Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: The Big Red One
The Big Red One was the nickname for the US 1st infantry division. That division and the US 101st airborne division were the only experienced US divisions that took part in the campaign in northwest Europe... and there were about fifty infantry, armoured, and airborne divisions. On D-Day, the 1st infantry division and the 29th division landed on the Calvados coastline, which became known as Omaha beach. The Big Red One gained its experience in North Africa and Sicily... as far as I am aware.
Hey All;
I haven't seen "Stalingrad",But I saw nother good movie about this city : "Enemy at the gate".Its realy good movie about a young Russian Sniper who his name was I think "Vassily",Fighting against a german Elite sniper who "Ed Harris" play his roll.
I'm mainly talking about the future titles.Which subject would you like to see as a WWII movie?
-Kambiz
Women are like flowers, I appreciate their beauty and fragrance without picking them off the branch, then I continue on to the next flower
stalingrad fucking sucks, what a lame movie! same for enemy at the gates, its like a love movie with some sniping... :angry1 yah, constructive criticism
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: "Saving Private Ryan" and two questions
Hey Kami, only just came across your question whilst browsing through the forum, so I thought I'd add my bit for what it's worth. Saving Private Ryan was a great movie, but it it's very one-sided American movie and doesn't do justice to all the allied forces that fought at Normandy (British, Canadian, even the Australians were there; flying overhead in RAF squadons although I'm not sure if there were any Iranian/Persian troops there, probably not, although there may have been one or two in the Whermacht serving in the so-called "Ost" battalions).
I read this account of D-Day, where some German prisoners taken at Omaha beach were found to be orientals in Whermacht uniform. The US army eventually identified them as Koreans and learned that they had originally been drated by the Japanese into the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in the 1930's, captured by the Red Army at Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, imprisoned by the Russians then drafted into a penal battalion by the Red Army in 1941 to fight the Gemans who captured them and then drafted them into an Ost battalion which was sent to France, where they were captured by the US Army in 1944. What an adventure! Amost as good as a Kontiki tour. Apparently these Koreans were repatriated back to Korea when the war ended and were most likely drafted into a Korean army, either north or South to fight in the 1950-53 war. Now that would make a good WW2 movie.
Anyway back to SPR, much has been written about the movie and all the historical mistakes in it. I've no problem with this as it serves a great purpose, people watch the movie then go out and do the research to identify the obvious historical errors. This makes them learn more about history, especially an important period of world history. The mistakes aren't so glaringly obvious, like the US army aren't using M1 Abraham tanks to assault Omaha with the Germans defending the beachead with photon torpedoes. So a little bit of dramatic license is all right, but Hollywood can take things a bit too far. For example:-
1) "Pearl Harbour" (2001) Full of mistakes, you're better off watching "Tora Tora Tora". The worst mistake was the Americans making out that the attack in 1941 was the start of WW2. Hello!! China had been fighting the Japanese since 1931, not to mention the war in Europe. Plus the Australians had already started fighting the Japanese when they invaded Malaya at Kota Bharu before the attack on Pearl Harbour (Due to different time-zones).
2) "U-571" (2000) where an US navy submarine crew capture an Enigma machine off a German U-boat. It was actually the Royal Navy that captured a U-boat and secured the precious Enigma.
3) My favourite deliberate mistake, "Master and Commander The Far Side of the World" (2003) which is based on the Aubrey–Maturin book series by Patrick O'Brian. In the movie, Jack Aubrey takes on the French frigate Archeron, but in the book the enemy ship is an American - the USS Norfolk (The book is set during the War of 1812). It seemed the producers of the movie were uncomfortable with Americans being portrayed as the bad guys, so they rewrote it with the French as the bad guys instead (It works, everyone hates the French).
So there you have it, three examples of truth getting in the way of Hollywood. Still, it could have been worse. Imagine if Saving Private Ryan had been made in Bollywood in India instead? All that singing and dancing on Omaha Beach, let's not go there.
