Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: H2H Submod for SDK and SOC
This topic got lost at the bottom of a new revised map and I did not want to lose any attention to it. I never saw a response to the last post and I would like to make sure that PJ is aware of my thoughts and those of several others on this topic. We have very much enjoyed playing SDK and SOC and would greatly appreciate it if our suggestions for the h2h SUBMOD could be considered. I Capitalized SUBMOD because these are suggestions solely for an H2H SUBMOD and have no bearing on the original Mod. I think the original mod is great for single play and I would not suggest any changes. But for the h2h SUBMOD please see my comments below.
Following are two of the recent posts that I have made on the topic:
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
pzjager wrote:
2) You are right. I am not an H2H player, so I don't know what the H2H players are expecting.
3) I am really interested to know what you would like to improve in the H2H mods. Please be more precise: do you want both sides with up-to-ten units? Equal morale? Equal ammo? Something else?
I amreally interested in that and will look carefully to your comments.
The only limit here is that I will never, for instance, give full ammo to the germans by january 10th..... It would be ridiculous or just arcade.
Cheers, friend
PJ
Ok I have made some inquiries in Pzt regarding h2h play for SDK AND SOC.
NOTE THAT THIS IS FOR AN H2H SUBMOD ONLY and has no impact on the core mod.
But let me make a few comments first on h2h play. This is strictly my opinion but I believe it is widely shared.
1. H2H play is NOTHING like playing the AI so there really is little comparison. As such, I don't think the requirements of h2h play should be measured against how the AI plays.
2. H2H play looks for the ability for either side to win. No one wants to fight a battle or custom op knowing that they will lose. SOC and SDK, both of which are AWESOME mods, it is assumed that the Germans will lose because of ammo and morale settings. That being the case, it is terribly difficult if not impossible to make a custom op with sufficient balance to allow for a possible German victory. And, due to the German Ammo/Morale, there is considerable limitations on the design of custom ops. You can really only design for a German defense.
3. If people are interested in playing the historical GC's or Ops with historical settings, then they can use the standard mod and don't need an h2h submod. Custom Scenario's are rarely if ever based on historical models but are designed for balance and intense fighting between opposing human opponents.
That being said, following are the Pzt responses.
1. Ammo, Ammo, Ammo for the German side. As it stands right now, if the Germans wish to make any type of assault, they have to wait until half way through a battle before even attempting an assault or counterassault because they run into the problem of running out of Ammo. With this being the case it is difficult to create custom ops with a German offensive.
2. Morale - this might be a more serious issue in SOC than in SDK. It seems that units are more prone to surrender and fatigue. This is a considerable handicap for the German side.
3. Rocket Launchers - it was commented that rocket launchers play TOO significant of a role in the game play. It was suggested that maybe they should only be available on a recruit setting.
-*- Kevin's opinion on the Rocket Launchers - If necessary we can always design an op with rules banning the use of such Rocket Launchers if we feel it necessary for the balance of an h2h op.
So in summary, Ammo is the critical component and we request that it be set to full. Morale is a secondary item of consideration. The rocket launchers can be worked with from a rules standpoint.
We don't think anything else needs to be adjusted. The maps are great, the unit counts and composition are just fine and workable, and the hit/kill ratios seem to be good (*edit - see question below).
So taking all the above into consideration, let me reemphasize again that h2h play looks for balance. I realize the Ammo request runs contrary to historical design but we really need the balance to have the flexibility in design and to give the Germans a shot at assaulting and winning. This is only a request for the h2h submod and should have no impact on the core mod.
I've told you on many an occassion that both SOC and SDK are fantastic mods and I really appreciate all the time and talent that went into their creation. I do hope you take our h2h requests into consideration.
*Edit - question on SDK - it seems that the Germans are not as effective in SDK as they are in SOC. Is there a reason for this? Did you update or improve something for the Germans in SOC that you have not gone back to address in SDK yet?
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
Roel thanks for the dialogue. Couple points
1. If someone wants to fight the HISTORICAL settings and create custom ops based upon these historical settings, they can fight the standard mod. But I think we're trying to provide input on a true h2h SUBMOD. I completely respect pj's desires to maintain the historical aspects of the mod and would not even make the above suggestions to the core standard mod. But since he's asking for how he should set the h2h SUBMOD for us multiplayers I provided the input I did.
2. Roel I'm going under the assumption that you fight your h2h battles with a room mate or buddy and can readily make the edits that you suggest bewteen the 2 PC's involved. In my case I'm talking about Wars involving 20-40 peaple at a time and engagements setup with a community friend on a random basis. To undertake the suggestions that you are making and then entrust that your opponents have made the same ones would lead to a lot of crashes due to inconsistencies in versions. I think we need a common H2H SUBMOD to insure consistency and infallibility.
I don't think the AMMO request is unreasonable because Historical h2h play can still be conducted using the base mod. But imho, for the majority of the h2h players looking for some balance, an ammo increase is a reasonable request to make to bring the necessary balance for h2h play.
As it stands today with the current H2H Submod, I don't feel confident that a good balanced custom op can be created for use in a war and a battle between friends. But by increasing the ammo level you will give us a lot of flexibility in custom op design.
Regardless, I will respect whatever PJ decides on.
