played. It seems to me that something must be amiss because stalingrad would surely have been lost to the germans if things were this way in reality.
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
I don't see it that way. If the setting are right the Russians can hold out from my experience with 2 decent/even players.
But in reality the Germans did defeat the Russians (with heavy losses) all the way to the banks of the Volga. At several different points the Germans were set up with MGs and guns within sight of the crossings.
The problem was in the end with hard fighting and reinforcements the Russians held out along a sliver of land on the west side of the river. Nothing else. That would be about one or two maps in the mod by about the 5th of October. Hitler wanted a final push/attack around October 13th to wipe out the final pockets of Russians. They couldn't do it.
Seems about right historically. In my experience playing Volga Push 2 the Germans have a difficult time on several different maps with the heavy armored BGs only having infantry BGs with a few Stugs and Paks to deal with the KV-1s and T34s. Lose a couple of Stugf and the German IDs are weak on the offensive somewhat. The Germans also have to make some very difficult decisions about by-passing Russian units, taking maps and leaving maps unoccupied.
I bet you (I know what an excellent player you are) could give me (and many others) fits playing as the Russian .
Re this mod, with full respect to the mod makers, imho I find the mod unplayable for good H2H GCs because it is so heavily weighted in favour of the germans. Ruskies stand no chance in the GCs I've played. It seems to me that something must be amiss because stalingrad would surely have been lost to the germans if things were this way in reality.
German doctrine and training was superior. Also german doctrine expected a large city like Stalingrad to be bypassed, not fought house-to-house. Still, I'm of the opinion that 'Fall Blau' was already a failure when 4th Panzer Army failed to encircle the vast majority of Red Army around Voronezh. They captured the city but not the guys... the same guys that months later encircled 6th Army.
Still I think same as you, especially in weaponry, Red Army is in general underestimated in most of WWII games or films. It's weird that are actually the germans' films and statements the ones that take really estimate soviet weaponry.
Then Dima will appear again stating negative to this, but I believe as you, that if the Whermatch would have been so powerful and better armed than Red Army, then would have won. He denies the fact that the PPSh was more effective than MP40 in close combat, but the truth is that Red Army almost won every significant street combat scenario. Examples are Tula, Rostov (twice), Stalingrad, 2nd Minsk, 2nd Kiev.
As I said before: doctrine, morale, tactic discipline and officers are more important than which weapon or which scenario.
Re this mod, with full respect to the mod makers, imho I find the mod unplayable for good H2H GCs because it is so heavily weighted in favour of the germans. Ruskies stand no chance in the GCs I've played. It seems to me that something must be amiss because stalingrad would surely have been lost to the germans if things were this way in reality.
German doctrine and training was superior. Also german doctrine expected a large city like Stalingrad to be bypassed, not fought house-to-house. Still, I'm of the opinion that 'Fall Blau' was already a failure when 4th Panzer Army failed to encircle the vast majority of Red Army around Voronezh. They captured the city but not the guys... the same guys that months later encircled 6th Army.
Still I think same as you, especially in weaponry, Red Army is in general underestimated in most of WWII games or films. It's weird that are actually the germans' films and statements the ones that take really estimate soviet weaponry.
Then Dima will appear again stating negative to this, but I believe as you, that if the Whermatch would have been so powerful and better armed than Red Army, then would have won. He denies the fact that the PPSh was more effective than MP40 in close combat, but the truth is that Red Army almost won every significant street combat scenario. Examples are Tula, Rostov (twice), Stalingrad, 2nd Minsk, 2nd Kiev.
As I said before: doctrine, morale, tactic discipline and officers are more important than which weapon or which scenario.
Exactly well stated...
Dima is playing poker game bluff, denying the fact Soviet war machine and tactics were far better suited for urban in your face close combat. And yes the Red Army assault squads massed large teams of dedicated PPSh squads, creative usage of females for snipers and night pilot sorties, and heavy armour that easily outclassed anything the Axis forces had available. Also the USSR had vast reserves and simply overpowered the Axis with huge manpower advantages. I was especially impressed with the Red Army elite Siberian divisions that were quite comfortable in the extreme cold, whereas the Germans were not. There is a very good reason why Imperial Japan never did want to mess with those Siberian divisions that bordered their possessions in China.