Pzt_Kami wrote:
At the last scenes of the movie,There's a battle between elements "US 101st AB" and a (probably) batalion of
"2nd SS Panzer division(Das Reich)".As far as I know these units
didnt met eachothers in Normandy(2nd SS had a month delay before arriving
the battlefield).
Sorry Kami, I digressed. The 2nd SS "Das Reich" Panzer Division, part of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps, was stationed around the French town of Montauban, near the Southern city of Toulouse, when D-Day occured (About 600km south of Normandy). They did not arrive in strength at Normandy until the 23rd June 1944, ten days after the supposed events at Ramelle took place. When they did arrive, it was outside Caen to take on the British and Canadians, not the Americans. Along the way, elements of the 2nd SS slaughtered around 640 French civilians in the village of Oradour-sur-Glane and razed the town. Most of the women and children were burnt to death when they were herded into the local church and it was deliberately burnt to the ground. That scenario was used in the movie "The Patriot" (2000) set during the American Revolutionary War. The British troops herded the town's population into the church and burnt it down, looked dramatic but totally innaccurate. No such event took place in that war.
Pzt_Kami wrote:
So,What are those two Tigers in the movie?
With regards to the Tiger tanks used in the movie. They were actually a mock-up Tiger top put on a T-34/85 chassis that the producers purchased from the Yugoslav Army. The difference is in the wheels, Tigers have interleaved wheels and those in the film clearly have the T-34 configuration. Same with the Marder and Wespe mock-up's they used, modern chassis with newly constructed upper works. Beats getting some old US army M48 Patton tanks and painting swastikas on them like they did in "Battle of the Bulge" movie. At least they did their best to recreate the tanks and how they would have looked at the time in SPR. Except that the Tigers have the insignia of the 1st SS Panzer Corps on them (Maybe the 2nd borrowed them for the battle of Ramelle). Hope that this helps, cheers!
I'm not sure if there were any Iranian/Persian troops there, probably not, although there may have been one or two in the Whermacht serving in the so-called "Ost" battalions
I heared spmthing about it and did a few research about it with no evidence of participation of Iranian Troops in Whermacht.But I'll be thankfull of anybody giving me any information about it.
God4Saken wrote:
I read this account of D-Day, where some German prisoners taken at Omaha beach were found to be orientals in Whermacht uniform. The US army eventually identified them as Koreans and learned that they had originally been drated by the Japanese into the Kwantung Army in Manchuria in the 1930's, captured by the Red Army at Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939, imprisoned by the Russians then drafted into a penal battalion by the Red Army in 1941 to fight the Gemans who captured them and then drafted them into an Ost battalion which was sent to France, where they were captured by the US Army in 1944. What an adventure! Amost as good as a Kontiki tour. Apparently these Koreans were repatriated back to Korea when the war ended and were most likely drafted into a Korean army, either north or South to fight in the 1950-53 war. Now that would make a good WW2 movie.
If so,I'm Agreed.It can be very impressive story and could be a good story for WWII movie too.
God4Saken wrote:
This makes them learn more about history, especially an important period of world history.
Indeed.WWII is one of the most important evet in last century and imo everyone must know a few about it.
God4Saken wrote:
Imagine if Saving Private Ryan had been made in Bollywood in India instead? All that singing and dancing on Omaha Beach, let's not go there.
Realy. Yes,Few companies in few countries can create such a movies.
God4Saken wrote:
Along the way, elements of the 2nd SS slaughtered around 640 French civilians in the village of Oradour-sur-Glane and razed the town.
I know about this tragedy.This event is one of the most important "Waffen-SS" war crimes.
God4Saken wrote:
Hope that this helps
It helped too mutch.Thank you very mutch for this excellent somehow article mate.
Regards
-Kambiz
Women are like flowers, I appreciate their beauty and fragrance without picking them off the branch, then I continue on to the next flower
Along the way, elements of the 2nd SS slaughtered around 640 French civilians in the village of Oradour-sur-Glane and razed the town. Most of the women and children were burnt to death when they were herded into the local church and it was deliberately burnt to the ground.
A tragic event no doubt, but the 'patriots' that caused that were the Marquis, who were no where to be found when that village got raided. Everything happens for a reason, it's not like they didn't know the German unit stationed there wouldn’t play rough if provoked.
