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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:43 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Connected with mooxe for a couple of battles.

Germans had worst possible deployment, and a couple of Fireflies knocked out the Pz IV's from behind hedges. Didn't have the courage to rush troops into the open, attempting a disbandment ... so just held. Also didn't want to get the remaining Firefly into schreck range.
During the last strat move I put BG's all around this powerful German BG, so it would have to fight before getting back to German supply and ammo. And now that its held on this map another turn ... it should be out of fuel.
btw, those piats are useless ... what's their range to fire ... 3 feet  lol

Tried to hold at Caen, but German stuff was too much. Didn't get disbanded though ... lots of cover left in that factory for next time ... lol



TLD Public GC1 save 83.zip
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Allied save 83

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 Filename:  TLD Public GC1 save 83.zip
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Last edited by davidssfx on Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:53 am; edited 3 times in total
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mooxe

Rep: 163.7
votes: 23


PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Benouville - Attacking Allies from East side. 21pz Division low on fuel and ammo. Expecting my five tanks to be out of fuel, planning to use them as bunkers. All efforts are to expand deployment to the North and capture two story house and surrounding shacks, along with road to to Perriers Ridge. My objs are less than 200m from deployment, but I must cover open ground with extremely long lines of LOS. Expecting moderate Allied armour, some piats as well.

Four of my tanks  go down in the first few minutes. They had slow deaths, main guns went then immobilized then pounded to submissions. Davids fireflies were hidden, I could not return fire. Eventually I score a large victory, a shrek teams nails one firefly, finally! David jockies around for shots at my remaining tank with his PIATs and I mow down three PIAT teams. I managed to secure North exit VL and all houses, and I snuck into field to grab another VL. I watch Davids men take up positiongs on the Eastern edge right below my deploy. His other firefly backs off to, proibaly heading for the same spot. I think his plan is to go for broke and try to disband me. I realign my last tank to point south and bring my shrek team over with LOS to the vl. His firefly pops into view on the opposite side of map and gets a long distance side shot to kill my last tank. I am suprised morale hasnt broke. I hang in there, and the battle ends thankfully!

Caen - I plan to rid the allies from this map!! I set up three teams on the southern island. A tank, shrek and mg42 to hold that flank. The remaining 12 teams are all for the top section. 10 assault teams including a shrek, one tank and an 81mm mortar team. I slogged through the cathedral and houses suffering the loss of one complete pioneer team. Davids morale is quite low by now and I have only captured one VL. There was too much ground to fight over before getting to the VLs. Its not looking good for a disband. Battle ends with morale loss to Allies. Thier deployment zone is the size of a thimble for next battle. My advice to allies, disband before the germans do!



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83 (Axis) TLD Public GC.gc
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Hooked up with mooxe for a tough battle

Bayeux - Allied BG was ordered to defend and hold ... and keep enemy supplies and ammo from being distributed from this  important hub city.
Held up one or two German assaults, but was weakened ... followed by a flank attack. An effort to pull back and fill the flank resulted in fire through buildings (what was that) that pinned the effort. A Sherman was knocked out also, and a final assault was held off long enough to save from being disbanded.

excellent tactics to advance by mooxe ... but this Allied BG will fight again at Bayeux.



TLD Public GC 1 save 84 debrief.JPG
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TLD Public GC1 save 84.zip
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Allied save 84

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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

mooxe and I hooked up for some more.

Bretteville - Total Allied Victory ... even when we both agreed upon a truce.

The German BG had no cohesion left, which is the same thing that happened at Amfreville during the last battle there. I'm not sure what the German Bretteville BG's cohesion was before this battle ... but we know for sure the German Amfreville's BG had good cohesion, and then for some unknown reason went to none.
This is bad, but that's not all ... as soon as a BG has no cohesion, the battle will automatically be a total victory for the opposing side ... even when a truce is agreed upon.

A BG's cohesion dropping to none, without reason ... and then battles being total victories, without reason ... is not acceptable for continued game play. I'm suspending my part in this campaign due to these bugs. I see no reason to continue, since the results are not matching what is happening on the battlefield.

Thanks to all who participated ... was a blast, up to this point.
Hopefully this bug can be fixed. All the saved files in this forum can be used by Matrix to confirm this (if they so desire).

we still made the strategic move and played one battle.

St. Marcouf/Azeville



TLD Public GC 1 save 85 debrief.JPG
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TLD Public GC 1 save 85 debrief.JPG



TLD Public GC1 save 85.zip
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mooxe

Rep: 163.7
votes: 23


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:27 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Yeah its quite a huge bug for a campaign. And with cohesion dropping steadily as units are engaged, forced to engaged since Germans are outnumbered, then many more BGs will be lost. They will return in the morning at a depot, without cohesion and be disbanded over and over.
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

I'm wondering about the HEX editing now.