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
If someone study carefully Whermatch's real chances of a victory over allies, then one is amazed with such success they obtained. They crushed France, drove "desert rats" to egypt, decimated Royal Marine with submarine warfare an put Soviet Union in check. This achievements aren't even thinkable considering Whermatch real strenght in 1940.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
Mik,
Quote:
Re this mod, with full respect to the mod makers, imho I find the mod unplayable for good H2H GCs because it is so heavily weighted in favour of the germans. Ruskies stand no chance in the GCs I've played. It seems to me that something must be amiss because stalingrad would surely have been lost to the germans if things were this way in reality.
hopefully the PITF version will alllow to represent the combat inside Stalingrad more precisely.
But anyhow the Stalingrad battle was fought and won/lost on flanks where the Germans had the best units and the RA was counter attacking every other week. In the city itself the German could thrust to Volga in 1 day and after that they were fighting reinforcements crossing the river and actually they could not get to Volga fully as there was huge number of arty/ATG/tank pits firing directly from the East bank. I wonder if they actually needed it as the river as supply route was effeciently cut and fully covered by the German fire.
Hard to represent in CC5 scale - we will try best to do that in PITF.
For information of armchair-generals-who-know-it-all and for whom small arms win battles - Stalingrad (besides narrow 100m(?) line along Volga) was in the German hands till surrendering of AOK.6 in January 1943. And somehow stupid russkies who knew that they had a huge advantage in CQB due to their small arms didn't even dare to counter attack in the city in November....
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
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Dima is playing poker game bluff, denying the fact Soviet war machine and tactics were far better suited for urban in your face close combat. And yes the Red Army assault squads massed large teams of dedicated PPSh squads, creative usage of females for snipers and night pilot sorties, and heavy armour that easily outclassed anything the Axis forces had available. Also the USSR had vast reserves and simply overpowered the Axis with huge manpower advantages. I was especially impressed with the Red Army elite Siberian divisions that were quite comfortable in the extreme cold, whereas the Germans were not. There is a very good reason why Imperial Japan never did want to mess with those Siberian divisions that bordered their possessions in China.
Thanks DJ you've made my day again!
Could you please post some more of that?
Please tomorrow, so I will have something to laugh at again!
But anyhow the Stalingrad battle was fought and won/lost on flanks where the Germans had the best units and the RA was counter attacking every other week.
Well, 4th Panzer Army had to withdraw (some unfortunate guys got encircle though) during Operation Uranus. But the Stalingrad failure is beyond Uranus. I already told, that Fall Blau already failed by mid July. During the attack over Voronezh, 4th Army failed to encircle the whole 1st Ukranian Front. Only 40th Army got encircled. In Fall Blau directives, it was explicit that the whole Front should be captured or destroyed to allow Whermatch a 500 km drive with uncovered flank. Also Whermatch failed to capture most of bridgeheads along the Don. This was key also. The truth is that Whermatch strenght after Operation Typhoon was lesser than the actually needed by.
In the city itself the German could thrust to Volga in 1 day and after that they were fighting reinforcements crossing the river and actually they could not get to Volga fully as there was huge number of arty/ATG/tank pits firing directly from the East bank. I wonder if they actually needed it as the river as supply route was effeciently cut and fully covered by the German fire.
What about Pavlov's House and Tractor Factory? What about worker's apartments? 6th Army never controlled them fully. These key buildings were the ones that prevented Stalingrad fall. They were few, yes, but they were key. The germans never gained a strong enough bridgehead to cross the Volga. That's a fact, and that's why RA arty could play havoc from eastwards. Hoth's 4th Army was probably the best Panzer Army in the whole front at that time, and it was unable to cross the Volga south of Stalingrad due to RA resistance. Maybe RA tanks and guns weren't so horrible as you think.
For information of armchair-generals-who-know-it-all and for whom small arms win battles - Stalingrad (besides narrow 100m(?) line along Volga) was in the German hands till surrendering of AOK.6 in January 1943. And somehow stupid russkies who knew that they had a huge advantage in CQB due to their small arms didn't even dare to counter attack in the city in November....
I've never said that small arms win wars, or that street combat is essential for success. Only pointed out that you minimized PPSh's effect in easter front, and that in small arms combat, usually the RA was better suited. One good example of what I mean si Tula. Tula itself, was really necessary for Guderian's drive on Moscow. GDIR managed to conquer half of the city in less than a day (same as Stalingrad), but a lone 4 story brick apartment store behind an anti-tank trench stalled Gross Deuschtland advance. Outside the city, 2nd Panzer Army nearly encircled 156th NKVD Regiment, 732nd AA Regiment and 260th Rifle Division that were helping Tula's garrison inside. An attack from the 32nd Tank Brigade consisting in 5 KV-1, 7 T34, 22 T60, and 960 men from it's Rifle Batallion cleared the zone, while city's defenders where fighting GDIR.
