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TRIVIA: Are soldiers credited for killing surrendered troops?

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stiener

Rep: 33.7
votes: 3


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: historical back ground on the mod? Reply with quote

Hi guys
can anyone give a short historical back ground on the mod please?
didnt see one any where and im not up on alot of the operations in the russian campaign. are there tigers in relief attempt?
thanks


WHEN THE PIN IS PULLED "MR GRENADE"IS NOT OUR FRIEND !
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Searry

Rep: 3.2
votes: 1


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: Reply with quote

www.wikipedia.com
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squadleader_id

Rep: 53.1
votes: 7


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't you download and install the SDK videos?
If you're too lazy to read (like me Very Happy )...just watch the intro video.
BTW, great work on the SDK intro video!
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

squadleader_id wrote:
Didn't you download and install the SDK videos?
If you're too lazy to read (like me Very Happy )...just watch the intro video.
BTW, great work on the SDK intro video!


thanks squadleader_pl... although the video has still some minor spelling issues, its nice especially if you know russian or german, because i picked crucial speeches of the time regarding the battle (Hitler, Stalin and Göring)...

I am delighted to see that people like my short video...

@first post:

historically no tigers were in the theatre. Guderian asked from Hitler to hold the heavy tanks (Nashorn, Panther and Tigers) back until the German industry was able to supply sufficient numbers of them, so that they really could influence the outcome of a battle. Thus Guderians aim was to equalize numerical superiority of the Russian with German tactical superiority of the tank crews. Additionally in Dezember 1942 Guderian ordered the upgunning and upgrade of of all available PzIII to 7.5 KwK and the PzIV (short) to a PzIV
7.5. KwK(long version).

*KwK = Kampfwagenkanone ( roughly translated into english as "Main battle tank cannon"


To brave men few words are as good as many
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TheTomDude




PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm sorry to say that but historically there were some Pzkpfw VI Tiger in the combined relief forces of the 4th Panzerarmee (Panzergruppe Hoth and Armeeabteilung Hollidt). Panzergruppe Hoth included the 6th, 17th and 23rd Panzerdivision and parts/remains of the 4th Rumanian Army. Aa Hollidt, mainly Infantry Divs., did not take part in offensive manouevers.

I read books and have dvd's with reports about the whole battle of Stalingrad with contemporary witnesses of the Kessel as well as the of the relief troops. There were Tigers among the Panzergruppe Hoth! Maybe just a few an not very successful due to the adverse conditions of the russian winter, but they were definetely there.

Tom
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well I'm sorry to say that but historically there were some Pzkpfw VI Tiger in the combined relief forces of the 4th Panzerarmee

Actually 2.Kp/502.sPzbBt(consisted of 8 PzVIH1) were sent to Stalingrad area during 21-28 of December 1942...But when they reached the area they were included to newly forming sPzAbt.503. as 3.Kp. Whole sPzAbt.503 was sent to Caucasus...

so it looks like there wasn't any in Stalingrad area... just another urban legend Smile.

Quote:
Guderian asked from Hitler to hold the heavy tanks (Nashorn, Panther and Tigers) back until the German industry was able to supply sufficient numbers of them,

how about sPzAbt.502? Wink

Quote:
Additionally in Dezember 1942 Guderian ordered the upgunning and upgrade of of all available PzIII to 7.5 KwK and the PzIV (short) to a PzIV
7.5. KwK(long version).

yeah that's why ~50% of german tanx during Zitadelle were PzIII(lang) Razz.

u probably meant that all the new tanx since the end of 1942 should be produced with KwK37?
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Nembo

Rep: 36.7


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Polemarchos wrote:
Additionally in Dezember 1942 Guderian ordered the upgunning and upgrade of of all available PzIII to 7.5 KwK and the PzIV (short) to a PzIV
7.5. KwK(long version).


The Pz III was never armed with a 75mm gun, the biggest gun it ever mounted was the 50mm.