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: Re: H2H Submod for SDK and SOC
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
This topic got lost at the bottom of a new revised map and I did not want to lose any attention to it. I never saw a response to the last post and I would like to make sure that PJ is aware of my thoughts and those of several others on this topic. We have very much enjoyed playing SDK and SOC and would greatly appreciate it if our suggestions for the h2h SUBMOD could be considered. I Capitalized SUBMOD because these are suggestions solely for an H2H SUBMOD and have no bearing on the original Mod. I think the original mod is great for single play and I would not suggest any changes. But for the h2h SUBMOD please see my comments below.
Following are two of the recent posts that I have made on the topic:
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
pzjager wrote:
2) You are right. I am not an H2H player, so I don't know what the H2H players are expecting.
3) I am really interested to know what you would like to improve in the H2H mods. Please be more precise: do you want both sides with up-to-ten units? Equal morale? Equal ammo? Something else?
I amreally interested in that and will look carefully to your comments.
The only limit here is that I will never, for instance, give full ammo to the germans by january 10th..... It would be ridiculous or just arcade.
Cheers, friend
PJ
Ok I have made some inquiries in Pzt regarding h2h play for SDK AND SOC.
NOTE THAT THIS IS FOR AN H2H SUBMOD ONLY and has no impact on the core mod.
But let me make a few comments first on h2h play. This is strictly my opinion but I believe it is widely shared.
1. H2H play is NOTHING like playing the AI so there really is little comparison. As such, I don't think the requirements of h2h play should be measured against how the AI plays.
2. H2H play looks for the ability for either side to win. No one wants to fight a battle or custom op knowing that they will lose. SOC and SDK, both of which are AWESOME mods, it is assumed that the Germans will lose because of ammo and morale settings. That being the case, it is terribly difficult if not impossible to make a custom op with sufficient balance to allow for a possible German victory. And, due to the German Ammo/Morale, there is considerable limitations on the design of custom ops. You can really only design for a German defense.
3. If people are interested in playing the historical GC's or Ops with historical settings, then they can use the standard mod and don't need an h2h submod. Custom Scenario's are rarely if ever based on historical models but are designed for balance and intense fighting between opposing human opponents.
That being said, following are the Pzt responses.
1. Ammo, Ammo, Ammo for the German side. As it stands right now, if the Germans wish to make any type of assault, they have to wait until half way through a battle before even attempting an assault or counterassault because they run into the problem of running out of Ammo. With this being the case it is difficult to create custom ops with a German offensive.
2. Morale - this might be a more serious issue in SOC than in SDK. It seems that units are more prone to surrender and fatigue. This is a considerable handicap for the German side.
3. Rocket Launchers - it was commented that rocket launchers play TOO significant of a role in the game play. It was suggested that maybe they should only be available on a recruit setting.
-*- Kevin's opinion on the Rocket Launchers - If necessary we can always design an op with rules banning the use of such Rocket Launchers if we feel it necessary for the balance of an h2h op.
So in summary, Ammo is the critical component and we request that it be set to full. Morale is a secondary item of consideration. The rocket launchers can be worked with from a rules standpoint.
We don't think anything else needs to be adjusted. The maps are great, the unit counts and composition are just fine and workable, and the hit/kill ratios seem to be good (*edit - see question below).
So taking all the above into consideration, let me reemphasize again that h2h play looks for balance. I realize the Ammo request runs contrary to historical design but we really need the balance to have the flexibility in design and to give the Germans a shot at assaulting and winning. This is only a request for the h2h submod and should have no impact on the core mod.
I've told you on many an occassion that both SOC and SDK are fantastic mods and I really appreciate all the time and talent that went into their creation. I do hope you take our h2h requests into consideration.
*Edit - question on SDK - it seems that the Germans are not as effective in SDK as they are in SOC. Is there a reason for this? Did you update or improve something for the Germans in SOC that you have not gone back to address in SDK yet?
Pzt_Kevin_dtn wrote:
Roel thanks for the dialogue. Couple points
1. If someone wants to fight the HISTORICAL settings and create custom ops based upon these historical settings, they can fight the standard mod. But I think we're trying to provide input on a true h2h SUBMOD. I completely respect pj's desires to maintain the historical aspects of the mod and would not even make the above suggestions to the core standard mod. But since he's asking for how he should set the h2h SUBMOD for us multiplayers I provided the input I did.
2. Roel I'm going under the assumption that you fight your h2h battles with a room mate or buddy and can readily make the edits that you suggest bewteen the 2 PC's involved. In my case I'm talking about Wars involving 20-40 peaple at a time and engagements setup with a community friend on a random basis. To undertake the suggestions that you are making and then entrust that your opponents have made the same ones would lead to a lot of crashes due to inconsistencies in versions. I think we need a common H2H SUBMOD to insure consistency and infallibility.
I don't think the AMMO request is unreasonable because Historical h2h play can still be conducted using the base mod. But imho, for the majority of the h2h players looking for some balance, an ammo increase is a reasonable request to make to bring the necessary balance for h2h play.
As it stands today with the current H2H Submod, I don't feel confident that a good balanced custom op can be created for use in a war and a battle between friends. But by increasing the ammo level you will give us a lot of flexibility in custom op design.
Regardless, I will respect whatever PJ decides on.
Hi Kevin,
No problem: I am currently working on these H2H submods, with more ammo for the germans, Katyusha's only available in recruit settings etc...
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
In August of 2004, Zappi, Homba, Bambam887, RedScorpion and MOOXE all pitched
in to create this Close Combat site. I would to thank all the people who have visited
and found this site to thier liking. I hope you had time to check out some
of the great Close Combat mods and our forums. I'd also like to thank
all the members of our volunteer staff that have helped over
the years, and all our users that contributed to this site!