I can't help but blame both the elements of the 2nd SS and Marquis. Its amazing the risk the Marquis took for such small gains. Not like they contributed to Germany's defeat in any significant way by executing that officer, more like pure reckless endangerment.
As for SPR, it's a hard movie to watch for me. Now that I am older and educated about the subject it's hard to see some stereotypes. Next time you watch it notice that every German soldier with his helmet/hat off is a skinhead. I implore someone to find me one picture of a WW2 German soldier with his head shaved. I have thousands of photos on top of mounds of books and I never once saw one German soldier without a full head of hair.
Last edited by Troger on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Troger, I'm a little disturbed with your contribution here regarding the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane. The justification given for the actions of the Waffen SS that day was the alleged killing by French resistance of one Sturmbannfuhrer Helmut Kampfe, who remains missing believed dead to this day (The 2nd SS Pz Div officers were under the impression that the resistance had abducted and killed him, but it was never proven, and anyway, that is irrelevant). For that, around 640 people, mostly defenceless and helpless civilians were killed by the Waffen SS. I wouldn't care if the French Resistance, (FFI or FTP "Commies") killed one or one hundred German soldiers, for the SS to do what they did that day is utterly barbaric and horrific, and is a war-crime regardless. Now what exactly constitutes a war-crime can be vigorously debated, but I don't think that there should be any arguement here with this attrocity.
The SS troops had a choice that day, they could have stopped to carry out the massacre or they could have continued on to Normandy to attack the allies without delay (Which was actually their primary mission). They made the choice to wipe out all those helpless civilians, purely due to their homicidal-come-psychopathic nature that these SS troops displayed (They had recently been transferred from the Russian Front where such attrocities were the norm and actively encouraged). Now if you thought the French "Commies" were cowardly in their attacks, how brave were the SS troops in brutally herding at gunpoint sceaming women clutching babies and other children into a church, barricading the building, then dousing it with petrol and setting it alight, ensuring that those inside either burned to death or died of asphyxiation? We'll never know how many of those soldiers would have been laughing or crying at what they were doing, but I'm willing to bet it was the former. How many SS or Whermacht officers were executed during WW2 after being found guilty of disobeying a direct order to commit an attrocity against civilains?
The Germans weren't in France as liberators bringing "Freedom, Liberty, Justice and Mocracey" to the country after deposing some dictator who supposedly had WMD's and they weren't peace-keepers maintaining law and order in a chaotic anarchistic environment. They had invaded the country and brutally enslaved the vast majority of it's population. Oradour-sur-Glane or Sebrinica or Nanking or Lidice or Katyn or Babi Yar or any other such attrocity should not be merely dismissed as the fault of a few so-called cowardly resistance members, they were the responsibility of those who perpertrated the massacres and those who encouraged such massacres to take place. We all enjoy playing this CC5 game and researching WW2 history, but we should never forget that millions died in that war and many millions more suffered horrendously, all beacuse some psychopathic, demented, amateur artist and failed soldier felt hard done by and wanted some Lebensraum.
By the way, Troger, you're quite right in your comments on the shaved heads that the German troops had in SPR. Photos of bareheaded men from most parts of Europe in the 1930's and 40's show them to have long hair on top and short back/sides. This was the popular hairstyle at the time, along wit the liberal application of brylcreme. The only people who went around with shaved heads were generally convicts (Heads were shaved in an effort to control lice and to humiliate the prisoner).
Troger, I'm a little disturbed with your contribution here regarding the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane. The justification given for the actions of the Waffen SS that day was the alleged killing by French resistance of one Sturmbannfuhrer Helmut Kampfe, who remains missing believed dead to this day (The 2nd SS Pz Div officers were under the impression that the resistance had abducted and killed him, but it was never proven, and anyway, that is irrelevant). For that, around 640 people, mostly defenceless and helpless civilians were killed by the Waffen SS. I wouldn't care if the French Resistance, (FFI or FTP "Commies") killed one or one hundred German soldiers, for the SS to do what they did that day is utterly barbaric and horrific, and is a war-crime regardless. Now what exactly constitutes a war-crime can be vigorously debated, but I don't think that there should be any arguement here with this attrocity.