Not discounting that there imay be a proiblem , but other h2h reports and AI campigns haven't had this problem
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mooxe

Rep: 163.7
votes: 23


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

The game was HEX edited once to change hosts from Axis to Allied, maybe 20 saves ago. I am going to run some tests between my laptop and desktop to see if that is the culprit.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
The game was HEX edited once to change hosts from Axis to Allied, maybe 20 saves ago. I am going to run some tests between my laptop and desktop to see if that is the culprit.



That hex edited save was NOT used.

That's the one where we couldn't hook up and then I had a power failure. Later I had that battle with RD_DD using his Axis save
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

I think I've found the problem ... which is NOT a TLD problem.

Let's refer to the BG at Amfreville which had no cohesion before its last battle ... which was said to have been rested for a couple of turns.
I went back through the forums and grabbed Axis saves in order to follow this BG's history ... it is 729/709.

This BG, (729/709) was actually disbanded at Pont L'Abbe when it suffered a total defeat and lost the map against 506/101.

The 729/709 returned to Amfreville after the following strategic turn ... with no cohesion.

refer to Axis saves: 62 and 74

And it appears that these previously disbanded BG's  (with no cohesion) cannot return to hold a map.
Maybe the Bretteville German BG is returning from disbandment also.



729 709 cohesion before battle that disbanded them.JPG
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729 709 cohesion before battle that disbanded them.JPG



729 709 cohesion after returning from disbandment.JPG
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mooxe

Rep: 163.7
votes: 23


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

mooxe wrote (View Post):
The game was HEX edited once to change hosts from Axis to Allied, maybe 20 saves ago. I am going to run some tests between my laptop and desktop to see if that is the culprit.


Right! I remember that.


davidssfx wrote (View Post):

I think I've found the problem ... which is NOT a TLD problem.

Let's refer to the BG at Amfreville which had no cohesion before its last battle ... which was said to have been rested for a couple of turns.
I went back through the forums and grabbed Axis saves in order to follow this BG's history ... it is 729/709.

This BG, (729/709) was actually disbanded at Pont L'Abbe when it suffered a total defeat and lost the map against 506/101.

The 729/709 returned to Amfreville after the following strategic turn ... with no cohesion.

refer to Axis saves: 62 and 74

And it appears that these previously disbanded BG's  (with no cohesion) cannot return to hold a map.
Maybe the Bretteville German BG is returning from disbandment also.


In the 2nd photo strategic moves have already been done and the 729/709 is not being attacked. Thier cohesion should of raised some before you eventually attacked it next turn, or the one after next. Unless it takes a full day (of 4 strat moves!) to gain any cohesion back. On such a shallow and narrow strategic map that is way too long!
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Cohesion and fatigue use an internal system in the game engine called a 'trait'.   When you adjust a 'trait' value the amount of increase / decrease is scaled based on the magnitude of the current value and the magnitude of the change.  The closer to the maximum the current value is, the less of any increase is applied, and vice-versa.

As an example, if you rest a BG overnight it should recover about 1/3 the amount of cohesion it is down from the maximum.  If your BG is at 50% cohesion and your rest overnight it will be at about 66%.  If it rests overnight again it will be at about 77%.  Resting a 1% cohesion BG over night should take it to ~33%.

Resting for one day turn in TLD (with 4 turns per day) will only get you back ~4% cohesion if you're at 50%.

There are only 10 graphical states in tLD so a 4% increase may not register graphically.

Also the cohesion gain from resting only happens when you finish a turn and go on to the next one, not when you hit 'execute' to go from movement to battles.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Well, thanks to mooxe testing some of this stuff ... we know that a BG that has not been disbanded but depletes its cohesion to "no cohesion" will still be able to hold a map under attack.

And thanks schrecken for the cohesion info and help trying to sort this out.

I am personally content enough with what we now know about cohesion and how it affects BG's and disbanded BG's ... to continue playing through this campaign.
So ... game on :)

it would be interesting to know more details about cohesion though, and what governs certain results related to it.
If a disbanded BG returns back the next strategic turn with no cohesion ... why, and what caused it, etc?
If in fact these aren't bugs ... then this information could be used strategically during battles.
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Tejszd wrote (View Post):
davidssfx wrote (View Post):

Allies lost the map, and suffered another BG disbanding ... due to the TLD retreat bug.


By default in TLD the BG retreat option is off.


Hi again Tejszd,
I was looking at info about BG's in the TLD manual and came across an article referring to retreating. In 17.6 it states that BG's will retreat if certain conditions are met.
maybe the retreat option should be on by default?