So the whole 2nd Panzer Army got stopped by a single Rifle Division with help of two regiments and a single tank brigade.
Even though that by December 1941 2nd Panzer Army strenght was decimated, statements from Eberbach consider battle strength for the kampfgruppe that was ordered to attack Tula adequate for the task. They attacked on the morning of the 30th November with a conglomeration of 55 Panzer II and III tanks, formed into basically 2 Battalions, one from each regiment, supported by what was probably (although exact number were not given) a couple of companies from the Panzer Grenadier regiment (3rd) of the 3rd Panzer Division mounted in half tracks, and then a portion of the Grossdeutschland regiment mounted on trucks. (I'd guess about a very weak BN worth). It also said the Russians had at least some 45mm AT guns to go along with the 37mm guns from the 732nd AA regiment, which did a pretty good number on the German HT's and PZII's, along with knocking out a few PZ III's as well.
This simply cripple your statements about PzIII specs against small caliber soviet AT Guns.
Sources from "Moscow 1941: Hitler's First Defeat" by Robert Forzcyk and "Panzer Leader" by Heinz Guderian.
And Operation Typhoon is indeed THE most decisive operation of the whole war for Whermatch. It dictated an after and before for the fate of III Reich.
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
How far do you think Pavlov's House was from the banks of the Volga?
Are you remembering that the tractor factory and the apartments (which ones?) might be part of the exact strips under German control that we are mentioning?
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
Fiestita,
Quote:
Well, 4th Panzer Army had to withdraw (some unfortunate guys got encircle though) during Operation Uranus. But the Stalingrad failure is beyond Uranus.
again, the battle of Stalingrad was decided on flanks and if there was no big counter attack of the Stalingrad front in September 1942 the city would be cleared in September.
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I already told, that Fall Blau already failed by mid July.
ahha, that's probably why S.Timoshenko has sent a request to Stalin asking for the evacuation of the city on July 17th.
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What about Pavlov's House and Tractor Factory? What about worker's apartments? 6th Army never controlled them fully. These key buildings were the ones that prevented Stalingrad fall. They were few, yes, but they were key.
again, if there were no counterattacks of the Stalingrad front that were forcing the German to keep the strongest and most combat effective units north of the city there was no Pavlov's house or other places in Stalingrad remained in the RA hands.
btw, by November 1942, there were less point of resistant remained in Stalingrad than in Berlin in 1945.
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The germans never gained a strong enough bridgehead to cross the Volga. That's a fact, and that's why RA arty could play havoc from eastwards. Hoth's 4th Army was probably the best Panzer Army in the whole front at that time, and it was unable to cross the Volga south of Stalingrad due to RA resistance.
why would they need crossing Volga?!
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Maybe RA tanks and guns weren't so horrible as you think
where did I tell that RA tanks and guns were so horrible in late 1942?
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I've never said that small arms win wars, or that street combat is essential for success. Only pointed out that you minimized PPSh's effect in easter front, and that in small arms combat, usually the RA was better suited.
ok, then 3 questions:
why PPSh was fielded out by the RA?
why didn't the Germans implement SMG armed units?
why didn't the Soviet Army have SMG units after WW2?
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This simply cripple your statements about PzIII specs against small caliber soviet AT Guns
oh really?
let me check:
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It also said the Russians had at least some 45mm AT guns to go along with the 37mm guns from the 732nd AA regiment, which did a pretty good number on the German HT's and PZII's, along with knocking out a few PZ III's as well
hmm, that actually makes me think you are a bit off...
again, the battle of Stalingrad was decided on flanks and if there was no big counter attack of the Stalingrad front in September 1942 the city would be cleared in September.
4th Panzer Army was situated in 6th Army southern flank during November 1942 and they were coped and forced to withdraw.
ahha, that's probably why S.Timoshenko has sent a request to Stalin asking for the evacuation of the city on July 17th.
Well, you already pointed out that fighting for the city, wouldn't affect the war in any way. RA only had to wait german drive to cease from self starvation and then exploit their own drive. Rommel did the same with desert rats twice.
again, if there were no counterattacks of the Stalingrad front that were forcing the German to keep the strongest and most combat effective units north of the city there was no Pavlov's house or other places in Stalingrad remained in the RA hands.
But you are telling me that one just have to skip from existence the guys that held the strongest german units north to allow these units attack Pavlov's house? Wouldn't RA defend with more troops those buildings then?
If you think about military actions that way, then France wouldn't suffer such a quick defeat if Guderian's drive through Ardennes never occurred.