The SS troops had a choice that day, they could have stopped to carry out the massacre or they could have continued on to Normandy to attack the allies without delay (Which was actually their primary mission). They made the choice to wipe out all those helpless civilians, purely due to their homicidal-come-psychopathic nature that these SS troops displayed (They had recently been transferred from the Russian Front where such attrocities were the norm and actively encouraged). Now if you thought the French "Commies" were cowardly in their attacks, how brave were the SS troops in brutally herding at gunpoint sceaming women clutching babies and other children into a church, barricading the building, then dousing it with petrol and setting it alight, ensuring that those inside either burned to death or died of asphyxiation? We'll never know how many of those soldiers would have been laughing or crying at what they were doing, but I'm willing to bet it was the former. How many SS or Whermacht officers were executed during WW2 after being found guilty of disobeying a direct order to commit an attrocity against civilains?
The Germans weren't in France as liberators bringing "Freedom, Liberty, Justice and Mocracey" to the country after deposing some dictator who supposedly had WMD's and they weren't peace-keepers maintaining law and order in a chaotic anarchistic environment. They had invaded the country and brutally enslaved the vast majority of it's population. Oradour-sur-Glane or Sebrinica or Nanking or Lidice or Katyn or Babi Yar or any other such attrocity should not be merely dismissed as the fault of a few so-called cowardly resistance members, they were the responsibility of those who perpertrated the massacres and those who encouraged such massacres to take place. We all enjoy playing this CC5 game and researching WW2 history, but we should never forget that millions died in that war and many millions more suffered horrendously, all beacuse some psychopathic, demented, amateur artist and failed soldier felt hard done by and wanted some Lebensraum.
Nothing to be disturbed about, I didn't have my hand it in . I called it a clearly criminal act, replace that with any word you choose, barbaric, ruthless, I'll agree with it. You can 'allege' that the French Maquis didn't execute Kampfe but everyone knows it happened (Not to mention the other handful of 2.SS soldiers killed by the Maquis during their deployment, but as you said irrelevant). I don’t think it justifies their actions and I didn't say that either.
I simply pointed out that it was a pointless act by the French resistance, which started the whole ordeal. It started the moment they got there with the constant badgering of German troops. They put the lives of innocent civilians at risk doing what they did and that's a fact. I made it quite clear that one should be equally pissed with the reckless endangerment displayed by the Maquis. There is no need to quote "commies". Because you are quite well educated on the subject, so if you have read anything on it, authors are always clear to point it out.
Make no illusions I am not apologizing for anyone or anything. Simply pointing the finger where in every direction it should be. Like I said, the ancient Semitic tradition 'eye for an eye' applied here. When the situation got real, the French Maquis had to be hunted down towns away...
Don’t get off-topic, read what I write and soak it all in. Let's keep this a civil conversation, cause that part me honoring the soldiers that herded civilians into burning buildings was unwarranted. Every Resistance has been an endangerment to the people they supposedly ‘fight’ for. They have their own agenda’s for what they do.
Last edited by Troger on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: Re: The Big Red One
G'day Troger, thanks for the lively debate and I’m more than happy to keep this conversation civil. Firstly I’m satisfied that you consider what happened at Oradour-sur-Glane as a criminal action, I’ve not a problem with that, and that you didn’t have any hand in it (What would an 80+ year old SS veteran be doing playing CC5 on the internet anyway?). I’ve just a problem with you apportioning blame onto the French resistance and referring to them in general terms as “cowards, losers and rats” (There were a lot of brave people in the resistance who made a major contribution to the defeat of Germany at a great cost to themselves).