-Nembo
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Nembo wrote:
The Pz III was never armed with a 75mm gun, the biggest gun it ever mounted was the 50mm.

how about PzIIIN?
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Nembo

Rep: 36.7


PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Opps, I was thinking of the Kwk 40 lang when I made the comment. But I stand corrected.


-Nembo
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Guderian asked from Hitler to hold the heavy tanks (Nashorn, Panther and Tigers) back until the German industry was able to supply sufficient numbers of them,

how about sPzAbt.502? Wink

Quote:
Additionally in Dezember 1942 Guderian ordered the upgunning and upgrade of of all available PzIII to 7.5 KwK and the PzIV (short) to a PzIV
7.5. KwK(long version).

yeah that's why ~50% of german tanx during Zitadelle were PzIII(lang) Razz.

u probably meant that all the new tanx since the end of 1942 should be produced with KwK37?[/quote]

He dima,

just quoted the war diary and Guderian memoirs here.
You are right Tigers were committed earlier but as Guderian puts it only to deliver to the Russians the same psychological blow the T-34 delivered to the Germans. My intention was to tell that none taken part in Wittergewitter.

Actually most of the Pz. III N versions were former Pz. III A-M in upraded versions. Only 666 Pz.III N built from the scratch, 1213 totally deployed all over the war. Upgunning campaign was an important issue for Guderains contribution towards Zitadelle (Formally mansteins plan was not kursk but the "after hand plan") . Yes and sorry: the ongoing production issues during late winter 1942 was what I clearly said here.
should have been more precise.


To brave men few words are as good as many
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Dima

Rep: 87.3
votes: 16


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kosta,

Quote:
Only 666 Pz.III N built from the scratch, 1213 totally deployed all over the war.

tried to cross check the total number of PzIIIN.
According to "PzKpwIII in Action"(Squadron/Signal Pub.- Armor No24):
3 were built from PzIIIJ (they mean chassises here and after).
447 were built from PzIIIL.
213 were built from PzIIIM.
37 were converted from diferent PzIII during repairs.
Total - 700.

According to "Panzer III History of development and employment"(Ost Front - Panzer History series).
663 were built.
37 converted.
Total - 700.

According to "Panzer III German Medium Tank" (Tornado )
700 were built.

So looks like Panzerwaffe received only 700 PzIIIN. Smile

Quote:
as Guderian puts it only to deliver to the Russians the same psychological blow the T-34 delivered to the Germans.

wanna argue on that? Wink

Quote:
Upgunning campaign was an important issue for Guderains contribution towards Zitadelle (Formally mansteins plan was not kursk but the "after hand plan")

imo it wasn't really 'upgunning'....probably 'rearming' would be better word.
As PzIIIN became weaker than PzIIIM if we take into account AP capabilities..plus weaker armour.

cheers,
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: Yehhh Reply with quote

Yes


Quote:
Quote Polemarchos:
Additionally in Dezember 1942 Guderian ordered the upgunning and upgrade of of all available PzIII to 7.5 KwK and the PzIV (short) to a PzIV
7.5. KwK(long version).


Yes, In March 1942 a study was undertaken to determine if the Mk III L chassis would fit an Mk IV turret instead. Correct.
Analysis reviled amongst MUCH: The problem would be the number of changes needed, and the excessive weight. They dropped the idea.

They continued with 5cm, But in June 1942 they reduced the order of 1100 Mk III L, and later 447 was to be build with 7.5 cm Short L/24, more was build in other series as mentioned here (663+37=700). (1)

Quote:
Quote Polemarchos:
Guderian asked from Hitler to hold the heavy tanks (Nashorn, Panther and Tigers) back until the German industry was able to supply sufficient numbers of them,


Yes that’s right, Guderian talk of his opinion and express his opinion, but he was not the top man.. Corpral Hitler was !..
Guderian was in hard opposition to Hitler in this regard, and he was not afraid to say it in front of Hitler. Guderian was APPOSING the Kursk 1943 summer offensive at that time, he wanted defensive war there until enough tanks was build, and the availability of tanks was higher. (2)


Stalky

(1)Encyclopedia Of Germans Tanks of World War Two Jentz, / Chamberlain / Doyle
(2) Slaget om Kursk Niklas Zetterling Page 92-93-94
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Polemarchos

Rep: 27.3


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange

I also double checked the number of PzIII N in the WarDiary. Fact is it says 1213 total PzIII Ausf. N...