Doing so, they would have been able to clear out RA arty, and hold valuable bridgeheads. They should have done some with Don river bridgeheads. Crossing these rivers would have prevented Uranus from being such effective.
where did I tell that RA tanks and guns were so horrible in late 1942?
Without need of quoting, you just said that F-34 gun wasn't good even for piercing a Pz38t frontal plate, and that the T-34 tank did not solve it's mechanical problems until 1943. So I assume that you told so for 1942 tanks and guns too.
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
Quote:
4th Panzer Army was situated in 6th Army southern flank during November 1942 and they were coped and forced to withdraw.
read my replies please - I don't talk about November, I talk about September 1942!
check where 16.PzD, 3.MID, 60.MID, 76.ID, 305.ID were located since late August 1942 and why didn't they take part in September assault.
FYI 24.PzD was the weakest among them by September 1942 and now guess why it was assaulting the city while the strongest were north of it and didn't send single battalion to help.
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Well, you already pointed out that fighting for the city, wouldn't affect the war in any way. RA only had to wait german drive to cease from self starvation and then exploit their own drive. Rommel did the same with desert rats twice.
did I? where?
sounds kinda stupid to me...
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Without need of quoting, you just said that F-34 gun wasn't good even for piercing a Pz38t frontal plate, and that the T-34 tank did not solve it's mechanical problems until 1943. So I assume that you told so for 1942 tanks and guns too.
T-34 in 1941 was pretty different than T-34 in mid 1942 and very different from T-34 in 1943.
Most of problems were solved by the end of 1942 and that was one of the reasons why tank crews with 5-hour(!) training could make it so far from Don and Volga to encircle the whole AOK.6.
76mm AP shells were in abudance by that time as well.
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Assault Rifles became the standard weapon for infantry. AK47 fielded good rate of fire while giving more range and firepower.
ok, the last amendment of the RA Rifle Squad TOE was in December 1944 - it removed SMG from a rifle squad making it have 5 Carbines and 1 LMG.
Question:
why did they remove SMG from a rifle squad if they were mainly fighting in the cities that time and according to you had a huge advantage using PPSh?
Quote:
Same as above. Even when they didn't get enough numbers, their intentions were to replace MP40 with STG44. Assault Rifle era began in 1944
they had never meant to replace MP.40 with STG - K.98k should have been replaced with STG.
question again:
if the Germans were so badly outgunned by the RA PPSh armed teams why didn't they implement such teams for themselves?
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Again, SMG was outgunned by Assault Rifles.
ok, but the first AK-47 were fielded in 1951, so why didn't they have SMG armed squads in 1946?
Dima is playing poker game bluff, denying the fact Soviet war machine and tactics were far better suited for urban in your face close combat. And yes the Red Army assault squads massed large teams of dedicated PPSh squads, creative usage of females for snipers and night pilot sorties, and heavy armour that easily outclassed anything the Axis forces had available. Also the USSR had vast reserves and simply overpowered the Axis with huge manpower advantages. I was especially impressed with the Red Army elite Siberian divisions that were quite comfortable in the extreme cold, whereas the Germans were not. There is a very good reason why Imperial Japan never did want to mess with those Siberian divisions that bordered their possessions in China.
Thanks DJ you've made my day again!
Could you please post some more of that?
Please tomorrow, so I will have something to laugh at again!
I am the last generation that grew up in the Cold War and spent a lot of time studying Soviet War machine, Russian history and learned to appreciate how powerful Red Army was.
The Germans had Ukraianian volunteers, SS Foreigners, Romania, Bulgaria, Italia, Finland, and other allies. The Red Army all by itself managed to throw back the German invaders long before the West stepped foot again in Europe.
Far too modest, clever rouse...must have Aces up his sleeve, great poker game
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
Yeah they are like gold.
What I like to do is get rifle and/or meaningless squads to get the attention of the target close up, once they are in the firefight I bring up the SMG squad that was sitting behind them out of the fight on a run fast command to assault.
They work great on ambush as well but I find inside of certain buildings ambush isnt so good. They will spring the ambush when a few guys enter a doorway, while remainder of squad hasnt come through yet. Result is the 1st couple guys die, the rest take cover in the adjacent room.
Join Discord for technical support and online games.
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Stalingrad: Thoughts on Game Play
My guys don't take cover Mooxe , that leaves like six more guys with SMGs to charge the site. Seems in GJS, etc that the guys with the smg or stens (leaders) get whacked early... knocking out your most effective/team leader and close-in fighter .
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In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
.
, that leaves like six more guys with SMGs to charge the site. Seems in GJS, etc that the guys with the smg or stens (leaders) get whacked early... knocking out your most effective/team leader and close-in fighter 
.