I questioned your comments simply because you seemed to indicate that it was all the fault of the French resistance, in that if they hadn't attacked the Germans at the time, the 2nd SS would have just supposedly driven through the village without giving it a second glance (It’s bit like the way some people would say that a woman deserves to be raped because of her manner or dress sense, something I’m sure you don’t agree with). Now perhaps the Germans would have continued on to Normandy, or perhaps they would have attacked that village or some other village anyway, who knows? One thing's for sure, it's highly unlikely the 2nd SS would have set up a free medical clinic for the local French civilians or assisted the local Jewish population (If there were any left) with handing out food and gifts on the Purim holiday. They were indeed effective soldiers but a nasty bunch of individuals that I wouldn’t care to associate with.
The French (And many others) resisted the German occupation for obvious reasons (Mind you, after so many German invasions of their soil over the centuries, you'd think the French would have been quite used to it by then) and their actions were not "pointless". The resistance in all those occupied countries tied up huge amounts of German military/security resources, as well as assisting allied intelligence and downed aircrew. Plus as I said before, the Germans weren’t there as liberators, they were there as conquerors and people generally don’t like to be conquered, they do prefer to resist. The French resistance assisted the allied invasion by engaging the Germans and they had no guarantee that the Normandy invasion was going to be successful (“Independence” wasn’t guaranteed, if the resistance listened to Nazi propaganda radio, the Germans were throwing the allies off the beaches and invading England themselves). So they did what they could with the little resources and training that they had to harass, annoy, delay and generally upset the German military in support of the allied forces at Normandy and so their actions were not pointless. Yes they ran away and hid when the Germans came, but they’re a bunch of lightly armed, under-trained guerrillas totally outnumbered by a more heavily armed, elite SS division backed up by the Luftwaffe and other forces. I’d be running for the hills too (I’d rather be a live coward than a dead hero any day), what sane person would want to stay and fight in that situation? Standard guerrilla tactics, hit and run, piss the enemy off and all that
You can interpret the resistance’s actions as terrorism (In fact the Nazis referred to them as such) and the term "terrorism" actually comes from the French word Terrorisme. Its origins go back to 1795 when it was used to describe the actions of the Jacobin Club in post-Revolutionary France (The so-called “Reign of Terror”) who referred to themselves as Terrorists. But as we all know, one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. The vast majority of French people were supportive of the resistance movement (Commie or otherwise). Was the German “Werewolf” resistance movement in post-war Germany any more justified in their actions? Definitely not and that’s why it was unpopular, had little impact and was swiftly mopped up. At the end of the day Troger, the 2nd SS Pz Division was responsible for Oradour-sur-Glane, not the French resistance.
Secondly, why can’t I or anybody else here go “off topic” in these forums? I like going off topic.
MörserCarl wrote:
That division and the US 101st airborne division were the only experienced US divisions that took part in the campaign in northwest Europe On D-Day, the 1st infantry division and the 29th division landed on the Calvados coastline, which became known as Omaha beach. The Big Red One gained its experience in North Africa and Sicily... as far as I am aware.
Sorry Morser, I have to correct you here. The 101st Airborne had not been in combat prior to D-Day and had only been formed from mostly raw recruits in August 1942. It was the 82nd Airborne division, as well as the 1st Infantry Division, that had seen combat before D-Day (At Sicily and Italy). The Germans referred to them as the "Devils in baggy pants".
Last edited by God4Saken on Thu May 25, 2006 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total
My favourite WW2 movie is "Das Boot",
its a very realistic movie about a german Submarine.
Watching this movie in a cold, rainy and stormy night gives you a great imagination of these poor man in their submarine.
My favourite WW2 movie is "Das Boot",
its a very realistic movie about a german Submarine.
Watching this movie in a cold, rainy and stormy night gives you a great imagination of these poor man in their submarine.
I have to agree, it's a great movie.
The WORST WW2 film ever has to be Battle of the Bulge from 1965 with Henry Fonda. Sooooooooooooo disssapointing, bad acting, American tanks called Tigers etc
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. I called it a clearly criminal act, replace that with any word you choose, barbaric, ruthless, I'll agree with it. You can 'allege' that the French Maquis didn't execute Kampfe but everyone knows it happened (Not to mention the other handful of 2.SS soldiers killed by the Maquis during their deployment, but as you said irrelevant). I don’t think it justifies their actions and I didn't say that either.