Now I may have found the reason for the discrepancy....
It contains only a copy of the issued order, nothing more so one can never know if order was actually taken out. To check this i searched for the following orders but no luck finding another mention about Pz.III N yet,
only that some are about to embark to Afrikakorps.

Original Text:

"First stock order of PzIII N is 666 to be completed until March 1943. Total number ordered is 1213., delivered until September"

Now ordered may not mean built.
We can assume that the second order was cancelled and the first wasnt on time , due to the problem they faced. Probably second order was cancelled in order to speed up the construction of other tank variants like Pz.IV or Panther. Sorry again next time i will double check and probably i shouldnt trust the War Diary allways. Rolling Eyes

@Stalky: Thanks for your post. Offcourse i know that guderian was not the top in the hierarchy, but he still had his fingers in Panzertruppen industry and shaped it. What you also have right is that his memoirs should not be taken for granted, thus he tried to create his own celebrity by shaping the facts a little... Still he is one of my favorite characters, especially - as you said - because he had the balls to argue with Hitler, while everybody else in the OKW was rather a slave than a general.


To brave men few words are as good as many


Last edited by Polemarchos on Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AT_Stalky

Rep: 27.4
votes: 10


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: Hmm Reply with quote

Hmm


Quote:
@Stalky: Thanks for your post. Offcourse i know that guderian was not the top in the hierarchy, but he still had his fingers in Panzertruppen industry and shaped it. What you also have right is that his memoirs should not be taken for granted, thus he tried to create his own celebrity by shaping the facts a little... Still he is one of my favorite characters, especially - as you said - because he had the balls to argue with Hitler, while everybody else in the OKW was rather a slave than a general.

Yes that exact what I meen, Smile Guderian said what you said he said. I just verifyed it from another source.
Though as we both said, he was "overruled" by Hitler.


Quote:
"First stock order of PzIII N is 666 to be completed until March 1943. Total number ordered is 1213., delivered until September" Now ordered may not mean built.


I dont know, but in March 1942 as they was to order IIIM model, it say "OKW was considering replacing as soon as possible the Mk III by the Panther."
(1)


Below is the forth and back of decision regarding the Mk IIIM model, it can make us see how they struggled to fined use of the Mk III production until it was replaced by better vehicles:

History of Mk IIIM
1. They ordered 1000 Mk IIIM,
2. but later it was cut back to 775,
3. but short after that it was decided to build Stug from chassis, 165 was made as Stug instead.
4. November they decided to make IIIN 7,5cm L/24 of the the Mk IIIM, and compleat the order of chassis...
5. Also November Decided 100 of IIIM was to be build as Flamers tanks and put aside for this
6. But 47 chassis of the 1000 IIIM chassis was never made, cansled
7. Of the 1000 intended Mk IIIM model only 250 was build as Mk IIIM, rest as abow describes.
(1)

Stalk

(1)Encyclopedia Of Germans Tanks of World War Two Jentz, / Chamberlain / Doyle
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Real.Romanians




PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: Re: historical back ground on the mod? Reply with quote

stiener wrote:
can anyone give a short historical back ground on the mod please?


For the Romanian troops, try this link http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?language=en


"La Garde meurt et ne se rend pas! Merde!"
Général Cambronne
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karlmortar

Rep: 16.7
votes: 2


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry this one got here by misstake

Sorry! Embarassed


"CC for ever"
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