17.6 Retreat
Battle Groups will retreat when routed from a map (due to morale failure) only under the following circumstances:
The battle ends because of a force morale failure;»»
The losing Battle Group holds at least one exit »»Victory Location when the battle ended;
The exit Victory Location(s) held by the losing Battle Group is »»connected to an empty map controlled by friendly forces; and
The losing Battle Group has lost all its Victory Locations»» because of the force morale differential.(the difference between force morale of the winning and losing Battle Groups).
If all these criteria are met, the losing Battle Group will randomly retreat by one of the available exit Victory Locations to an adjacent map. If not, it is forced to disband. Battle Groups that retreat, can’t move on the following strategic turn.
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schrecken

Rep: 195
votes: 15


PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

hmmm 17.6 from the Wacht am Rhein manual

17.6 Retreat
Battle Groups will retreat when routed from a map (due to morale failure) only under the following circumstances:
The battle ends because of a force morale failure;
The losing Battle Group holds at least one exit Victory Location when the battle ended;
The exit Victory Location(s) held by the losing Battle Group is connected to an empty map controlled by friendly forces; and
The losing Battle Group has lost all its Victory Locations because of the force morale differential (the difference between force morale of the winning and losing Battle Groups).
If all these criteria are met, the losing Battle Group will randomly retreat by one of the available exit Victory Locations to an adjacent map. If not, it is forced to disband. Battle Groups that retreat, can’t move on the following strategic turn.
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RD_DeathDealer

Rep: 4.3
votes: 3


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:47 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Versus Davidssfx at St. Mare Eglise

The battle opened with a miraculous 200+ meter shreck round burning a Sherman to the ground. The rest of the engagement was manuevering for position and bloody hedgerow and building melees. An sMG and MG team managed to secure VLs to the south and west, but shortly afterwards a search-and-destroy team of American infantry arrived to kill them off... and take prisoners. This broke German morale and forced us to give up our ground gained.

Here's the link to the Axis save:

Axis Save #86
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:01 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Quite a battle at St Mere Eglise with RD_DD.

I put a Sherman in the top left corner of the map out in the open, because I thought schreck range was 200 meters. I figured it would take a least two shots, so if there was a schreck over there, I would hammer it before they could get a second shot away. The Sherman was hit with the first shot from 230 meters. ... was a heck of a shot anyway.
After that it was a very tense, hard fought battle.



TLD Public GC 1 save 86 debrief.JPG
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TLD Public GC1 save 86.zip
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RD_DeathDealer

Rep: 4.3
votes: 3


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Versus Davidssfx at Vierrville Sur Mer

The Americans could not knock the Wehrmacht 916th BDE from this town, so what do they do? They send in the Big Red One.

Most of the battle was fought in the hedgerows at the southern end of town. A platoon of Americans attacked to the southwest with tank support and began to punch through our defenses. We feinted an attack up north while shifting our troops to seal off the breakthrough. The attack was stopped and the battle ended after the full 30.



Link to the Axis save:

Axis Save #87


Last edited by RD_DeathDealer on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:39 am; edited 6 times in total
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

Hooked up with RD_DD again ...

Vierville sur Mer - Moved another BG in to attack from another entry point. Coming off the beach exit on this map is nearing impossible, and has cost two disbanded total losses.
Even from this direction things were pretty tough. Lost a Sherman and just hung on to a little gained ground ... but very costly

very well defended.



TLD Public GC1 save 87.zip
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mooxe

Rep: 163.7
votes: 23


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

I'll be back in when I can. Won't be able to play as much since I am back work now.......ugh....
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davidssfx

Rep: 16.8
votes: 8


PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: TLD Multiplayer Grand Campaign proposal Reply with quote

OK ... found where the cohesion error started ... it was at the save 68 strategic turn.
I'm not sure what caused this cohesion error to happen ... perhaps a poor connection or something that caused data to get mixed up.
I've since tested this against AI, and found that the Amfreville BG 729/709 will hold the map even though it has no cohesion.

Also, an Allied BG returned with no cohesion ... so there must be a certain condition by which a BG is disbanded that causes them to return with no cohesion. I will look into its history and see what happened to it.
edit ... update:
The Allied BG that returned was the 231/50. I was testing for the cohesion error and forced this BG to morale fail at Bayeux before time ran out. It returned the next day at the beach with no cohesion.
So I'm thinking, from what I've seen so far ... that a BG which is disbanded before time runs out will return with no cohesion.

Recently disbanded German BG 919/709 returned at Pont L'Abbe with some cohesion, proving not all German BG's return with no cohesion.

So it appears, a BG returning with no cohesion will hold a map if battle results end in its favor. I'm sure there must be some disadvantage to having such a low state of cohesion, but not sure of what that is.  

To correct this cohesion error that occurred during this strategic turn ... the Campaign will start again from this point.

I'll attach this new starting point save

It's a strategic turn ... so I'll have to connect with a regular Axis player to continue on.



TLD Public GC1 corrected cohesion error save 68.zip
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Allied before cohesion error save 68

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Last edited by davidssfx on Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:26 am; edited 4 times in total
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